Another strange behavior on point

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Thirdy8special
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Another strange behavior on point

Post by Thirdy8special » Mon Apr 06, 2020 4:23 pm

First time trainer, got pup at 7weeks, female pup now 1yr1mth old.
Pup points, but sometimes moves to see bird release.
I first used pheasant size release and tried to hide but pup may have got used to seeing release at least 50% of the time. Pup creeped, usually around to see release. I probably let pup get too close as well.

The last few times(2or3weeks) I've limited to 1min point or less so pup won't creep and gave verbal praise. Released bird and dog wants to but doesn't chase but watches. I throw dead quail and pup fetches. But pup has whined & sat down on 2 points. Maybe cause she's frustrated because she can't see release/bird?
I'm not sure how I should correct this: keep points short and successful? Release bird if she sits? More reps per day/at least 3 birds/more?
I don't use ecollar. I do lift her back up. I flush bird at this time if she holds. If we work a 2nd or 3rd bird, pup is better on 2nd as far as not creeping and pointing further away.
I did buy perfect start dvd and am doing my part better about releasing bird if pup moves after pointing or getting too close for the last 2or 3 months (wish I had kept a journal). I do have pigeons that return to coop.
Thx for any help/questions!
Texas JAC Lewellins(FB)

averageguy
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Re: Another strange behavior on point

Post by averageguy » Tue Apr 07, 2020 7:15 am

Reading your post and hearing you have watched the Perfect Start DVD, I kinda think you know what the problem is here.

You have been letting the pup road in on the scent cone towards the launcher until it pointed vs launching the bird the moment the pup indicates it smells the bird.

The value of launchers, used correctly, is we can present a training bird in a precise known location, in a known wind direction with complete control of the bird. The moment the pup hits the scent cone is the time to launch the bird if the pup does not snap down hard on point and hold point.

Not once do you allow the pup to creep towards the launcher waiting for it to point. Letting the pup creep, crowd and worse see the launcher is training all the wrong behaviors.

Try 100% consistently using the launcher as instructed in the DVD you have studied and see what happens. Train in cover where the location of the launcher is not obvious but the wind moves well. I only do this work in a good and steady wind and commonly use hilltops. It makes it so much easier for a dog to hit the scent hard and for you to read it when it happens. A day with weak and swirling wind is a good day to work on something different vs this.

Bring your pup in at a cross wind angle to the launcher which makes it immediately obvious when they smell it as their head turns into the scent cone towards the launcher/bird. The remote is in your hand and thumb on the button ready to launch the bird if the pup does not come down hard on point at that moment.

I remain 100% silent while doing this work.

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Featherfinder
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Re: Another strange behavior on point

Post by Featherfinder » Tue Apr 07, 2020 7:35 am

Averageguy, I haven't seen the Perfect Start series so... I ask you, "Does the Perfect Start recommend you wait to train until the dog is older or does it at all recommend WHEN as well as how to start?"
Perhaps it's a general How-To series? Admittedly, I don't know.

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Re: Another strange behavior on point

Post by birddogger2 » Tue Apr 07, 2020 8:12 am

Thirdy8special wrote:
Mon Apr 06, 2020 4:23 pm
First time trainer, got pup at 7weeks, female pup now 1yr1mth old.
Pup points, but sometimes moves to see bird release.
I first used pheasant size release and tried to hide but pup may have got used to seeing release at least 50% of the time. Pup creeped, usually around to see release. I probably let pup get too close as well.

The last few times(2or3weeks) I've limited to 1min point or less so pup won't creep and gave verbal praise. Released bird and dog wants to but doesn't chase but watches. I throw dead quail and pup fetches. But pup has whined & sat down on 2 points. Maybe cause she's frustrated because she can't see release/bird?
I'm not sure how I should correct this: keep points short and successful? Release bird if she sits? More reps per day/at least 3 birds/more?
I don't use ecollar. I do lift her back up. I flush bird at this time if she holds. If we work a 2nd or 3rd bird, pup is better on 2nd as far as not creeping and pointing further away.
I did buy perfect start dvd and am doing my part better about releasing bird if pup moves after pointing or getting too close for the last 2or 3 months (wish I had kept a journal). I do have pigeons that return to coop.
Thx for any help/questions!
I think your dog just might need a change of pace. The youngster is roading in and creeping, probably because it kinda knows where the traps will be and can probably spot them.

Given the fact that the pup is standing and not chasing, here is a method you can try, especially if you have multiple launchers and pigeons. I first read about this in a book by Jim Marti(Burnt Creek Method). It is a stop to flush method.

You place the launchers in the training field and bring the dog in on a checkcord As the dog covers ground you pop a launcher where the dog can see the bird flush "wild". If the dog does not "assume the position", you pop the checkcord to stop the dog as the pigeon flies away. It is especially helpful if the pigeon does a loop around before heading back to the coop.

Then you go through the normal routine, stroking the dog up, pushing from the rear, pushing down on the front shoulders(both pushing exercises are to cause the dog to resist and thus tighten up). You could then simulate a flush and either pop another launcher or slip a bird out of your carry pouch and drop it behind you to let it "flush".

The beauty of this method is that there is no scent for the dog to road in on. The first clue for the dog is the sight of the bird flying away.

Given what your pup is doing incorrectly and what it is doing right...some stop to flush drills might help to connect the dots.

RayG

Thirdy8special
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Re: Another strange behavior on point

Post by Thirdy8special » Tue Apr 07, 2020 10:29 am

Its difficult to tell when they're hunting and when they're honing in cause she knows to head into the wind. For a little 32lb setter, she's got a lot of drive/plow. I guess if I have any question about it, release bird. That'll pay off by backing her off bird eventually.
Question : why does she sit.....frustration cause she can't see bird?.....doesn't really know what to do?...other?
Thanks for your thots. Keep them coming!
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Re: Another strange behavior on point

Post by shags » Tue Apr 07, 2020 12:21 pm

I looked at FB in your sig. Is that your pup, the little tricolor?

I see that in your photos you have her sitting for her retrieving drills. Maybe she sits around birds because in her mind, anticipation = sit. Sit to wait for the retrieve, sit to wait for that bird to go. It's what I'd call a default position, somewhere to go when the dog hasn't figured out an alternative.

That's all I got 8)

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Re: Another strange behavior on point

Post by cjhills » Tue Apr 07, 2020 12:31 pm

It Is hard to tell what is going on from the little amount of info.
I think there is a good chance the dog is intimidated by the launcher. Maybe from the noise of the pheasant launcher. There is only one reason for a to sit on point and that is pressure. Not what you think is pressure, but what she thinks is pressure. The sound of the launcher is intimidating to some dogs. Especially pheasant size. What birds are you using? I hope not pheasants. For sure do not let her get to close. you are going to need to work on her confidence. Might have to let her chase and launch some birds when she is close enough see them but on the upwind side so she don't get scent. Maybe lightly plant some birds. Do not say anything at this time and try to let her figure it out. Let her run free if you use a check cord let her drag it. If she has not done a lot of free running let her do that with out birds....CJ

averageguy
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Re: Another strange behavior on point

Post by averageguy » Tue Apr 07, 2020 1:05 pm

Thirdy8special wrote:
Tue Apr 07, 2020 10:29 am
Its difficult to tell when they're hunting and when they're honing in cause she knows to head into the wind. For a little 32lb setter, she's got a lot of drive/plow. I guess if I have any question about it, release bird. That'll pay off by backing her off bird eventually.
Question : why does she sit.....frustration cause she can't see bird?.....doesn't really know what to do?...other?
Thanks for your thots. Keep them coming!
Thats why you purposefully work in a cross wind because it is not difficult to tell when they hit the scent cone. They turn at a right angle immediately towards the scent. I do this work at a much younger age and so the pup is generally just dragging a check cord, but if need be keep the check cord in your hard and bring the dog in at a cross wind angle and it will be obvious when she smells it.

On the launcher noise potentially scaring her, I always introduce a dead bird first, then I put the dead bird in the launcher in the wide open on gravel, let the pup see it from a distance while I am holding it on a check cord, pop the launcher and let the pup run and get the dead bird when it plops up and back down on the gravel. I do it at least twice observing the pup to make sure it is stimulated by the launcher noise leading to a bird. Never had one have any fear but if I did I would continue that type of conditioning until the pup was positively stimulated vs alarmed by the noise. This drill will tell you if your dog has anxiety around the launcher noise.

As noted a video would give all a better read on the situation.

FF,

Jon is working with client dogs and so most are 6-10 months old in his video. He does some bird introduction with a GSP that looks like it might be only 4 months old. I have seen pups that young show up in his Start/Finish Clinic.

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Featherfinder
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Re: Another strange behavior on point

Post by Featherfinder » Tue Apr 07, 2020 2:44 pm

Thanks AV! Yup...that's great!

Thirdy8special
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Re: Another strange behavior on point

Post by Thirdy8special » Tue Apr 07, 2020 6:46 pm

Worked 4 pigeons this evening. She pointed each time for 5secs but moved to the left "inorder to see/other" and I released bird. 4th bird she held for 20sec (a little longer) and then moved to left/I released bird. She didn't chase as we have worked on the barrel 4or 5 times (10birds).

Shags, yes she is the tricolor. Thx for looking. My dog fb page has video of her. I'll video tomorrow so yall can see what she's doing.
On a side note...she found the unfrozen quail we lost Sunday. Fetched it 3 times to hand. I put it in the freezer and got out a frozen one and she fetched it to hand 5 times.
I've read not to teach a pointer to sit so maybe that is her failsafe position.

What do yall think....see if things change over 4 birds a day for a week? Other?
Thx for everyone's help!!!
Texas JAC Lewellins(FB)

Thirdy8special
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Re: Another strange behavior on point

Post by Thirdy8special » Tue Apr 07, 2020 8:00 pm

I don't think she's release shy, definitely not gunshy or tractor shy...rides all the time.
Grass is tall so she can't see quail size release. I'm sure I could use pheasant size releases now. She pointed pretty quick today so not going too far into the scent cone. I just think she wants to see the release \bird.

A long time ago I was using tethered pigeons that could fly 30ft away....probably tethered them too long. Have 6 experienced pigeons and 3 rookies(make that 2 rookies as released one rookie by the coop...pretty flyer).
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averageguy
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Re: Another strange behavior on point

Post by averageguy » Wed Apr 08, 2020 7:25 am

Thirdy8special wrote:
Tue Apr 07, 2020 8:00 pm
I don't think she's release shy, definitely not gunshy or tractor shy...rides all the time.
Grass is tall so she can't see quail size release. I'm sure I could use pheasant size releases now. She pointed pretty quick today so not going too far into the scent cone. I just think she wants to see the release \bird.

A long time ago I was using tethered pigeons that could fly 30ft away....probably tethered them too long. Have 6 experienced pigeons and 3 rookies(make that 2 rookies as released one rookie by the coop...pretty flyer).
This can be easily remedied based on this last post. You are not looking for "she pointed pretty quick, so not too far into the scent cone" rather you are looking for an immediate hard point the moment she indicates she smells the bird. Cross wind is your Friend, use it. If she does not, immediately launch the bird. Do that consistently and see how things improve. Many and most young dogs will advance into the scent cone in these setups if you ever let them do it the first time. With a launcher you have complete control over this situation you just have to use it.

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Re: Another strange behavior on point

Post by Thirdy8special » Wed Apr 08, 2020 8:16 am

Sorry if I miss someone's message as there is a delay in sending the message and the message actually being posted in the thread.

I'll definitely do better about releasing bird if pup doesn't immediately point but instead goes in the scent cone too far. I watch the grass for wind direction/lick my finger but will have to get thread, survey tape and hold directly over the release.
Its a problem (s) I've caused so hopefully it can be straightened out.

Thx everyone!!!
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Re: Another strange behavior on point

Post by DonF » Wed Apr 08, 2020 8:55 am

averageguy wrote:
Tue Apr 07, 2020 7:15 am
Reading your post and hearing you have watched the Perfect Start DVD, I kinda think you know what the problem is here.

You have been letting the pup road in on the scent cone towards the launcher until it pointed vs launching the bird the moment the pup indicates it smells the bird.

The value of launchers, used correctly, is we can present a training bird in a precise known location, in a known wind direction with complete control of the bird. The moment the pup hits the scent cone is the time to launch the bird if the pup does not snap down hard on point and hold point.

Not once do you allow the pup to creep towards the launcher waiting for it to point. Letting the pup creep, crowd and worse see the launcher is training all the wrong behaviors.

Try 100% consistently using the launcher as instructed in the DVD you have studied and see what happens. Train in cover where the location of the launcher is not obvious but the wind moves well. I only do this work in a good and steady wind and commonly use hilltops. It makes it so much easier for a dog to hit the scent hard and for you to read it when it happens. A day with weak and swirling wind is a good day to work on something different vs this.

Bring your pup in at a cross wind angle to the launcher which makes it immediately obvious when they smell it as their head turns into the scent cone towards the launcher/bird. The remote is in your hand and thumb on the button ready to launch the bird if the pup does not come down hard on point at that moment.

I remain 100% silent while doing this work.
Everything ya need to know right there! Great post!
I pity the man that has never been loved by a dog!

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DonF
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Re: Another strange behavior on point

Post by DonF » Wed Apr 08, 2020 9:13 am

Something was said about sitting on point. I've always felt that sitting in a situation like that indicate's confusion in the dog. If your using the trap properly, sitting can be over come. You keep your eye's on the dog at all times. You know exactly where the bird is and what the wind is doing. You don't need to search for the bird, WATCH YOUR DOG! It move's anything at all, pop the bird. In order to sit the dog has to move. Your not watching the dog you'll likely not catch it first starting to sit! Be a very short time and your dog should quit sitting. The value of the remote launcher is that YOU control the bird and you can make it act like a wild bird. You do that and the dog soon learns that what cause's the bird to fly is it's, the dog's, own movement. You are supposed to be teaching the dog that! I watch a lot of people go in front of the dog and kick cover They are trying to get the dog to fail so they can correct it, you'll take the style out of your dog doing that! No game bird I know of other than wild pheasant in very dense cover will allow that. Pay attention to what your training! Another problem with the remote and a lot of people is they let the dog get into the scent cone and actually move toward the bird before popping the bird; they want to give the dog just one more chance to point, DO NOT DO THAT! Dog is in the scent cone you pop the bird quick as you can. Within a very short time the dog will point faster than you can pop the bird in which case you don't till the dog move's anything at all. Very simple process that require's you teach the dog how to get what it want's rather than to do what you want. Bottom line is you and the dog want the same thing, show it how to get what it want's and you will get what you want!
I pity the man that has never been loved by a dog!

Thirdy8special
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Re: Another strange behavior on point

Post by Thirdy8special » Wed Apr 08, 2020 10:56 am

DonF, thx for addressing the 'sitting situation '.
Can't wait to get home and work that pup. Wish I had more birds/more reps in a session.

What should I do if dog doesn't move& does everything correctly? How long should should I let pup (1.1yr old is hardly a pup) jold point?

Thx!
Texas JAC Lewellins(FB)

Thirdy8special
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Re: Another strange behavior on point

Post by Thirdy8special » Wed Apr 08, 2020 1:27 pm

Thx everyone! Rereading everything before next training session this evening.
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Re: Another strange behavior on point

Post by Thirdy8special » Wed Apr 08, 2020 6:01 pm

4 4sec points then move to the left/release bird
We'll keep working on it.
I usually go the left (walk east, wind coming from south so pup turns right into wind. I'll change it up so I'm on the lh side of pup walking west so I can possibly block the left hand circling manuerver of pup....gotta do something different!
 
Thx
I'll video tomorrow.
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Re: Another strange behavior on point

Post by setterpoint » Fri Apr 10, 2020 9:26 am

pretty simple fix but you need a launcher, as soon you see the dogs scents the bird, if your dog point launch the bird
it will not take long your dog will understand if it doesnt point the bird flushes, if your dog points and then trys to move any at all launch the bird
once the dog is pointing and staying pointed take longer befor you go in and flush the bird makeing the dog hold longer and longer

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Re: Another strange behavior on point

Post by setterpoint » Fri Apr 10, 2020 8:18 pm

im sorry i though it read 7 mo old

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