A little help with "hold"

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bamanicksbd
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A little help with "hold"

Post by bamanicksbd » Mon Apr 13, 2020 4:57 pm

Im in the trained retrieve force fetch whatever name you use with my 16 mo old English setter. He has been through one hunting trialing season and did well. Loves to hunt and hunts hard. Will hunt dead birds but once he locates it he thinks its tome to go find another live one and I can just pick up that dead one and come on.

We started on the table with my fingers in his mouth. No real issues. He accepted this reasonably. Then we went to hold. He doesnt really fight it. I put the dowl in and he will passively hold it ie head up it doesnt fall out but no real action on his part. I move my hand he lets it fall out. Ive been patient gone slow over n over etc. I dont want to physically force his mouth closed so as to cause pain . Im seeking tips or hints or pointers as to how to get him on board with actively holding.

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deseeker
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Re: A little help with

Post by deseeker » Mon Apr 13, 2020 6:23 pm

I use a paint roller -- my dogs like holding soft items better than hard items. Once you have it in his mouth, tap him under the chin to keep his head up and him holding on. If his head drops down --he'll try and spit it out. Keep lightly tapping under his chin until he gives in and holds it without dropping it. If my dogs do it right I treat them ---they LIKE treats :D Works for my dogs. Good luck.

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Re: A little help with

Post by gonehuntin' » Tue Apr 14, 2020 5:57 am

Why are you force fetching him if you don't want to cause him physical pain? Makes no sense.
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Re: A little help with

Post by Steve007 » Tue Apr 14, 2020 1:39 pm

gonehuntin' wrote:
Tue Apr 14, 2020 5:57 am
Why are you force fetching him if you don't want to cause him physical pain? Makes no sense.
Because "force fetching", while the term is commonly used in bird-dog training, is the wrong word. A "trained retrieve" is a better term, and while some discomfort -- depending on the dog-- may be part of it, physical pain -- depending on dog --is not. Except for primitive trainers who cannot adjust to the dog or professional trainers who have to get results fast with no regard for the dog.
Last edited by Steve007 on Tue Apr 14, 2020 1:41 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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gonehuntin'
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Re: A little help with

Post by gonehuntin' » Tue Apr 14, 2020 1:41 pm

What a load of crap. If you are forcing a dog to do something, it's going to involve discomfort.
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Re: A little help with

Post by polmaise » Tue Apr 14, 2020 1:52 pm

No wonder a 'Limey' like me get's confused with the 'Merican' Bird dog owner , and terms . lol
But I reckon I can 'Hold my own' ...with understanding absolute crap ,and useless obvious dribble .
Hold ? , Force Hold? , Retrieve? , Delivery ? ...FF ?
None of the above have anything to do with the OP issue ..but I guess it does in their mind .
I'm done .

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Re: A little help with

Post by Sharon » Tue Apr 14, 2020 2:35 pm

Sounds kike cabin fever is emerging. :)

bamanicksbd: Whatever you call it , unless your dog is extraordinary, some kind of "uncomfortableness" will be involved in teaching a dog to fetch and hold when told imo. This is why many owners have a pro teach the "forced retrieve". I remember my GSP fighting the pro really bad - even bit him. I couldn't have done that , but I ended up with a great retriever.
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Re: A little help with "hold"

Post by bamanicksbd » Tue Apr 14, 2020 6:24 pm

I realize discomfort is part of the process. What I meant was that at the hold stage I don’t want to physically clamp down on his mouth and cause unnecessary pain from having his lips and jowls pinched and bitten at this stage.


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Re: A little help with

Post by gonehuntin' » Tue Apr 14, 2020 6:39 pm

Nor should you have to. Do you know what the jowl pinch is? That should solve your problems.
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Re: A little help with

Post by Urban_Redneck » Thu Apr 16, 2020 6:00 am

I'm in the throes of (reluctantly) force fetching my nearly 4 year old dog that while not soft, is "sensitive". I train mostly on the ground at heel, using a leather pinch collar for correction.

While she is holding the bumper or dowel, I praise my dog 'Goood fetch" stroke her flank lightly then bringing my hand around to her chest for a stroke or two before bringing my hand up and commanding "give" and accepting the bumper. This week I added "sit" which helps keep her head up.

Like all of training, timing is critical. Tapping the bumper while softly saying "fetch" teaches the dog that the only command that releases the bumper is "out" or in my case "give". If she drops the bumper, I correct her and command "fetch" giving a silent 4 count before forcing the bumper back into her mouth and starting over.

Timely correction, command, let her think about it, force her mouth open pinching her cheeks against her molars, in a nutshell. I walk the dog around at heel for a minute or two, between bumpers.

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Re: A little help with

Post by averageguy » Thu Apr 16, 2020 10:32 am

The approach used/taught in the Perfect Retrieve DVD is right up your alley.

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Re: A little help with

Post by Trekmoor » Fri Apr 17, 2020 3:46 am

I realise none of the following is going to help the O.P. much but, as Sharon suggested, I've got a bad dose of cabin fever and need to do something …..even if it is only pointing out the obvious.

I never have any trouble with the retrieving of my older pups and dogs because the "trouble" was dealt with when they were still in the very receptive small puppy stage.
Pups that are greatly encouraged to retrieve long before they have reached 8 months old tend to become very keen retrievers that do not need to be F.F.'d.

The only problem with making very young pups into retrieve fanatics is that they will want to run - in ! I can much more easily "cure" running-in than I can cure spitting out dummies or game or getting pups/dogs to pick up dummies or game .

Start retrieve "work|" early even with the pointing breeds and avoid a lot of work and trouble later on.

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Re: A little help with

Post by Featherfinder » Fri Apr 17, 2020 5:52 am

Well said Trekmoor! "Start them early." And...I imagine we all have that same "fever" but it hasn't reached pandemic proportions yet, although it has gotten...spicey. The moderators are earning their keep these days! :D
Kudos to our moderators, sincerely!
I would like to suggest something to try, just for fun Bammer. When I want to teach a dog not to jump up, I lure the dog with a treat held up above his head, clap my hands on my chest, etc. and let him know what WON'T get him what he wants (a savory treat he can smell). In-other-words, I train for the worse case scenario and work backwards, for this application. You'd be surprised how smart dogs can be. Many will actually sit down when I try to lure them to jump up - nothing said.
With your dog, I'd like you to turn this overtly unpalatable process (unpalatable to you more-so than the dog) into a game. This will alter your persona which dogs feed off of. This will also directly impact the outcome. There is little doubt your dog knows when you are about to retrieve train - a bit like a sunny day and suddenly the sky is all clouds for both of you. :wink:
Trying what I suggest means the dog NEVER gets it wrong....period. Or, you always win - it stays sunny!
So, since you have reached an impasse at "hold", lets go to the success part where he takes the bumper. Now, immediately hold a savory treat - not just kibble - in front of his nose. Your dog will likely already be in the process of dropping the bumper or will do so very early in the process. Make sure you are ready and that he doesn't get the treat! Remember, he never gets it wrong and you always "win". Now, the second the bumper hits the table, calmly pick it up an put it back in his mouth. ...repeat.
OOOOPS!!! I almost forgot!! What the basis for this process is, he doesn't have to get it right for you to get it right! If he keeps dropping it (3-4 tries), the training stops and you keep your treats. Try again later. In-other-words, you NEVER get it wrong. Your dog might not get his treat but that's HIS decision and you are perfectly fine with that (for now). You must believe!
When your dog holds the bumper (it's almost like they say, "Hah...I know this trick!") even for 1 good second, quickly ask for it (Out/Give/Drop...).
Repeat but add time before asking for it...say 5 seconds.
Next, get nasty! Hold your hands up close to his jaw when he has the bumper. If he drops it (obviously withhold treats) , casually/calmly replace it. ...repeat.
NOTE: We have said NOTHING up to this point - just the release word when WE are satisfied. He will learn this "trick" too and once he holds for a few seconds give him a treat. I think you can follow the chain now.
Lastly, you can get all verbal and say anything except, the release word OR come. Everything else goes such as, "OK!, Let's go!, Alright! Good boy!"
If the bumper comes out, casually replace it. ...repeat. When he gets this, (hands swing by the jaws, all the verbal trash) he will get to the point where he will actually stall on the release word...even when you say the, "out/drop/give", whatever. What a great "problem" to have at that juncture, isn't it?!? :)
This is when I typically start taking the dog for a short walk, with the bumper in mouth. But you're not there....yet.
What is key throughout this suggestion is NO speaking other than when you ask for the bumper, are proofing him (Alright/OK/Let's go) OR when he gets something right. This also supports the fact that you always win. How can a dog get something wrong if you haven't ASKED him to do something? :wink:
I have faith in you Sir!!! Get creative and ENJOY yourself with your dog! Isn't that why you got him in the first place?
P.S. When he gets it right, don't rough the dog up, get all gushy and bury your success. If he knows when the skies darken re the current ambience surrounding failed retrieve efforts, he will undoubtedly know when you are pleased too. A simple calm, "Gooood boooy" after with the treat is enough for him.
Keep us posted Sir!
Last edited by Featherfinder on Fri Apr 17, 2020 8:37 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: A little help with

Post by crackerd » Fri Apr 17, 2020 7:59 am

Stop calling him "Bammer," feather, or we'll have to come down there and force fetch that slur out of you by both ears! :wink: - otherwise you and Bill (trekmoor) got ol' Nick going with good advice. Would, however, give the pup something it actually might like to glom onto and carry around instead of a piece of plastic. Maybe not something this good
IMG_0277.JPG
but - ...

MG
Featherfinder wrote:
Fri Apr 17, 2020 5:52 am
Well said Trekmoor! "Start them early." And...I imagine we all have that same "fever" but it hasn't reached pandemic proportions yet, although it has gotten...spicey. The moderators are earning their keep these days! :D
Kudos to our moderators, sincerely!
I would like to suggest something to try, just for fun Bammer. When I want to teach a dog not to jump up, I lure the dog with a treat held up above his head, clap my hands on my chest, etc. and let him know what WON'T get him what he wants (a savory treat he can smell). In-other-words, I train for the worse case scenario and work backwards, for this application. You'd be surprised how smart dogs can be. Many will actually sit down when I try to lure them to jump up - nothing said.
With your dog, I'd like you to turn this overtly unpalatable process (unpalatable to you more-so than the dog) into a game. This will alter your persona which dogs feed off of. This will also directly impact the outcome. There is little doubt your dog knows when you are about to retrieve train - a bit like a sunny day and suddenly the sky is all clouds for both of you. :wink:
Trying what I suggest means the dog NEVER gets it wrong....period. Or, you always win - it stays sunny!
So, since you have reached an impasse at "hold", lets go to the success part where he takes the bumper. Now, immediately hold a savory treat - not just kibble - in front of his nose. Your dog will likely already be in the process of dropping the bumper or will do so very early in the process. Make sure you are ready and that he doesn't get the treat! Remember, he never gets it wrong and you always "win". Now, the second the bumper hits the table, calmly pick it up an put it back in his mouth. ...repeat.
OOOOPS!!! I almost forgot!! What the basis for this process is, he doesn't have to get it right for you to get it right! If he keeps dropping it (3-4 tries), the training stops and you keep your treats. Try again later. In-other-words, you NEVER get it wrong. Your dog might not get his treat but that's HIS decision and you are perfectly fine with that (for now). You must believe!
When your dog holds the bumper (it's almost like they say, "Hah...I know this trick!") even for 1 good second, quickly ask for it (Out/Give/Drop...).
Repeat but add time before asking for it...say 5 seconds.
Next, get nasty! Hold your hands up close to his jaw when he has the bumper. If he drops it (obviously withhold treats) , casually/calmly replace it. ...repeat.
NOTE: We have said NOTHING up to this point - just the release word when WE are satisfied. He will learn this "trick" too and once he holds for a few seconds give him a treat. I think you can follow the chain now.
Lastly, you can get all verbal and say anything except, the release word OR come. Everything else goes such as, "OK!, Let's go!, Alright! Good boy!"
If the bumper comes out, casually replace it. ...repeat. When he gets this, (hands swing by the jaws, all the verbal trash) he will get to the point where he will actually stall on the release word...even when you say the, "out/drop/give", whatever. What a great "problem" to have at that juncture, isn't it?!? :)
This is when I typically start taking the dog for a short walk, with the bumper in mouth. But you're not there....yet.
What is key throughout this suggestion is NO speaking other than when you ask for the bumper, are proofing him (Alright/OK/Let's go) OR when he gets something right. This also supports the fact that you always win. How can a dog get something wrong if you haven't ASKED him to do something? :wink:
I have faith in you Sir!!! Get creative and ENJOY yourself with your dog! Isn't that why you got him in the first place?
P.S. When he gets it right, don't rough the dog up, get all gushy and bury your success. If he knows when the skies darken re the current ambience surrounding failed retrieve efforts, he will undoubtedly know when you are pleased too. A simple calm, "Gooood boooy" after with the treat is enough for him.
Keep us posted Sir!
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Re: A little help with

Post by Featherfinder » Fri Apr 17, 2020 8:31 am

I have been dually corrected and thank you for setting me straight!
I love that puppy!!!! Oh my...…
Good point Crackerd! I personally don't use plastic bumpers/items for early training at all. Too many dogs find either the texture or the smell or both offensive. I like canvas bumpers - puppy size.
Thanks Crackerder. Ooops...!
Oh...and it's not Feather....it's FF. No...not Forced Fetch. :P
Truth be known, sometimes typing out all of Featherfinder can be a pain in the anterior proximity!

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Re: A little help with

Post by Sharon » Fri Apr 17, 2020 12:45 pm

What a great picture Crackerd! Made my morning. :)
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Re: A little help with

Post by Thirdy8special » Fri Apr 17, 2020 11:25 pm

Why do you have to force anything. Sounds like you're treating the dog like a criminal. Get it? Get them to want to do the right thing. Easier & faster.

Teach them 'place' using treats. Then 'fetch', then 'hold'. Once they are in the system, they'll learn fast & you won't need pain.
People teach dogs 100 trick using treats cause its fast and easy to understand for the dog.

Lookup Dr. Dale Hubbard on youtube.

My pup luvs to retrieve, be sent to retrieve, be sent to blind retrieve, hold.... When she was a little stingy with a frozen quail, I immediately took it inside and gave treat as soon as pup brot it back. She holds without telling her but I took quail as soon as she got back to me. No stingyness now.
Its a fast & easy to understand system for the dog.
My setter is small so rolled up shoe liners with the fabric on the outside. Foam liners are very light but gell liners jiggle & bounce more for more enticement.
Good luck whatever system you use.
Last edited by Thirdy8special on Sat Apr 18, 2020 12:21 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: A little help with "hold"

Post by bamanicksbd » Sat Apr 18, 2020 1:43 am

I did start him early in a long hallway and or lane in the yard. Kept it fun and he did well. When we started on birds on check cord I even let him go get the tethered bird if he held steady. He did well with that also.

When we started working birds off lead and the tethered bird fell or if I shot a bird he would go pick it up snd look at me like he was saying ok here it is. Then he laid it down and headed out to find another bird.

We started with some nbha trials obviously retrieving wasnt an issue but my goal was always nstra.

Someone mentioned jowl pinch. Could you please elaborate on the jowl pinch please.

Thanks to everyone for the help.

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Re: A little help with

Post by Featherfinder » Sat Apr 18, 2020 6:07 am

Bammer, you have identified the fix in your report. He picks the bird up BUT would rather go find another bird rather than finish the retrieve. (Not uncommon.) So...take his fun away. If he doesn't bring you the bird, call him in and leash him. Hunting is now OVER.
Your dog wants to go find birds? OK.... Take him just down the road to a nearby training grounds. Bring him out of the truck with a long line secured to the tailgate. Throw a dead bird (closer than the length of the longline), fire a soft blank and send him for it. I'm guessing he'll blow by it and THINK he can run. Or will pick it up and stand there. Be ready so you don't get hurt by the line. Give a guttural, "Aaah!", then reel him in, put him right back in his crate. Take him home.....DONE!
I think you can see where this is going. Make him EARN bird finding/running! When he brings you back the bird, release him from the longline for a fun run. *Withhold killing birds for him early on until he get's the idea fully, but let him have his hunt.
You can reuse that dead bird 1/2 way through his run too. If he freezes or drops the bird on the retrieve, call him in, leash him, take him home.
I don't think it will take long for your dog to figure this out. :wink:
Last edited by Featherfinder on Sun May 17, 2020 5:19 pm, edited 8 times in total.

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Re: A little help with

Post by gonehuntin' » Sat Apr 18, 2020 6:09 am

bamanicksbd wrote:
Sat Apr 18, 2020 1:43 am

Someone mentioned jowl pinch. Could you please elaborate on the jowl pinch please.

Thanks to everyone for the help.

Sent from my SM-N950U using Tapatalk
Here you go. It is an absolute key to a smooth FF and one rarely mentioned. If done well and you don't want to, you never have to go to the ear or ecollar.

JOWLS; THE FORGOTTEN STEP.
Force fetch is so misunderstood on nearly every board that is not a retriever specialty board. People try to short cut it, change it, use too much pressure, use too little pressure. There is a step between HOLD and the EAR PINCH. That forgotten and omitted step is the JOWL PINCH.
Why is the JOWL PINCH so important and how is it done? The JOWL PINCE is the step between HOLD and the EAR PINCH that teaches in a very, very, mild way for the dog to accept pressure and open his mouth. When going from HOLD to the EAR PINCH directly, the dog has no idea WHY his ear is being pinched and what his response should be. They will lock their jaws, won't open them, and wonder why the heck you're hurting them.
The JOWL FETCH is performed after HOLD has been taught. Perform it in the same place, dog at your side or on the table next to you. The trainer places his hand on the dog's muzzle, wrapping over the muzzle. Then the two upper jowls are pinched GENTLY against the canines, the command FETCH given and just enough pressure applied to get the dog to open his mouth. When he does, pull up on the jowl' so they are not pinched between the teeth and the dowel, stick the dowel in and command HOLD. Keep doing this until when you simply touch the dog's muzzle and command FETCH, he pops his mouth open and reaches for the training buck. If he drops the buck, which he shouldn't after HOLD has been instilled, pick up the buck, command FETCH, pinch the jowl, and place the buck back in the student's mouth.
That's it. Once the pup is popping his jowl's open and reaching forward, he's ready for the ear pinch and in a very short time, many times only a day, will take the buck when the command FETCH is given and the ear pinched. I have forced some dog's entirely with the jowl and never gone to the ear, but I don't recommend that. I'm an ear pincher.
Hopefully those reading this can immediately see why it works so well and why the step should not be skipped. It eliminates many of the problems associated with force fetch. In this day of short cuts to dog training, this is one EXTRA step that can actually turn into a short cut.
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Re: A little help with

Post by jasperb » Sat Apr 18, 2020 10:05 pm

deseeker wrote:
Mon Apr 13, 2020 6:23 pm
I use a paint roller -- my dogs like holding soft items better than hard items. Once you have it in his mouth, tap him under the chin to keep his head up and him holding on. If his head drops down --he'll try and spit it out. Keep lightly tapping under his chin until he gives in and holds it without dropping it. If my dogs do it right I treat them ---they LIKE treats :D Works for my dogs. Good luck.
This is what I do, tap them under the chin and don't give them a chance to drop it.

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Re: A little help with

Post by Featherfinder » Sun Apr 19, 2020 7:25 am

Bammer, here's my guess and please, don't hesitate to be critical of my suggestion.
You mentioned your dog has already been run/hunted. You mentioned he has been through one hunting/trialing season and "did well". Am I to guess he did retrieve at that time OR he was allowed not to retrieve (you would work on that later)?
You said he hunts dead (the presumption being that you shot birds for him) and he found them but then chose to hunt on. This is a perfect example of what you have heard me refer to as un-training. The fact is - and assuming you hunted him a few times in the least - he has LEARNED not to retrieve to you.
That is why, I did not question/critique any FF procedures. Here is what I'm alluding to. You can get that dog fully trained on the table using the specified processes including the jowl thing BUT, my bet is the first time you take your dog hunting again, he will do EXACTLY the same thing - decline the retrieve and turn to hunt on. That is precisely why I suggested what I did. I offered remedial training specific to the un-training that you shared - and thank you for being honest by-the-way. It helps big-time re the suggestions.
Again, let me know I was wrong. That would mean your dog is retrieving and that is a win/win, for me too.
I appreciate that you didn't want to lose out on a hunting season and the experience that brought to your dog but if he didn't retrieve, you shouldn't have shot the birds. What some folk don't seem to understand about dogs is that they can't un-learn. They can re-learn - redirect - be reassigned - re-whatever but can't erase experiences completely. Some can be buried, morphed etc. but some just linger and linger. It's SO much easier to avoid the bad experiences when possible where dogs are concerned.

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Re: A little help with

Post by gonehuntin' » Sun Apr 19, 2020 11:30 am

Dog's are place learners. So yes, you may totally ff him and have him look at you and refuse a bird in the field. That's the purpose of force. Now you can go up to him and MAKE him pick up the bird and bring it to you. It's another tool for your training box and now you can see why people ff.
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Re: A little help with

Post by Featherfinder » Sun Apr 19, 2020 12:51 pm

I agree Gonehuntin'. FF has it's place, but as others like Trekmoor and Polmaise will concur, it's not the only way.
Who knows, Bammer could end up forgoing any further table training if his dog chooses to bring him a bird.
Hard to say...

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Re: A little help with "hold"

Post by bamanicksbd » Sun Apr 19, 2020 4:34 pm

Featherfinder wrote:Bammer, here's my guess and please, don't hesitate to be critical of my suggestion.
You mentioned your dog has already been run/hunted. You mentioned he has been through one hunting/trialing season and "did well". Am I to guess he did retrieve at that time OR he was allowed not to retrieve (you would work on that later)?
You said he hunts dead (the presumption being that you shot birds for him) and he found them but then chose to hunt on. This is a perfect example of what you have heard me refer to as un-training. The fact is - and assuming you hunted him a few times in the least - he has LEARNED not to retrieve to you.
That is why, I did not question/critique any FF procedures. Here is what I'm alluding to. You can get that dog fully trained on the table using the specified processes including the jowl thing BUT, my bet is the first time you take your dog hunting again, he will do EXACTLY the same thing - decline the retrieve and turn to hunt on. That is precisely why I suggested what I did. I offered remedial training specific to the un-training that you shared - and thank you for being honest by-the-way. It helps big-time re the suggestions.
Again, let me know I was wrong. That would mean your dog is retrieving and that is a win/win, for me too.
I appreciate that you didn't want to lose out on a hunting season and the experience that brought to your dog but if he didn't retrieve, you shouldn't have shot the birds. What some folk don't seem to understand about dogs is that they can't un-learn. They can re-learn - redirect - be reassigned - re-whatever but can't erase experiences completely. Some can be buried, morphed etc. but some just linger and linger. It's SO much easier to avoid the bad experiences when possible where dogs are concerned.
This is something that I have thought a lot about and I blame myself for giving him mixed signals. The trials we initially ran were Nbha no actual dead bird no retrieve just blank fire. I want him to be finished out and ultimately totally steady to wing, shot and fall. In the past with a different dog I did retrieve first and I thought it made then training steady to wsf more difficult. So in my silly mind it made since to get him steady first then just add the retrieve after wsf. So often things make logical sense to us humans but we are not necessarily gifted with dog logic.

(While at least one of my ex wives has told me I was way more dog than human I think they meant in other than preferable traits. )

Anyway it made sense to me especially since I didn’t want to ff before he had a season under his belt. So now I’m thinking that the point, hold flush shot ok take off and find another one is what I taught him. I have ran NSTRA trials in years past with other dogs and ultimately that is what I want with this one but since he wasn’t really ready on retrieve I thought running a few NBHA trials was a good idea and wouldn’t hurt. I still remember once running my best nstra dog in one of the no kill bird trials and when the pen raised birds got up but didn’t go far and just sat back down my dog thought ok he shot that bird went down right over there I’m going to get it. Ah nope. I should have remembered that experience and reversed the dang logic. I’m sure now this dog thinks ok point hold flush you shot i stood still like you said and I’m not supposed to go to that one you told me to look on and go find a new one.

The older I get the more I realize that the vast majority of issues with bird dogs have been somehow created by me. Reminds me of something that I heard Rick Smith say and that I far too often forget, “every time you work with or touch your dog you teach him something. Wether you mean to or not.”

So in trying to do too much too early I have probably confused him to some extent. Thank goodness most good bird dogs are good enough and have strong enough natural instinct to overcome our mistakes.

As always thanks to everyone who took time to reply.

Oh and the “bammer” label doesn’t bother me at all. I have a dear friend from New York who affectionately calls me her “inbred mouth-breathing alabammer winder licker” friend. To which I just smile and say “Roll Tide, what does your husband think when you scream that in your sleep?”


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Trekmoor
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Re: A little help with

Post by Trekmoor » Mon Apr 20, 2020 3:57 am

Featherfinder wrote:
Sun Apr 19, 2020 12:51 pm
I agree Gonehuntin'. FF has it's place, but as others like Trekmoor and Polmaise will concur, it's not the only way.
There are many thousands of gundogs here in Britain and none of them that I know of were F.F.'d .....and yet they still retrieve.
It makes me wonder why you lads bother to do it ! :lol: Admittedly there is a huge variation in how well the dogs retrieve but I have trained many of the gundog breeds plus a few non-gundog breeds and they all ended up being pretty good retrievers .....good enough for me to win field trials with and good enough for gamekeepers and landowners to welcome me onto their shoots.

Dogs in general, especially among the gundog breeds, are born with varying amounts of retrieve instinct. A good trainer will develop and increase those instincts , a poor trainer will diminish them .

If I ever needed to F.F. a dog then I would do it but I'm a lazy sod so I don't do it .....but my dogs, no matter what breed, still all retrieve.
There must be thousands of lazy folk just like me in Britain , their dogs all retrieve too. :lol:
The older I get, the better I was !

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crackerd
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Re: A little help with

Post by crackerd » Mon Apr 20, 2020 5:57 am

Trekmoor wrote:
Mon Apr 20, 2020 3:57 am
[There must be thousands of lazy folk just like me in Britain , their dogs all retrieve too. :lol:
Shame on y'all, Bill - Brexit is ripping the heart out of the EU having the best tennis ball "collectors" on any continent!

FF, cut it out with the "Bammer" bidness, we're to be addressed as "Gumps" - and proud of it!

MG

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Featherfinder
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Re: A little help with

Post by Featherfinder » Mon Apr 20, 2020 6:57 am

Sorry Crackered. OK...Bam-Bam, we ALL started somewhere. Some of us have more experience at messing things up than others. While even this thick-headed study eventually caught on, it has actually served me. Some of the toughest lessons are the easiest to remember, so there can be an upside.
Don't look back. Capitalize on this to make you a better dog trainer/handler. Challenge yourself with turning this ship towards treasure island!
The greater the challenge the greater the reward (most times anyway).
Plot a planned fix. This is HUGE where your dog is concerned. If I've said this once, I've said it 100 times, "Dogs will not follow a lost leader" and they KNOW if you know!
Trekker and Polly are a wealth of knowledge in those other ways. See if you can tap in Bamick?
I'd LOVE to pick their brains and learn from them too. Of course, travel might make this an even greater challenge these days. Still, with my wife being of Scottish blood, a trip back to Scotland would not be a hard sell. If it happens reasonably soon, I will invite myself to Bill and Robert's school.
Finally, know this Bam-erang. Becoming a decent dog trainer is a journey, not a destination. Enjoy the ride! No-one gets it right 100% of the time, at least, not down here. :wink:
Please note: Names are for effect and in no way is there any denigration, offence, or endearment insinuated. (Take that, Crackerd!!)

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Featherfinder
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Re: A little help with

Post by Featherfinder » Tue Apr 21, 2020 5:46 am

Bam, there is yet another subtle aspect of my early training that I instill in my canine buddies here. The goal is for my dogs to be productive wild bird hunters/gun dogs.
For example, I cut my trainee loose and then after a short run, I recall the dog. I expect an immediate response. When he/she comes RIGHT to me - no fly-bys - I give the dog a gentle stroke on the ribs and tell him softly, "Gooood booooy." Then after a short pause, I release the dog again.
This will happen cyclically (perhaps 2-3 times) per run. The dogs soon learn that, "Yeah, the boss is a pain in the asterisk BUT I also know I will get cut loose again so....let's get it over FAST."
I have to laugh at folk that say, "My dog has learned that when we head for the truck he veers off and heads the other way. He won't come to me unless I MAKE him."
No kidding?!? Haven't you - in fact - taught the dog to do that? They aren't that stupid. Instead, with what I have suggested (intermittent recall) , you can recall the dog in the field and you still get a reliable recall, even in proximity of the truck. I also recall a distance from the truck as a preliminary step, put a lead on the dog and "heel" him back. It's all part of being a well-behaved bird dog. When you are done, you never have the "dodge the truck" issue.
You start to see that not only do you have a reliable recall, when you DO drop a shot bird for him to bring to you, the dog's perception becomes, "Oh yeah...I know this one. I go to him (quickly) and then he cuts me loose again!"
Yet another reason why I LOVE working with young dogs.
Yeah...I know what 75% of you are thinking. I don't want a boot licker for a bird dog, especially a trialer/wild bird hunter. Well, it has NOTHING to do with the end result re range/application, trust me. What it does provide is a consistent reliable recall and supports an expeditious retrieve. :wink:
Bam...the bill is in the mail. :lol:

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bamanicksbd
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Re: A little help with "hold"

Post by bamanicksbd » Wed Apr 22, 2020 1:41 pm

Thank you to everyone who took time to offer help and suggestions. One thing I have always loved about the real bird dog people that I have the pleasure of knowing is their willingness to take the time to help others who are trying to do things the right way.

Progress wise we are making progress. Nick is holding better and we are starting to walk up and down the table with the buck in his mouth.

In closely examining my steps I realize that I am using the jowl pinch each time I put the buck into his mouth but I havnt put a specific label to it or attached a specific command to it. In thinking about it further I can see the benefit of adding the step of attaching a fetch command with the jowl pinch after hold and before ear or toe stimulation to initiate the dog to reach for the buck on his own. I’m hoping to be there within the next few days.


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bamanicksbd
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Re: A little help with "hold"

Post by bamanicksbd » Wed Apr 22, 2020 1:50 pm

For the benefit of my wife and or anyone else who might think that poor Nick is being mistreated during the training process Im updating this pic that I took shortly after we came in from this mornings session. You can all see that he does not appear traumanized or stressed about things. Image

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bamanicksbd
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Re: A little help with "hold"

Post by bamanicksbd » Sun May 03, 2020 9:27 pm

Hoping to share a short vid clip of our progress. Ive resized x3 because said file to large so no idea what ive ended up with. //cloud.tapatalk.com/s/5eaf8914b5d ... 852451.mp4

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