Strange behaviour on point

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veggie
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Strange behaviour on point

Post by veggie » Tue Mar 31, 2020 3:31 am

So I got this new french brittany pup, which is now 8 months old. We've been out regularly since she got into my hands, and has started to point the few birds we have stumbled upon lately. When on point mostly one of two things happen, either way she stops pointing and either sneak into the bird, or comes back to me.

Flushing the bird without my approval I've said a stern NO, calmed her down and moved on. For the part of comming back to me, I don't really know how to handle, or why she does that.

I hope some of the more experienced people on this forum can help me understand my pup a little better.

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Re: Strange behaviour on point

Post by shags » Tue Mar 31, 2020 4:43 am

She's pushing birds because you aren't showing her or helping her to maintain point.

She's blinking birds because she's afraid of getting a correction for doing something she doesn't know an alternative behavior for.
She doesn't know she's supposed to maintain point, and gets corrected for doing the only other thing she can think of doing.

For the life of me, I do not understand why people take young dogs out in uncontrolled/uncontrollable situations, then get upset when the dogs behave the way dogs behave. Give the dog some tools to work with before you give them a job.

Letting the birds train the dog is more a system of knowing the dog will bump and chase, letting the dog figure out that he can't catch, then taking the chase out with some control over the situation.

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Re: Strange behaviour on point

Post by veggie » Tue Mar 31, 2020 5:16 am

Sorry I asked, shall never to that mistake again.

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Re: Strange behaviour on point

Post by Featherfinder » Tue Mar 31, 2020 6:34 am

EXCELLENT, EXCELLENT, EXCELLENT, Shags!!!
Veggie, you need to set the stage for learning so that success is the only option. The point being that if the stage is set properly, you need not spoon feed OR speak through the process. In this way, a dog can think it is learning of it's own decisions, voluntarily! She doesn't need to know you've stacked all the odds in your favor! :wink:
Here - by 8 months - this dog would be well on it's way to becoming steady.
This I can tell you with 100% confidence. Stop saying "No!" to your dog when she bumps birds. In fact, don't SAY anything. Start on a structured steadying program ASAP, as Shags alluded.
Not sure why you are sorry you asked? It's a good thing you did, as the clock is ticking for your girl.
Last edited by Featherfinder on Tue Mar 31, 2020 12:07 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Strange behaviour on point

Post by birddogger2 » Tue Mar 31, 2020 8:46 am

veggie wrote:
Tue Mar 31, 2020 5:16 am
Sorry I asked, shall never to that mistake again.
You asked, and you were advised...correctly I might add... that what you were doing was not a good way to do things.

You need to put your ego in your back pocket and deal with the situation in a constructive manner...for the sake of the dog.
Your dog, your call.

There are several folks here that can help, if that is what you want but...

First, you need to understand that a Brittany, of virtually any stripe, is a remarkably attentive, smart dog that is very willing to please. Typically these dogs do not need very much in the way of a correction in the first place. My BIL raised American Brits for many years and, for some of them...a stern word from him would shut them right down.

I don't know first hand, but everything I read says tome that a French Brit may be even more attentive and compliant. Your youngster is apparently pretty smart and sensitive and is trying to please.

What was explained to you was that your dog was TRYING to do what it thought you wanted it to do, but it obviously did not choose the right response.

What was explained to you was the simple fact that as trainer... it is YOUR job to give the dog the path to the appropriate response.

Here is my take...FWIW.

If you are taking the pup out on walks to get it used to working with you and discovering how to hunt... that is GREAT and you should continue. If the pup smells a bird and roads in on it and rousts it out...it is doing what God and the breeder intended. The pup will eventually learn that it cannot catch a bird and will stop and stand.

If your intent is to let the birds teach the dog, then let the birds do that. Stay out of it, keep your mouth shut and let the dog figure it out. The dog WILL figure it out...eventually. It may take a while. If you go this route, you will need a healthy dose of patience.

If you want to help the process along, there are many different ways to go about helping the dog to make the "right" choices. No matter which training program it is, each and every one of them has as the same goal. All training is geared toward ingraining a certain response or set of responses.

Simply put, if you train the dog to stop and stand, in the yard, praise and reward the dog for stopping and standing... ingraining that response... it will connect the dots in the field with birds. Sooner rather than later.

If you want suggestions as to how to proceed with encouraging appropriate responses, there are lots of folks here with years of experience who are willing to help you and your dog to succeed.

If you want to contact someone from this board privately, I am sure many would be willing to do that as well. The two folks who originally responded have a wealth of knowledge and experience to share.

FWIW, I have made just about every mistake that can be made when training a bird dog. Failure is the greatest teacher, because it forces you to learn.

RayG

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Re: Strange behaviour on point

Post by DonF » Tue Mar 31, 2020 10:03 am

Great reply Shags! Right on the money!
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Re: Strange behaviour on point

Post by Featherfinder » Tue Mar 31, 2020 12:10 pm

I wish to reiterate a sage observation from Shags: "For the life of me, I do not understand why people take young dogs out in uncontrolled/uncontrollable situations..."
I have found this to be more the norm than the exception, Veggie aside.

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Re: Strange behaviour on point

Post by Urban_Redneck » Tue Mar 31, 2020 2:20 pm

You've gotten some good advice here. Stop what you are doing and take it.

I hate the idea of an 8 month old pup blinking birds. Shut up, let'm flush/chase if that's what it takes for pup to regain her confidence.

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Re: Strange behaviour on point

Post by veggie » Tue Mar 31, 2020 2:31 pm

Well yes, unfortunately real game is the only birds available for me at this moment, unfortunately there is some kind of crisis going on in the world right now. Yes she is taking walks with me, and I do encourage her all the way, it's pretty much all I do, as her obedience is far greater than I ever expected.

To rule it out, any kind of tools are banned around here. So no, those have not been used.

What has happens is that she is pointing, then starts to sneak in, and I've only stopped the chase on her. We've calmed down, and been exploring where the grouse sat together with lots of encouragement. Most of the time when I've said nothing there isn't even a chase. Which has led me to wondering wether she really wants the birds or not.

Two times out of her 8 first points she has broken her point to come heel, through encouragement I've managed to get her back to point the birds again for us to flush. I've ensured she has recieved a lot of praise in the encounters.

I asked because I didn't know wether this was a puppy behaviour or something I should put more thought into.

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Re: Strange behaviour on point

Post by Featherfinder » Tue Mar 31, 2020 3:06 pm

Thanks for clarifying Veggie. No, it is not normal for the pup to run back to you, typically.
Sometimes, when a young pup is improperly introduced to a pigeon or worse an adult pheasant, the pup can get slapped or spooked by the strong wings. That's why I recommend coturnix quail for the more sensitive/reticent YOUNG pup. Coturnix hardly fly and their wings are less aggressive on a pup. Catching one of two of these for a milder mannered YOUNG pup is not bad at all. Next, once pup is bold, you can step up to Bobwhite which fly better yet still have a short-ish wing span. Then pigeons, etc. etc.
This way a pup is confident enough to want to chase...for a while. :wink:
Or, too much pressure around birds can cause this too.
I appreciate the magnitude of the current global pandemic however you mentioned your dog is 8 months. This pup should be a handful around birds by now, normally.
Did you get him recently, wait to train (busy with work/family) or just not able to start sooner?
Anyway, something seems to have gone "south" along the way, IMO. As such, you will need a corrective approach now rather than a more natural progressive one.
Wait....all this said, does the pedigree support a capable working athlete or is it one of those peds with JH here and there, along with....bench champion this, and bench champion that, and grand champion, etc.? Does it have a registered name like: Shorttail's Magnum of Huntersdog Billy the Kid's Long Lost Neigbor's Cousin Richmond...but they called him "Rye"? :lol:
We must never lose our sense of humor!

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Re: Strange behaviour on point

Post by veggie » Tue Mar 31, 2020 3:41 pm

I've had the pup since this 8 weeks, and she have been with me on all my fishing trips and walks. Wild birds is pretty much all I have avaiable, since penned birds are far apart where I live. I've followed the program given by the breeder, and we've worked through house rules, basic obedience and reinforced it in hunting habitat.

During december/january we haven't been out that much, because of the cold, and shes a pup. And starting more regular trips through february, right now is pretty much the best time for training pups around here, as they are pairing up and we get a lot more situations.

I just thought it was quite peculiar how she at some birds was crowding the bird, and other times coming back to me. Which to me seems like quite opposites? I guess I might have to get a few more situations to really clarify, and just keep my mouth shut and while on birds.

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Re: Strange behaviour on point

Post by averageguy » Tue Mar 31, 2020 4:04 pm

Take some video of the pup working birds and post it and folks will be able to provide better advise. An 8 month old pup leaving a bird it knows is there and returning to the handler is a serious problem.

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Re: Strange behaviour on point

Post by birddogger2 » Tue Mar 31, 2020 6:55 pm

veggie -

As I mentioned, there are a whole bunch of ways to get from here to there with a bird dog. Most will work.

The road you choose to travel on that journey will, to a large extent, determine the type of training methods you employ.

The good news is that most well bred bird dogs are born with all that it takes to make a fine gundog companion.

You asked the question. I think it was answered, but just in case....

Your youngster is, I think, confused and uncertain of just what YOU want, at this point in time. It shows all of that by its behavior in returning to you. The fact that it will return to the bird and re-engage with the bird tells me ...there IS a bird dog in there.

You need to help the bird dog in there come out to play. That is what a good hunting partner will want to do.

When you ask for advice and help, sometimes it can sting a little if you take it personally.
Please do not do that.

We often have an image of ourselves that sometimes assumes we know things and can do things that we really cannot. Not everyone is born knowing how to throw a curveball or swing a bat or dribble a basketball. Training a dog is no different. Not everyone has the inborn knowledge on how to create a useful bird dog. I sure as heck did not... although I thought, at one time that I should have.

In the words of Monty Python... "I got Bettah".

Please understand that most all the folks on this board really just want to see the dog become all it can be. We are here to help.

RayG

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Re: Strange behaviour on point

Post by Trekmoor » Wed Apr 01, 2020 6:51 am

Well ……….. I am shocked to read that I've been doing it all wrong for all these years ! :lol: I train every pup I get on wild birds right from the start and I certainly don't have control over either the pup or the situation.

Yes the O.P. made a mistake. He, in some way, made his pup feel "wrong" when it moved in on birds , flushed and perhaps chased them. I would not have corrected in any way for any of those things. The O.P.'s pup is, as already pointed out in earlier posts, simply trying to avoid any kind of censure from it's owner by opting out of the entire situation by returning to him.

I very occasionally use a checkcord if a pup still chases after a month or two of chasing birds it has flushed but I never jerk it, I just hold it and let the pup decide how hard to jerk it ….if at all.

Personally, I think only having wild birds to hunt a pup onto is an advantage …..wild game birds are superb gundog trainers !

In America you are permitted to use live birds for training purposes. If I lived there I would consider using them in this particular pup's case. I'd let it catch a couple of pigeons or quail or partridge if I could get my hands on them.

I'd worry about any problems doing this might cause at a later stage. At the moment it is vital that your pup loses any fear of game that it might have gained due to "earlier handler error."|

Bill T.
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Re: Strange behaviour on point

Post by Featherfinder » Wed Apr 01, 2020 7:33 am

Well said Birddogger/Ray G. In this synthetic medium we too rarely connect with the human at the other end but we more easily connect with the dog. (In some cases it's because WE made those same mistakes - some of us repeatedly. :oops: )
We are all here because of the dogs so it's understandable but Ray is right. Our intentions are the best but speaking for myself, I am so intent on doing what's right for the dog-in-need that I - too often - cr_p on the owner, UNINTENTIONALLY but none-the-less, I do. For this, I apologize because I know I will likely do so again.
As for the your dog Veggie, I appreciate the weather dictated training void. We have similar weather here and it can be a pain-in-the-asterisk.
That aside, before taking any extended journey with my dogs/truck, it is wise to plan the route, time lines, rests/stoppages, food breaks, fuel breaks, etc. I would like to suggest that you take a break from physically working with this dog for a brief window of time. I recommend that you develop a firm template for each stage of this dog's ensuing training with a clear goal of the journey AND where/when you intent to arrive. This does NOT mean you cannot retool/adjust your tack along the way however without a plan/strategy/philosophy, you are doomed to make bad turns, end up lost, have accidents, run out of gas, drive through the night tired, etc.
If nothing else, with detailed plans you will appear confident/deliberate in the eyes of your dog. Dogs will not follow lost leaders and can smell one even further than they can birds!
You're not anywhere where many of us have not already been. But you have the added advantage/disadvantage of the internet/this medium! To your dog, it doesn't matter the name of your plan/source/process. It's the resulting plan itself that you and he need to bring to fruition.
Lead with conviction, bend with consideration.
I spoke with a new client that worked with special needs children, especially autistic ones. He and I connected immediately. I know little compared to him but what was enlightening was his response to my canine philosophies. He shared how perceptive children are in general, minus the dependency to verbally convey moods, emotions, feelings and yet they KNOW....just like dogs. We are all like neon signs with this preferred mode of speaking. And yet there ARE other indicators. We've all been there with our long time spouse/partner feeling without saying, and yet we know. Dogs are far better at this than we are.
All I'm saying is, we need to learn more dog language and keep our mouths shut more. Who knows...WE could learn something!
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In my opinion, you are lost in a storm.....again. Plan your way back.

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Re: Strange behaviour on point

Post by DonF » Wed Apr 01, 2020 8:43 am

I don't think he started the pup to late. I like to let the pup tell me when its ready. Wish I had lot's of wild birds here but I don't. So I let them run and chase dicky birds, I don't discourage that. A bird is a bird is a bird! Now and then set out a few remote traps with pigeons in them and when the pup get's near, pop the bird, keep my mouth shut an go on. Pup want's to chase, fine with me, fix that down the road! When you use strictly wild bird's, you give up the ability to set up situations with birds you know are there that you can control. When you start out using pen raise birds, you risk using bird's that don't fly well encouraging the chase and teaching that it can actually catch the birds, pigeons get off the ground and leave! When your dog is ready to get somewhat serious, it will let you know. Lot of pup's start fairly young and bring great satisfaction to the trainer. Then most of them suffer the trainer through second year madness, they seem for some reason to have forgotten what they learned. But what happens is they grow from a willing puppy to a teenager that has all the answer's! Wait and let the pup grow some. You won't stall the pup, the desire is bred in and you can't do a lot about that. But when it's ready it will come out and and then even though it's still a pup, it's a more mature pup ready to actually learn.
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Re: Strange behaviour on point

Post by bobman » Wed Apr 01, 2020 7:43 pm

Trekmoors post is how I would handle it, he’s right on
currently two shorthairs, four english pointers, one Brittany, one SPRINGER a chihuahua and a min pin lol

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Re: Strange behaviour on point

Post by Featherfinder » Thu Apr 02, 2020 8:49 am

Trekmoor, I would offer that there are many ways/processes to achieve success. There are almost as many definitions of success. Then there is yet another definition of wild bird species, utile opportunities/available numbers of wild birds, appropriate habitat that would serve a young dog at influential times. Finally, there is the timeline for getting "there" that might be of consideration. In-other-words, there are many variables.
Using STRONG flying acquired birds properly can really help with many of these variables. But, that takes us right back to my opening sentence. As such, I don't see anything wrong with either of our processes - just a diverse path. The good news is, you're not necessarily doing it all wrong all these years! :)
Veggie, I suggest you communicate directly with Trekmoor re his process because he uses wild birds right from the get-go.

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Re: Strange behaviour on point

Post by averageguy » Thu Apr 02, 2020 1:20 pm

Using properly presented training birds vs wild birds is not an either or proposition for me. It is both.

As Don F posted, it is impossible to control wild birds and that is the purpose and benefit of using training birds. The video I posted in my new pup thread earlier in the week shows me exposing the pup to a live bird scent cone where her pointing instinct was immediately engaged. She is far too little and young to get through enough cover right now to find and engage wild birds. We will do a lot of that latter. Meanwhile using training birds presented correctly is very beneficial to her development and likely would be to Veggie's dog as well.

Trying to train a dog to be steady to WSF using purely wild birds would not be feasible where I live. Exposing a young dog to wild birds a few times a week is feasible ...

FF's last post touched on cover,

The cover where my wild birds live is commonly so dense a handler often cannot get any or full view of their dogs working the birds, which highlights yet another area where training birds presented correctly can be very beneficial. Again in the video clip I posted a couple of days ago, using my pigeon in a launcher allowed me to present the bird in a precise spot where I could get the pup to pass by the scent cone at close range in a way I could read her reaction instantly and act accordingly. It triggered her pointing instinct and the bird could not move and I knew exactly where the bird was and could put it into flight in an instant if the pup advanced into the scent cone, all while saying nothing to the puppy.

Which is an example of where the substantial benefits of training birds, used right, come in.

Veggie, I recommend the Perfect Start and Perfect Finish DVDs and taking steps to be able to acquire and use some training birds to compliment your wild bird exposure.

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Re: Strange behaviour on point

Post by polmaise » Thu Apr 02, 2020 1:36 pm

veggie wrote:
Tue Mar 31, 2020 3:31 am
So I got this new french brittany pup, which is now 8 months old. We've been out regularly since she got into my hands, and has started to point the few birds we have stumbled upon lately. When on point mostly one of two things happen, either way she stops pointing and either sneak into the bird, or comes back to me.

Flushing the bird without my approval I've said a stern NO, calmed her down and moved on. For the part of comming back to me, I don't really know how to handle, or why she does that.

I hope some of the more experienced people on this forum can help me understand my pup a little better.
Apologies if this has been covered by others .
The topic heading "Strange behaviour on point" , is not conducive to the explanation ... sounds like it is a reaction of the dog to a confused situation to it's natural behaviour .
"Technically attempting achievement of completed formal training of a process required with many repetitions in the wrong order, whilst attempting the end game for the handler/trainer ..with a pup is often a recipe for disaster ...for both"
Polmaise :circa 1990

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Re: Strange behaviour on point

Post by Featherfinder » Fri Apr 03, 2020 6:01 am

Polmaise, I am offended by your comment above. So what if I get strange when my dog's on point?!?
Oh...I get it now. Sorry...

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Re: Strange behaviour on point

Post by mask » Fri Apr 03, 2020 10:50 am

A good pro trainer might be in order and is what I would recommend. At the very least try a training book by MO Lindley or Dave Walker. All the best to you and your pup.

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Re: Strange behaviour on point

Post by veggie » Fri Apr 03, 2020 12:15 pm

I appreciate all the input from everybody. Where I live getting training birds is difficult, mainly because you need to apply to the government for it, and they just don't hand out licence to everybody. Getting on wild birds is no big deal around here, as they are plentiful, and usually I get 2-5 good situations on 2 hour walks with my dog. From other more experienced trainers around here they tell me it is enough. When I say trainers, I mean dog owners, since there aren't that many professional dog trainers here either..

I've already set up an appointment with the breeder come june, if this corona stuff is not prohibiting we will surely figure out some stuff there. Unfortunately it is a 13 h drive, so not something I can just do after work. I planned on my next post to include a video of the dog, but I haven't had time to get out this week, will go out pretty much every other day from here on out.

The way trekmoor describes is pretty much the way things are done around here. The incident of returning to me has happen twice, once the spot was empty, I knew so, and waited her out for her to release the point by herself. She did so and returned to me. The second time I wonder if she was insecure, and left the point because she didn't know. However, she might be more sensitive than I first thought, and I shall try to let her do whatever she want, with nothing but praise for the next few trips, to see how things develop.

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Re: Strange behaviour on point

Post by polmaise » Fri Apr 03, 2020 2:47 pm

veggie wrote:
Fri Apr 03, 2020 12:15 pm
I appreciate all the input from everybody. Where I live getting training birds is difficult, mainly because you need to apply to the government for it, and they just don't hand out licence to everybody. Getting on wild birds is no big deal around here, as they are plentiful, and usually I get 2-5 good situations on 2 hour walks with my dog. From other more experienced trainers around here they tell me it is enough. When I say trainers, I mean dog owners, since there aren't that many professional dog trainers here either..

I've already set up an appointment with the breeder come june, if this corona stuff is not prohibiting we will surely figure out some stuff there. Unfortunately it is a 13 h drive, so not something I can just do after work. I planned on my next post to include a video of the dog, but I haven't had time to get out this week, will go out pretty much every other day from here on out.
Don't know where you live or what laws , but pretty sure keeping quail in a jonny house in the back yard or pigeons is universal . I have a mate in Musselburgh living in a third floor flat with 3 springers 2 kids and a nagging wife ,with only a window box as a garden ,and he breds Quail and pheasants in the cellar . ..what you do with them in application and circumstance in training however is a whole new ball game (imo) .
professional dog trainers ? ..where and what area are you ? ..bet there is a few ..just call out and I am sure some good folk on here will 'steer' you .
If you go out every other day ,then that would be an opportunity to video the progression every two days ,look forward to the 5 in 10 days , the last one being better than the first ...rather than an epic....that would be like ...all wrong ..(imo)
''Old Bill'' may well have been doing things the way you see it , but then Ole Bill has been doing it for years . This your first time ? ..
Rocky ride ,a Brittany , or any of the pointing breeds ...many think they just have to let the dog do all the work ......It ain't so

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Re: Strange behaviour on point

Post by averageguy » Fri Apr 03, 2020 4:49 pm

Veggie,

Your last post gives me optimism things will work out fine for you and your pup. Some training materials would be beneficial and several have been recommended. I have spent 4 hours over the last two days studying some DVDs and I trained my first dog 50 years ago. I continue to learn new things from all corners of the dog world.

Best of Luck, Keep the Updates coming.

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Re: Strange behaviour on point

Post by veggie » Wed Apr 08, 2020 3:05 am

For a few videos from my last trips, where to upload? I ended up calling the breeder, and he adviced me to keep distance, as the dog probably felt pressure from me coming up behind her. Keeping my distance also fixed the Flushing issues, which is a requirement on the tests around here.

We’re not done with this yet, but as she gets more experience i presume things will get better.

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Re: Strange behaviour on point

Post by veggie » Sun Apr 12, 2020 1:14 pm

Had another go and a few situations. She hasn’t come back to me ever since. And things are getting better in that departement. However, she points rather far away from the birds, we were advancing about 100 m before the birds flushed today.

Another problem is the false points that has emerged, where she points the spot the birds newly flew away from. Is this something which is rectible?

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Re: Strange behaviour on point

Post by Featherfinder » Sun Apr 19, 2020 10:08 am

Veggie, there is a LOT of expertise in this medium. Here is my take and mine ALONE. We have made a number of suggestions on a number if issues re your journey towards a competent bird dog - by whatever definition you/folk might have of a decent bird dog.
The number and diversity of your concerns identifies one thing to me. You need professional or at least competent mentorship LOCALLY.
This dog is still young and already a series of concerns have emerged. It's SO much easier starting a dog properly and nurturing it along rather than fighting fire-after-fire as - in my opinion - you are doing.
I share this with the best of intentions Sir.

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Re: Strange behaviour on point

Post by Trekmoor » Mon Apr 20, 2020 4:29 am

veggie wrote:
Sun Apr 12, 2020 1:14 pm


Another problem is the false points that has emerged, where she points the spot the birds newly flew away from. Is this something which is rectible?
False points ….strictly speaking these are points on nothing at all or on , perhaps, ancient scents not necessarily of game. . They can be caused by handlers praising every point their puppy makes a bit too much for that particular puppy. It is often a fault beginner trainers of pointing dogs have..... I had that fault with my very first pointing dog (a Brittany) and it took a much more experienced trainer to tell me what I had done wrong . He also told me how to "cure" it ...with my next dog ! :roll:

I couldn't wait that long so I began to urge my Brit on whenever she pointed. I had been told not to believe in every point until an actual bird had been produced ! My brit began to move in and flush for which I did nothing at all ....no reprimand but no praise either. Sometimes she pointed very strongly on birds I could be certain were there. I quietly vocally praised her for those points and she, at last, understood what I wanted. She ceased to false point. If you even think your dog is false pointing then urge it on ! Do not treat the point as though you believe it. The dogs degree of intensity on point will tell you which points you can believe in.

So ....false points are points on , basically, nothing at all. Points made to places that birds have very recently vacated are "unproductive points" …….. a different thing altogether. All dogs make occasional mistakes by pointing where birds were in the very recent past.
I would not correct a dog in any way for making an unproductive point. The dog has been cautious when it hit into a fairly fresh scent and possibly pointed before it knew what it was doing.

Bill T.
The older I get, the better I was !

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Re: Strange behaviour on point

Post by veggie » Mon Apr 20, 2020 10:08 am

Trekmoor wrote:
Mon Apr 20, 2020 4:29 am
veggie wrote:
Sun Apr 12, 2020 1:14 pm


Another problem is the false points that has emerged, where she points the spot the birds newly flew away from. Is this something which is rectible?
False points ….strictly speaking these are points on nothing at all or on , perhaps, ancient scents not necessarily of game. . They can be caused by handlers praising every point their puppy makes a bit too much for that particular puppy. It is often a fault beginner trainers of pointing dogs have..... I had that fault with my very first pointing dog (a Brittany) and it took a much more experienced trainer to tell me what I had done wrong . He also told me how to "cure" it ...with my next dog ! :roll:

I couldn't wait that long so I began to urge my Brit on whenever she pointed. I had been told not to believe in every point until an actual bird had been produced ! My brit began to move in and flush for which I did nothing at all ....no reprimand but no praise either. Sometimes she pointed very strongly on birds I could be certain were there. I quietly vocally praised her for those points and she, at last, understood what I wanted. She ceased to false point. If you even think your dog is false pointing then urge it on ! Do not treat the point as though you believe it. The dogs degree of intensity on point will tell you which points you can believe in.

So ....false points are points on , basically, nothing at all. Points made to places that birds have very recently vacated are "unproductive points" …….. a different thing altogether. All dogs make occasional mistakes by pointing where birds were in the very recent past.
I would not correct a dog in any way for making an unproductive point. The dog has been cautious when it hit into a fairly fresh scent and possibly pointed before it knew what it was doing.

Bill T.
In that case, the false points are under the unproductive points category. A few times i’ve seen the birds fly, and she has points the spot where the birds had been.

Having been in contact with the breeder, he also tells me this is normal. Also said the dog should experience more birds to develop her instincts.

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Re: Strange behaviour on point

Post by polmaise » Mon Apr 20, 2020 11:32 am

veggie wrote:
Mon Apr 20, 2020 10:08 am
Having been in contact with the breeder, he also tells me this is normal. Also said the dog should experience more birds to develop her instincts.
.........
Your breeder and you have an advantage far more than any one, or I.
Often, that is also a disadvantage .
Best regards, ...
Last edited by polmaise on Mon Apr 20, 2020 4:20 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Strange behaviour on point

Post by polmaise » Mon Apr 20, 2020 4:19 pm

You are doing just fine ,atb

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Re: Strange behaviour on point

Post by Featherfinder » Mon Apr 20, 2020 6:44 pm

Sorry Polmaise but I have to disagree. He is not doing just fine and the fire-fighting will predictably continue. He needs help - the right kind of help.
Learning on dogs is OK but you might go through a number of them before you get remotely close to a decent dog. That can be a long, arduous, expensive road wrought with frustration, disappointment and did I say expense? Don't downplay this guy. You're not doing Veggie any favors.
He needs solid help/direction locally, NOW.
Or, he can just get another pup....
Last edited by Featherfinder on Tue Apr 21, 2020 5:59 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Strange behaviour on point

Post by gonehuntin' » Mon Apr 20, 2020 8:16 pm

Shags nailed this post many posts ago, hurt feelings or not.
LIFE WITHOUT BIRD DOGS AND FLY RODS REALLY ISN'T LIFE AT ALL.

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Re: Strange behaviour on point

Post by Featherfinder » Tue Apr 21, 2020 6:00 am

She usually does. :wink:

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Re: Strange behaviour on point

Post by polmaise » Tue Apr 21, 2020 2:50 pm

Featherfinder wrote:
Mon Apr 20, 2020 6:44 pm
Sorry Polmaise but I have to disagree. He is not doing just fine and the fire-fighting will predictably continue. He needs help - the right kind of help.
Learning on dogs is OK but you might go through a number of them before you get remotely close to a decent dog. That can be a long, arduous, expensive road wrought with frustration, disappointment and did I say expense? Don't downplay this guy. You're not doing Veggie any favors.
He needs solid help/direction locally, NOW.
Or, he can just get another pup....
Too many edits make the thing Not real :wink:

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Re: Strange behaviour on point

Post by Featherfinder » Tue Apr 21, 2020 4:55 pm

Aaaahhh...OK Polmaise. I hear you.

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Re: Strange behaviour on point

Post by veggie » Sat May 09, 2020 9:04 am

The birds are now nesting and the training season is pretty much over. In summary, this training season ended with a very good product of a dog, which is starting to find its way. The points are stable, flushing is good, and calm while the birds fly away.

In august we will start training again, now we will just bond and have a good time fishing salmon and going on trips together. The hunting season starts in september, and I'm already confident the dog will be lots of joy, after showing me what she can do.

For the trials around here, she only needs more boldness in her search, which I'm sure will come as she gains experience.

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Re: Strange behaviour on point

Post by Higgins » Sun May 17, 2020 8:12 pm

Hello Veggie,

I've seen client dogs display the behavior you mention. In my experience, It's easy to fix.

You stated, "Flushing the bird without my approval I've said a stern NO, calmed her down and moved on. For the part of coming back to me, I don't really know how to handle, or why she does that." It seems she has built a negative association to the pressure of your "NO" command. You did not mention if she comes back after you say "NO" of if she simply comes back when she smells a bird. In either case, the fix is the same. Let good flying, wild acting birds teach her. She will learn from the birds that if she pressures them, they will fly and she will be unsuccessful. Chasing a few good flying birds that she flushed is a necessary learning experience. Leave her alone and let her figure it out. After losing on a couple of chases, she will become more careful and begin to stalk and point longer. Now checkcord her into a good bird, put it up, shoot it and bring it back to her. After just a couple of birds, she will change her chasing strategy to a stalking/pointing strategy, waiting for you to help her be successful. We can usually get this done in a couple of days.

Good luck with your pup.

Brad Higgins
www.HigginsGundogs.com

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Re: Strange behaviour on point

Post by veggie » Tue Jun 23, 2020 1:54 am

As I promised earlier i would go to a trainer during the summer. We went there for the weekend to get a few tips and tricks and worked up some pidgeons on his fields. The dog was working perfectly on the pidgeons and the work was enough for the best top positions in any test around here. So to speak I am happy about it, but he also tells me the dog isn't completely awake on the birds yet, at 11 months old she will get more intense and hunt harder the more birds she experiences.

Appriciate all the input I've had on my problems, but sometimes I think only time can fix the problems.

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Re: Strange behaviour on point

Post by Sharon » Tue Jun 23, 2020 11:41 am

and that is usually the case. Thanks for the update ; we all want to hear how our advice works out - for better or for worse.
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Re: Strange behaviour on point

Post by birddogger2 » Tue Jun 23, 2020 1:54 pm

Veggie -

Excellent news...for BOTH of you. Well done sir!

Patience is a virtue I do not have enough of. Persistence I have to the point of stubbornness. Being consistent is something I need to work on all the time.

Patience, persistence and consistency are three things that will serve you well. Keep up the good work.

RayG

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Re: Strange behaviour on point

Post by birddogger2 » Tue Jun 23, 2020 1:54 pm

Veggie -

Excellent news...for BOTH of you. Well done sir!

Patience is a virtue I do not have enough of. Persistence I have to the point of stubbornness. Being consistent is something I need to work on all the time.

Patience, persistence and consistency are three things that will serve you well. Keep up the good work.

RayG

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