wanting to jump in on birds

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setterpoint
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wanting to jump in on birds

Post by setterpoint » Mon Mar 30, 2020 4:27 pm

looking for some feedback, got a young english pointer points birds out a 100 yards holds point untill i get within 15ft then jumps in and flushes
hes not whoa broke yet just running him on woodcock as of now, i think whoa breaking him will stop this as i said not putting much pressure on him now
looking how others would work thru this

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bonasa
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Re: wanting to jump in on birds

Post by bonasa » Mon Mar 30, 2020 5:13 pm

Whoa breaking through the whoa post and transition to belly band. Later transition to stop to flush training and then finally to scent birds. A nick on the belly will get him to stop and a pick-up then a set back will get the point across. Pigeons are helpful but hacking the dog close in the grouse/woodcock woods works just as good. Try to not say a word through the whole process though.

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Featherfinder
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Re: wanting to jump in on birds

Post by Featherfinder » Tue Mar 31, 2020 6:20 am

I retracted my original post because it was unwarranted.
You are correct Setterpoint re steadying that dog. There are MANY processes for steadying a dog. My way of doing things won't serve the current path you are on, but there are many here that can make better recommendations than I.
As for it being unacceptable behavior, I see this a lot but it is transitional. Normally not a big deal.
Oh...how old is he?
Last edited by Featherfinder on Tue Mar 31, 2020 12:28 pm, edited 6 times in total.

setterpoint
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Re: wanting to jump in on birds

Post by setterpoint » Tue Mar 31, 2020 10:19 am

thanks for the replys, i have delt with this befor in dogs, was wondering how others worked thru this
my way of doing things might not be the best for all dogs sometimes a one size fits all is not the best way in ever situation
im thinking whoa breaking the dog will stop this and am going to do this soon
i know this is not the behaver anyone would except in there dogs, and i dont except it in mine
didnt need to know what is going to mess the dog up , just wondering what others would do and how they would handle this

shags
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Re: wanting to jump in on birds

Post by shags » Tue Mar 31, 2020 3:39 pm

Well, if my young dog let me get in front and flush, I'd let him stand there while I went in front and flushed. But if my dog was flushing on his own, I wouldn't take him out without a cc or something to restrain him, whoa or whatever. Why ingrain behavior you'll need to change later?

This from my experience. I've had a couple of dogs that climbed out of the whelping pen pretty much broke, one more so than the other. Those dogs were great fun to take out like that, because they didn't do anything that needed to be fixed later. All my other dogs have been normal... pointed, then bumped and chased. That wasn't allowed to happen after a couple times, even though it meant less fun in the field (or woods) for me. I'd seen too many really nice young dogs in competition who were great in juvenile stakes where they could take out birds with wild abandon for their whole juvey careers; but once it came time to break them, they resented the restrictions and pressure and generally just never amounted to much else and were never seen in adult broke dog stakes.

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Featherfinder
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Re: wanting to jump in on birds

Post by Featherfinder » Tue Mar 31, 2020 4:08 pm

I've seen the very same thing Shags! Amazing juvenile dogs - gone from adult stakes. Then again, I see TONS of gun dog videos where the adult dogs aren't remotely near steady either. How is that different - because they aren't being judged?
Oh...wait...I know...it's because they prefer not to have a steady dog specific to retrieving. Riiiiight… :roll:
Or, could it be that their training processes make getting a reliable steady dog SO challenging and virtually impossible to maintain as a mature dog?!?
Naaahh…it's got to be the retrieve thing.
The Kings of "marking" - as in the retrieving breeds - must ALL break on the shot or when they eye a flock circling above, then blast out of the blind/hide anticipating a dead duck/goose to fall, right?
Or, could it be that they can mark FAR more accurately staying put? They also seem to be able to navigate on land and water, through decoys, etc., wade the reeds, weeds, tall grass to bring back that bird/cripple?
Hmmm.....????

setterpoint
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Re: wanting to jump in on birds

Post by setterpoint » Tue Mar 31, 2020 6:25 pm

hes 15 mayby 16 months hunted him some last year he pointed grouse and woodcock we killed a few of each over his points
then winter set in didnt get him out much he just started doing this this year ,on spring woodcock training
but he did much better today held two woodcock and let me flush he bump one bird
going to whoa break him after april 15 thats when training season goes out, thought about pulling him off birds and start whoa now but hate to mis, the spring flight
but thanks for the replys seen some things to try

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Re: wanting to jump in on birds

Post by birddogger2 » Tue Mar 31, 2020 7:20 pm

setterpoint -

One setup I like for the situation you describe is a prong collar, checkcord and a tree or fencepost.

I plant a bird nearby a tree or fencepost and bring the dog in on a loosely held checkcord. The checkcord is attached to the dog's flat collar, but before the run I also put on a prong collar. When the dog scents the bird and points, I pop the checkcord, walk up to the dog and switch the checkcord to the prong collar. I then go back and tie the cord off to the nearby tree or post. If the dog lunges to the bird, it gets bit by the prong collar. I then go to the dog, physically pick it up, move it back, stack it up, style it up and back away.

After a minute or two...by the watch, I will go in front of the dog and flush, even if the bird has flown. If the dog moves, I physically pick it up, move it back, give it a pop with the checkcord and style and stroke it up again and wait...a full minute or two by the watch
once again. I then will go in front of the dog and do a flushing attempt. If the dog stands well, I will slip a bird out of my pouch and let it fly. If I don't have a spare bird, I toss my hat or a handful of leaves.

RayG

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bobman
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Re: wanting to jump in on birds

Post by bobman » Tue Mar 31, 2020 8:45 pm

Don’t walk past him from behind young dogs all naturally want to beat you to the bird When you do that

Swing around and try and come in to the point from in front of him and attempt to “ pinch” the bird between you and him, see what happens he will probably get more steady
currently two shorthairs, four english pointers, one Brittany, one SPRINGER a chihuahua and a min pin lol

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Re: wanting to jump in on birds

Post by shags » Wed Apr 01, 2020 5:16 am

Setterpoint,
As your dog is 15 - 16 months old, I'm gonna confirm my diagnosis of Derbyitis as mentioned without naming above. It's a very common disease in young dogs and it even affects older dogs in some circumstances.

I see this all the time in competitions and hunt tests. Most of my own dogs have had it.

When birddogs are first exposed to birds their pointing instinct kicks in without any influence from us. The dog might stumble across a bird because he doesn't even know how to hunt, and is intoxicated by the scent. He freezes and just. can't. move. Pretty soon the dog learns where to find birds so he gets more fixes. We think the dog is a genius and aren't we lucky that we got one that is already mostly broke and yay we won't have to do much training!

But then Derbyitis kicks in. I call it Derbyitis because it mostly befalls young dogs in that age group 6 - 24 months of age. I've seen it happen to older dogs of pointing breed who might be pulled off the sofa to earn a Junior Hunter title too. What happens is, the dog somehow realizes he can bump birds and it is fun! More fun than standing there drinking in scent! Sometimes the trigger is a wild flush; Sometimes it's a flush by us; sometimes it's some kind of something that makes the dog think " That smells so dang good, I wonder what it tastes like?" and he dives in of his own accord.

There is only one cure, and that's to stop the bumping and to start the breaking process. This most often results in a period of withdrawal for us, the trainer, because there's no more just running the dog and having for - for a while. It means we have to figure a way to stop those bumps whether that's using some sort of restraint on wild birds, or just quitting wild birds for now and going to pen raised.

Most dogs with Derbyitis recover if the treatment is swift and effective. The ones who have the worst recoveries are those who are allowed to carry on as before so the behavior is ingrained. Sadly, some of those never recover, but I attribute those cases to a combination of wanting to bump and a natural inborn boneheadedness.

Good luck with your pointer. I hope he turns out awesome for you.

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