Stubborn pup

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Fonzie
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Stubborn pup

Post by Fonzie » Fri Apr 03, 2020 5:44 pm

So we got a GSP pup (7 months old not) last month. We’ve been working on obedience training and tossing some bumpers at him. At first things were good he was listening (sit and stay), bumpers I’d toss he’d bring back. Well now total left turn! He’s become SUPER stubborn. He will sit but I have to basically holler at him to do so, retrieving bumper he will sometimes bring back other he will either not show interest or run off with it. Really just wanting him for retrieving. Any help would be much appreciated.

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Re: Stubborn pup

Post by cjhills » Fri Apr 03, 2020 9:02 pm

Fonzie:
Stubborn is a human word. It is not a dog word. Dogs do what they feel is in their best interest in the moment. They do not do things to upset you.
From your post I can not tell if you just got a 6 month old pup or if you got a younger pup and he is now 7 months either way the dog needs to be train to respond to a command. Hollering is not going to get the job done. You would probably do best to use treats to encourage him to obey. Start with a simple command like sit, have him on a leash tell him sit and give him a treat when he does it. Do this a few times a day for short periods. Walk him on the leash stop tell him sit give him a treat. when he learns to sit on command phase out the treat. Repetition until you get a conditioned response. Do not try to tell him to a sit from a distance until he will do it beside you every time. don't give him a chance to disobey. Do the same thing with other commands you want him to obey. Don't over do it keep his tail wagging. I don't use treats but they will work for you.
If he does not want to retrieve a dummy forget it for awhile. If he does quit when he is wanting more. There is plenty of time to get a retrieve later.
Repetition will get it done......Cj

birddogger2
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Re: Stubborn pup

Post by birddogger2 » Sat Apr 04, 2020 9:03 am

Fonzie -

cJ nailed it.

Patience, persistence, insistence.

Be consistent with your training and do not settle for less than 100% reliable response and you both will be fine.

RayG

averageguy
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Re: Stubborn pup

Post by averageguy » Sat Apr 04, 2020 9:56 am

You have been given good advice but it would take a whole lot of typing to cover this sufficiently. Buy yourself some hands on help from a good trainer to train you on how to train your dog. Will be the best money you ever spent.

Joining a local Obedience training group would go a long ways in that area, Most of the trainers leading those groups also offer 1:1 sessions. Getting with a NAVHDA Chapter or Retriever Training Group might land you an excellent mentor and training partner for your field work.

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bobman
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Re: Stubborn pup

Post by bobman » Sat Apr 04, 2020 10:49 am

Get a lab and find the GSP a good hunting home with someone that will appreciate his instincts

GSP s will do a decent job retrieving but they rarely enjoy repeated drilling on retrieving, that is not where their main bred in instincts are, they are bred to range and hunt not sit and wait to retrieve.

FWIW I love GSPs and labs they are both great breeds and I’ve owned a bunch of both of them over the last 50 years

GSP doesn’t stand for German Shorthaired Retriever, there’s a reason
currently two shorthairs, four english pointers, one Brittany, one SPRINGER a chihuahua and a min pin lol

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Re: Stubborn pup

Post by DonF » Sat Apr 04, 2020 10:55 am

Probably the best way to start a pup retrieving in play retrieving in a hallway, no where for the pup to go but back to you. Next best I've found is using a check cord. Start close and work out to the end of the CC. Toss a object maybe 6' and say your command at the same time. Command normally not needed except to teach the command word. Just toss and most pup's will chase whats thrown. Soon as the pup get's there, pull it back gently and say your recall command. Again command is not needed other than to teach the command word. If the pup doesn't pick up the object right away reel it back in, get the object yourself and do it again. Won't take much and the pup will snatch it up knowing it has to if it want's it. Use what you know the pup will do to teach it what you want. Puppy's chase thing's, your pup will chase a tossed object! When they catch up they grab thing's, when it get's to the object it will grab it, use that to your advantage. Once they get it, they hesitate to let go, start pulling it in and it won't let go. Call it to you and it has no recourse but to come to you cause your pulling it that way. Set your puppy up to succeed! Only do the exercise a few time and quit for that session, leave the pup wanting more and it won't quit.
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Re: Stubborn pup

Post by averageguy » Sat Apr 04, 2020 12:11 pm

Fonzie , Following on Don F's posts,

You can see a Hallway and an outdoor Tunnel setup being used to condition retrieving on my current puppy in my New Pup thread. Perhaps you have a wall where you could setup something similar. I have been using them successfully for decades now. Without seeing your pup none of us know the degree to which the pup is or is not interested in retrieving at this point. Too many reps can easily put a pup off from playing the retrieve game.

I have never regretted paying for some hands on time with a good pro trainer working with me and my dogs over the years. Nor have I ever regretted investing in good training books, or now days and better, videos. Bill Hillman has some excellent videos showing how to build enthusiasm in a puppy relative to retrieving. Lots of it can be found for free on YouTube.

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Featherfinder
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Re: Stubborn pup

Post by Featherfinder » Sat Apr 04, 2020 12:17 pm

Fonzie, your dogs sounds like....a GSP. :lol:
You have some very good advice already, above. That said, you will have a long and arduous journey rife with hurdles if you don't have a clear plan/template moving forward. To me, it sounds like you know where you're at today and know what you want to end up with. Do you have a clear understanding of how to get from here to the finish? If not, you might want to acquire a process that you can use with clear objectives/milestones.
Congrats with your new pup and wishing you all the best!

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Re: Stubborn pup

Post by Fonzie » Sat Apr 04, 2020 2:20 pm

Thank you all for the great advice, we got Rusty when he was 6 months old from a guy wanting to rehome him. We kicked around the idea of a work breed just due to ya loving dove hunting. A lab was in that mix along with a setter. Anyways after seeing a good friends pointer working on a dove hunt we decided that’s what we wanted. Note we knew that not the exact intent for the breed but I think it’ll work. Rusty is a REALLY calm pup for a GSP like super calm.

I have a start, obedience being key and where we’d like to finish. But how to get there is what I need to learn. It’ll will definitely be a learning experience for both. I did order some books and hopefully they get here today or Monday.

I’ve looked for trainers or a retrieve club close to me but have had zero luck. Note I’m in Fort Worth just Incase anyone knows of a club.

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Re: Stubborn pup

Post by shags » Sat Apr 04, 2020 3:37 pm

Contact these folks, Lone Star GSP Club. Good chance someone will get you going in the right direction

http://www.lsgspc.com/contact-us.html

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Re: Stubborn pup

Post by birddogger2 » Sat Apr 04, 2020 3:45 pm

Shags -

You beat me to it.

There is also a NAVHDA chapter in Lindale, TX which appears to be reasonably close to Dallas/ Ft. Worth.

Good luck with your youngster.

RayG

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Featherfinder
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Re: Stubborn pup

Post by Featherfinder » Sat Apr 04, 2020 4:30 pm

NAVHDA's handler-dominant show-ish concept attracts a certain clientele. I guess it depends on what you aspire for your GSP.
I think Shags has you pointed in the right direction.

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Re: Stubborn pup

Post by averageguy » Sat Apr 04, 2020 5:48 pm

Featherfinder wrote:
Sat Apr 04, 2020 4:30 pm
NAVHDA's handler-dominant show-ish concept attracts a certain clientele. I guess it depends on what you aspire for your GSP.
I think Shags has you pointed in the right direction.
NAVDHA attracts hard core wild bird hunters for the most part, especially in the States which have wild birds to hunt.

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Re: Stubborn pup

Post by birddogger2 » Sat Apr 04, 2020 6:06 pm

averageguy wrote:
Sat Apr 04, 2020 5:48 pm
Featherfinder wrote:
Sat Apr 04, 2020 4:30 pm
NAVHDA's handler-dominant show-ish concept attracts a certain clientele. I guess it depends on what you aspire for your GSP.
I think Shags has you pointed in the right direction.
NAVDHA attracts hard core wild bird hunters for the most part, especially in the States which have wild birds to hunt.
In my area Navhda is most definitely a mix of members with very different goals for their dogs. Some are pretty hard core hunters, some are pretty hard core testers and some are principally show folks or hunters who want their dog to hunt and retrieve with some competence.

It does not take long to sort out who is pursuing which set of goals. Their dogs will tell you who is doing what.

My only hesitation regarding Navhda is that some of the more serious tester type folks tend to mold their dogs into a much more regimented and controlled animal than I personally prefer. I see the same type of behavior in many AKC Master Hunter dogs.

Nice dogs, biddable, good hunters, but a little too mechanical for my taste.

I do not have any first hand experience, but it is my understanding that many folks who follow the German system also tend to have dogs which are more regimented as well. Please correct me if I am wrong.

RayG

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Re: Stubborn pup

Post by averageguy » Sat Apr 04, 2020 6:23 pm

I live in the MW, from here West NAVHDA is increasingly made up of hard core wild bird hunters.

My breed is GWPs. It is not by accident that my pups have all come from Idaho, Oregon and Montana.

The NAVHDA GWPs out west are bred for far more range, run and style than the east coast dogs are (on the average). When all you have to hunt is waterfowl, woodcock, a dwindling to nothing population of Ruffed Grouse and released birds you are not likely to see benefit in a dog which will range out. Hunting wild Chukars, Sharptails and Huns on a regular basis breeds a different hunter, handler, trainer and breeder is my observation.

Here in the MW I see some very strong NAVHDA lines of GSPs. Many of the Breeders of those lines do everything with their dogs in terms of hunting, testing and running trials. Their dogs are not AA but they are no plodding over handled boot polisher by any means either.

Dogs which can shift gears between a high degree of trained control in one aspect of a test e.g. steadiness by the blind, heeling evaluation, a similar manner of control in the Field portion e.g WSF as would be seen in AKC, and very little control e.g. duck search where the dog works completely independently of the handler, retrieve of dragged duck or pheasant, are what it takes to earn top scores in all areas of a NAVHDA test. And without a 4 in Duck Search a dog cannot be awarded a Prize 1 overall.

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Re: Stubborn pup

Post by birddogger2 » Sun Apr 05, 2020 12:10 pm

averageguy wrote:
Sat Apr 04, 2020 6:23 pm
I live in the MW, from here West NAVHDA is increasingly made up of hard core wild bird hunters.

My breed is GWPs. It is not by accident that my pups have all come from Idaho, Oregon and Montana.

Point taken. Horses for courses. I would absolutely expect midwestern pointing dogs to cover more ground. If I was out there, I would want a pointing dog that would range out as well, regardless of breed.

I just wanted to inform the OP that not all Navhda chapters are alike, especially in different areas of the country. You see what you see in your area...I see what I see in mine.

In areas in the East, where wild birds are scarce or in some cases, virtually non-existent, being a hard core bird hunter is well nigh impossible these days, with the possible exception of those who pursue the grouse. As far as I know, the main pointing breed used extensively for grouse would be the English Setter with a smaller number of Pointers, GSP's and Britts. Grouse trials are populated by Setters and pointers almost exclusively. Shorthairs and Brittanys very rarely compete in these stakes.

I could be wrong but I do not see setters and pointers very much in my local Navhda chapters. Frankly, the breed I have seen participating in Navhda is overwhelmingly the GSP, with a few V's a few Weims, a Wire, pudelpointer, Britt, DD or Munsterlander here and there and that is pretty much it.


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Re: Stubborn pup

Post by averageguy » Sun Apr 05, 2020 1:32 pm

RayG,

My generic caution to anyone I am speaking with is to observe and sort through the people you choose to listen to no matter what the dog venue you are at.

It is pretty easy to get bad advice and you have to know something in order to know it is bad advice is the challenge in that. How a person handles their dog and how their dog performs is the best information on whether they are someone worth listening to. I have seen some Blind leading the Blind.

The NAVHDA chapter I frequent the most is in Iowa and all the Officers hunt wild pheasants and quail in their home state several times a week through the entire season and they travel to hunt western bird species annually. They are life long dog men and well equipped to give good guidance.

There are easily similar type folks in Texas Chapters where Fonzie and his pup lives as there are excellent wild quail, dove and waterfowl hunting opportunities there and in bordering states in every direction.

Fonzie informed us his primary use of the pup is for Retrieving. NAVHDA is right up that alley as it would be the foremost venue emphasizing retrieving for pointing dog breeds in existence. A dog which does not excel after the shot is half a dog in my view and that is representative of NAVHDA folks in general, so I think it is a venue which has great potential to benefit Fonzie and his pup, but you still have to get with the right person as they won't all be worth listening to as you point out.

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Re: Stubborn pup

Post by birddogger2 » Sun Apr 05, 2020 3:22 pm

averageguy -

I am very pleased to see that you repeated and agreed with just about everything I tried to convey to the OP.

Nice to be on the same page.

I have no clue as to the makeup of the Texas area Navhdas. It is indeed fortunate that you have personal knowledge of the Dallas area chapter and the availability of wild birds thereabouts that you can pass along to the OP.

I always heard that Texas upland game hunting opportunities were pretty well sewed up by groups, clubs, corporate and private interests and is both difficult and expensive to access. I was given to understand there was little public land available for upland hunting in that particular state.

I am happy that I was misinformed.

RayG

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Re: Stubborn pup

Post by Ouzel » Sun Apr 05, 2020 3:56 pm

Fonzie - your dog is really very young at seven months! The stages that pups go through can be maddening. I've had ones that hated retrieving until way over a year or more in age and later became fanatics. I've had dogs that hated water and wouldn't swim until after they figured out that birds could be found there. Your dog's brain is really small and at seven months old their attention span is really limited. I would presume he's really interested in gophers, squirrels, birds, etc. but not so much about dummies? Can you blame him? Shoot a bird for him and see what he does.

I wouldn't personally go to a pro. They basically are geared towards success and could push you to be more demanding. But, if you haven't trained much (or don't know how to train), then opinions from experienced trainers can be useful. If you wish to keep this dog then you should go very slow about your obedience training and consider any progress a real plus. No luck then put them up and try later. Teasing your dog with chew toys or dummies can be useful to rev them up enough to chase. Reward with a couple pieces of kibble EVERY time he picks up a dummy and brings it to you...and if he refuses then don't reward, and go on to something else. Reward for heeling. Reward for sitting. Reward for whoaing. Read up on "positive reinforcement" training. Keep dummy toss distances short and don't move to different locations to train until compliance is near perfect at site #1. Yelling just confuses the issue and will not get you anywhere. Keep sessions short.

As a breed, retrievers have a different chip in their heads so you could need a totally different set of training principles and techniques - but the payoff can be worth it.

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Re: Stubborn pup

Post by polmaise » Sun Apr 05, 2020 5:43 pm

Fonzie wrote:
Fri Apr 03, 2020 5:44 pm
So we got a GSP pup (7 months old not) last month. We’ve been working on obedience training and tossing some bumpers at him. At first things were good he was listening (sit and stay), bumpers I’d toss he’d bring back. Well now total left turn! He’s become SUPER stubborn. He will sit but I have to basically holler at him to do so, retrieving bumper he will sometimes bring back other he will either not show interest or run off with it. Really just wanting him for retrieving. Any help would be much appreciated.
Darn nuisance when the pup is not on the same page !?
No matter the breed .
.....
Try some play , and let loose a little :wink:
Let the Pro's do what they do ,enjoy the pup.

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Re: Stubborn pup

Post by averageguy » Mon Apr 06, 2020 9:04 am

Ray G,

Texas has one million acres of land open to public hunting. Iowa has 400,000 by comparison. Texas is one of the most game rich states in NA. Day hunting on private land is widely available for prices that are well less than one will spend at released bird operation or an NFL football game. OK and NM border Texas and KS is not far away from north texas with multiple millions of acres of public land to hunt in each of those states. Next door LA has some of the best waterfowl and woodcock hunting available. If a guy cannot find a way to hunt while living in Texas they are going to struggle in a whole lot of other areas too.

Fonzie,

I guess I am representative of the type of person you will find in a NAVHDA group to assist you. Here are videos I took yesterday while working alone with my NAVHDA registered GWP. Nothing to make a FT Retriever guy's socks roll up and down but solid in the field performance which recovers a very high percentage of birds of all types when they hit the ground or water. Which is what I expect you are seeking with your pup.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i-TL7IQumlU

A mark in cover
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cXU_9SAaPKE
Last edited by averageguy on Mon Apr 06, 2020 9:48 am, edited 2 times in total.

averageguy
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Re: Stubborn pup

Post by averageguy » Mon Apr 06, 2020 9:13 am

Fonzie,

Here is the last drill we ran yesterday. A blind retrieve run in cover where we also hunt wild birds during the open seasons. The dog's line coming back is not straight because he working around the locust tree sprouts that are common in the area.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KbDD5DefUSQ

As far as pro trainers go, I think you stand to benefit tremendously if you get with the right one vs the wrong one. If an amateur, such as you and I, will do the work to educate ourselves through books, DVDs, free youtube videos, Clinics, etc. we can be very successful in training our own dogs. It does require birds, grounds and some equipment.

I have never turned any of my dogs over to a pro trainer, but I have bought 1:1 time with them numerous times and it has always been beneficial. The benefit of these Forums is in pointing folks such as yourself towards resources. Notions we can type a paragraph or two and equip you to train your dog is 100% folly.

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Re: Stubborn pup

Post by gonehuntin' » Mon Apr 06, 2020 1:24 pm

If all you want is a retriever, you really picked the wrong dog. Should have gotten a lab.
LIFE WITHOUT BIRD DOGS AND FLY RODS REALLY ISN'T LIFE AT ALL.

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Re: Stubborn pup

Post by Thirdy8special » Mon Apr 06, 2020 5:54 pm

Not sure if I'm too late but if you can look for Dr. Dale Hubbard on youtube. I used his technique (1st teach place with treats, retrieve to place, then to hand, then teach hold, etc).
My llewelin pup now loves to blind retrieve, teaching her lh & rh retrieves now, luvs fun retrieves obviously, retrieves to front or/and heel holding dummy/frozen quail without telling her hold.
Look up kaya probably in 2017

https://youtu.be/PS4wiUUFSGs

Its works!!!
Texas JAC Lewellins(FB)

averageguy
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Re: Stubborn pup

Post by averageguy » Tue Apr 07, 2020 5:40 am

Thirdy8special wrote:
Mon Apr 06, 2020 5:54 pm
Not sure if I'm too late but if you can look for Dr. Dale Hubbard on youtube. I used his technique (1st teach place with treats, retrieve to place, then to hand, then teach hold, etc).
My llewelin pup now loves to blind retrieve, teaching her lh & rh retrieves now, luvs fun retrieves obviously, retrieves to front or/and heel holding dummy/frozen quail without telling her hold.
Look up kaya probably in 2017

https://youtu.be/PS4wiUUFSGs

Its works!!!
Michael Ellis through Leerburg has a DVD along similar lines as this and includes overlaying an ecollar at the end of the process. Jim Gourley of SetterDogs has numerous videos using PR and dog on a table to build retrieving. It works well for building a foundation of understanding and showing the pup what's in it for them.

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Re: Stubborn pup

Post by averageguy » Tue Apr 07, 2020 1:21 pm

Hey Fonzie et al,

Check out this SharpShooter Line GSP and set your sights for your dog's performance high.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jjIGhTcK4LI

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Re: Stubborn pup

Post by Fonzie » Wed Apr 08, 2020 6:30 pm

Averageguy, where you’re at is where I want to get to. I’m supposed to talk to a guy from Terrel Tx tomorrow about 1:1 training, I’d like to find at least two more guys to chose from to see who the best fit will be for this 1:1. Also started watching allot of DogBoneHunter videos on YouTube. They seem to simplify it at least to me. The dogs I there are on the same level as Rusty.

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