Commands for multiple dogs

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Fitter47449
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Commands for multiple dogs

Post by Fitter47449 » Sat Mar 07, 2020 6:52 am

Hey Everyone,

I was just picked up other dog, she's now 12 weeks old. I've been doing some light obedience work with her. So what I was wondering, is if everyone uses the same commands for multiple dogs or different commands. If so how do you keep the dogs from getting confused when running them together?
Thanks in advance

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Re: Commands for multiple dogs

Post by cjhills » Sat Mar 07, 2020 7:36 am

Fitter:
I always hunt with multiple dogs. This can be a bit of and issue. With pointing dogs that are experienced hunter, we use very few commands in the field. Basically none so it is not and issue.
You can control that somewhat by using the dogs name as a prefix to the command. Like "Spot, Here". After you get pretty good obedience you can group train and they will get the idea.
I had a little girl who was at our kennel with her dad tell me I was cheating because I call them in the same order. She was wrong but I was impressed with her.
When I load the dogs at home I have the gate on my run open and call each dog individually. In the field I whoa the dogs and load each dog separately. With name and "Kennel".
They sort of get the idea but they do have a tendency to all respond to the same command when running in the field. I am good with that. I am not a big obedience guy in the field, except for "here". Most all other things they do on their own.....Cj

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Re: Commands for multiple dogs

Post by Fitter47449 » Sat Mar 07, 2020 7:43 am

That makes sense CJ. The only time I tend to use alot of commands is when I'm guiding hunts, that's only to keep my current dog close so the hunters can watch him work, and for the most I plan to rotate the dogs instead of having multiple Down to worry about. So, essentially most of the time when they are down together, will be when it's just me, and like you I won't be hacking them around.

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Re: Commands for multiple dogs

Post by shags » Sat Mar 07, 2020 7:58 am

My experience is pretty much an echo of CJ's. When I have to get after one dog in the field, the other one sometimes will seem confused and stand there with a "Wut?" look on his face. I turn to face him and release him with "OK Bud" and he goes on his way.

You get those times when you call one and everyone comes, or you heel one and they all think you mean them etc. When you (over)think about it, it can seem like it will be a train wreck but IRL it's pretty easy to sort out, and much better than when the whole bunch of them ignores you :mrgreen:

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Re: Commands for multiple dogs

Post by polmaise » Sat Mar 07, 2020 1:13 pm

'In Training' ..a single dog at one time the commands or process in training if the same for all ,will result in the same outcome (assuming consistency and all things right in the head for both Trainer and dog) the result of obedience will be the same for all . (well, that's why programs and DVD's are produced ,along with blogs and articles in magazines ..right ?)
You can have a pack of over 100 hounds all sit at chow time , but when they are released to hunt a fox for example ..? then all heck can be released if some individual training /coupling has not been done ... I digress..so it is a 'Bird dog' Fitter is asking , with the viewpoint most probably ?(now don't y'all shoot the messenger with all the 'Birds') in their hand !
The likely outcome for his already accustomed dog , to work in tandem with his not so accustomed pup to do the same with the same commands ?.....
...
But that is not likely as they intend to work them individually . ?

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Re: Commands for multiple dogs

Post by Fitter47449 » Sat Mar 07, 2020 8:16 pm

Shags I do usually tend to over think things lol. So I'll just train to new dog with the same commands as the older one. Both are GSP's I forgot to mention. If it becomes an issue, the older dog is trained to recall with voice, whistle, collar tone and hand signal. Woah with voice, whistle, vibrate on collar and also hand. Also come around with voice and whistle.

I'll most likely have the pup done the same way so I could always just use the collar to do what's needed without distracting the other dog. I also could overlay a different command word after the intial training is done.

Polmaise, I see your point. The dogs will most likely still do a good bit of hunting together, just not when I'm guiding, its nerve racking enough worrying about one dog with a group of strangers with guns.

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Re: Commands for multiple dogs

Post by Featherfinder » Sun Mar 08, 2020 9:19 am

I only hunt one dog at a time and I have 2 of my own so....
I've been part of/witnessed many "multiple dog" hunts. They typically end up being more of a deterrent than an advantage BUT it all depends on your definition of performance quality and what you look for in your bird hunting experience. For example, some folk measure their hunt on number of birds killed. Who am I to judge? I don't make the rules for hunters - just for me.
Let's list some multiple dog facts:
- more chaos or in the least, ambiguity especially where whistle or hacking handlers are concerned (specific to the OP's question),
- potential for a lost dog increases,
- potential for an incident (fight/crushed birds/ hard mouth) over a shot bird(s), cripples, etc.
- requires more effort from the handler to manage/keep track of/respond to what transpires especially if it's an unexpected situation,
- more tired dogs within a given window of time,
- less of an opportunity to provide a specific dog your undivided support through a critical learning curve,
- more birds found (??? disputable...refer to first item in this list).
I have conveyed my take on this topic in the past. This past season, I hunted one of my dogs with a friend's dog - last hunt of the day and on his request. Admittedly, he does not have the higher expectations of his dog that I do of mine BUT let's keep in mind that I like to think of myself as a dog trainer. My friend is a casual hunter and loves his hunting experiences with his dog NO LESS than I do with mine. This is not a right/wrong, but more a matter of preference.
So, it was a typically tough HOT day in AZ. My dog nailed a covey of Mearns after we covered some considerable ground. His dog came up and did a delightful back! I was impressed!! Then, she crept past my dog and went on point. Then, crept again and went on point again. Then crept yet again and bumped the covey which one "guest hunter" took a shot at, dropping 1 bird. His dog "self released" and went looking to retrieve the bird.
Honestly, I knew what I was getting into when we took our first step from the truck so, no big deal. I too had a blast proofing my dog which by-the-way, stood majestically through-out this performance! I was SO proud of my dog. (He knew it too!)
One of the guest hunters had a bird dog palate and suggested I keep a close eye on my dog in the event that it should "go missing". :wink:
Now, replay this same scenario with another group of hunters and you could conceivably lose a friend(s). I'm not here to judge. just sayin"....
Still didn't see the advantage of them both being out there other than we had 2 exhausted dogs after the hunt, instead of one. What was that brand's motto, "Just do it (your way)". :lol:

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Re: Commands for multiple dogs

Post by polmaise » Sun Mar 08, 2020 12:25 pm

I just Train them individually ,then take them out together when they are Trained .
I like to keep it simple. :D

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Re: Commands for multiple dogs

Post by cjhills » Sun Mar 08, 2020 9:50 pm

FF:
We have been through all this before. All the problems You seem have encountered were because the dogs you hunted with were not trained, not because you had more than one dog. I hunt with my children and grand children. I just can't see going on a hunting trip and having to leave a grand kid or two in the truck because we can't all hunt over one dog. Also when I had eight or ten dogs along the day was not long enough to run one dog at a time. And hunting multiple dogs is way more fun than one. I have hunted my dogs with poorly trained or untrained dogs. They just stand and watch the chaos and ignore it. I have had people thank me because my dogs honor their dogs point and retrieve.
Like Polmaise says, if you train the dog first he will be fine with multiple dogs.
In all my years of hunting I have never lost a bird dog. Our dogs are bred to keep track of me.
My dogs don't, crush birds or have hard mouths.
Our dogs hunt without handling, they do their job and incidents are rare. I don't remember any.
There no reason why the OP can't hunt his dogs together and a lot of guides I know hunt a brace of dogs. Some dogs need to learn to ignore the other dog and hunt on their own but they generally pick that up quickly when the find a few birds. If we hunt in a group the person nearest the dog flushes the bird and shoots...Cj

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Re: Commands for multiple dogs

Post by gonehuntin' » Mon Mar 09, 2020 5:45 am

cjhills wrote:
Sat Mar 07, 2020 7:36 am
Fitter:
I always hunt with multiple dogs. This can be a bit of and issue. With pointing dogs that are experienced hunter, we use very few commands in the field. Basically none so it is not and issue.
You can control that somewhat by using the dogs name as a prefix to the command. Like "Spot, Here". After you get pretty good obedience you can group train and they will get the idea.
I had a little girl who was at our kennel with her dad tell me I was cheating because I call them in the same order. She was wrong but I was impressed with her.
When I load the dogs at home I have the gate on my run open and call each dog individually. In the field I whoa the dogs and load each dog separately. With name and "Kennel".
They sort of get the idea but they do have a tendency to all respond to the same command when running in the field. I am good with that. I am not a big obedience guy in the field, except for "here". Most all other things they do on their own.....Cj
Same thing I used to do.
LIFE WITHOUT BIRD DOGS AND FLY RODS REALLY ISN'T LIFE AT ALL.

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Re: Commands for multiple dogs

Post by Featherfinder » Mon Mar 09, 2020 10:45 am

CJ et al, like I said, if it's what you enjoy, it's what you should do. There is NO salient advantage is all I said. Or perhaps I should add that the marginal or perceived advantages are FAR out-weighed by the potential for disaster? There is always an opportunity for something to go askew even with one good dog. Multiply that by ??% with multiple dogs. I don't go there, so I don't concern myself.
Specific to your offering, when you hunt with a friend's dog, you get what HE perceives to be a decent dog. You don't get to judge/assess/score his dog prior to allowing it to hunt with yours. Therefore, you take what you get or-should-I-say, you get what you deserve. If you know the other dog doesn't approximate your expectations and you still don't mind hunting them together, you own that too. I don't have that problem, regardless of the caliber of that other dog. We all enjoy each other's dog regardless - minus the problems.
I also see no correlation in bringing your children/grandchildren/family/friends into this multi-dog discussion? I might have missed something though. Wouldn't be the first time. :oops: My apologies if that's the case.
Some guides hunt a number of dogs at-a-time. The two I hired in Arizona (3 & 4 years ago) only used one dog at a time.
Part of the guided multi-dog show is simply that - show. If in fact that seems to give a particular guide a sense of advantage or pizzazz...that's his call. Keep in mind that the experienced guide faces all manner of clientele. Some of his customers couldn't walk more than 1 hour in ideal weather/habitat (got that right from the guide). As such, I understand there being less-of-a-need to ensure you still have a fit/efficient dog by the end of day - never mine at the end of 12+ consecutive days! Suffice-to-say, guides are....guides. Good ones know "what side their bread is buttered on". :wink:
Personal preference is part-and-parcel of our choice of hunt, vehicles to get there in, dogs breed(s) to hunt with, manner in which to hunt, firearms to hunt with, shells to use, etc. etc. Again...I'm not here to judge. Still waiting for that single advantage for the multi-dog hunt. I just scratched the surface on disadvantages and I'm confident that if those here-in chose to reflect, they could add a few of their own unpalatable real-life/sad multi-dog experiences....that could just as easily have been avoided/minimized.

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Re: Commands for multiple dogs

Post by Sharon » Mon Mar 09, 2020 12:16 pm

and this is what we are looking for on this forum members. ......several difference opinions felt strongly, yet said with respect and no nasty comments. Thank you gentlemen.
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Re: Commands for multiple dogs

Post by cjhills » Mon Mar 09, 2020 12:44 pm

FF
Evidently you did miss something. I clearly pointed out that when I go on a hunting trip with family, I think it would be silly and not much fun, to all hunt over one dog and worse to leave a few kids behind while the rest hunt over one dog. Much more fun to take two or three dogs and let everybody hunt at once. there are some rules for safety I hope that is clear and I do accept you apology
There is only one statement in your all your posts with which I agree.
" Personal preference is part and parcel of why we hunt". That is exactly right. so why do you work so hard to prove your point and that everybody else's personal choice is wrong. I do not care if you hunt with one dog that is your choice. If you can't, or not wish to train your dogs to deal other dogs that is your choice. I don't see how you won many trials or passed many hunt tests without dealing with another dog.
My choice is at least two dogs and more is better. The most beautiful sight I see is walking over a hill and seeing one dog on point and multiple dogs backing.
Again, the only reason for wasting my time on this is so the OP understands if his personal choice is to hunt his dogs together, there is no reason not
to it just takes a little training......Cj

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Re: Commands for multiple dogs

Post by polmaise » Mon Mar 09, 2020 1:20 pm

Each to their own' ..Is a famous saying and always gets gallery applause ,because that is nice and fits well.
When it is mixed with 'Each to their own,but let me explain specific scenarios that maybe,could be ,probably ,possibly and one day this happened' It kinda gets all cloudy .
...
Over this side of the pond we do activities which are In-Different I know , one of which is a 'beating line' to shepherd wild game to a flushing point . This can involve numerous dogs and handlers ,up to and more 20 on a Grouse moor (All breeds including Pointers.Cockers,Spaniels,Retrievers and the odd Collie and Terrier) It can also involve some close contact with either handler and Dog when we do 'Driven Pheasant' where dogs and handlers are almost 10 yards apart in a line with x500 pheasants running in front .
IMO . You couldn't set this up In-training on a daily weekly basis for a young dog having never done it before ,but you can 'Set the individual dog you have ' for this first time event' ..with Training.
So I agree with cj. .. Kids ,grandma ,uncle Tom coddly et'all ...and on the whole the dogs do pretty well considering all the distractions and In the firing line :wink:
This one's first day was eventful enough for him at 1 year old !
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TEJCMED ... e=youtu.be

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Re: Commands for multiple dogs

Post by Featherfinder » Mon Mar 09, 2020 3:41 pm

CJ, you seem to be struggling with my offering. If you want to golf, I recommend you use a set of golf clubs. If you want to play hockey, so be it but I suggest you use a hockey stick. I shouldn't have to tell you not to use a hockey stick on the golf course CJ but it doesn't mean you CAN'T. Since I neither golf nor hunt with you, I support you keep doing what you're doing.
I couldn't care less if you have 3 generations of family along or you hunt alone. I'm still waiting for the advantage of multiple dogs. I DO see an opportunity for this to go south quickly but I sincerely hope no-one nor any dog gets hurt.
We have an annual hunt with an average of ~30 - friends and family. Everyone has a wonderful time! ONE dog to 3 - 4 hunters - whomever wants to be in the group. Then they can switch groups/dogs next outing. Tons of fun for all including the dogs.
Having everyone out there with a "mess" of dogs is messing with safety, in the least.
Polmaise, with all due respect driven shoots are "shoots". In British terminology, I am a "rough shooter". I'm not here to say you are doing somethingwrong. I'm here to say I have no interest in driven shoots and therefore have no interest in my dogs being utile in that application. Yet again, not a right/wrong - it's just about preferences. And anyways, I can't throw my dogs high enough to get a solid point at driven shoots. :lol:
Last edited by Featherfinder on Mon Mar 09, 2020 9:50 pm, edited 2 times in total.

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Re: Commands for multiple dogs

Post by Fitter47449 » Mon Mar 09, 2020 7:01 pm

I appreciate everyone's input and while I can see the dangers in hunting multiple dogs of varying levels of trainig together, that's not what I'll be doing. The dogs wont hunt together, until the new pup has developed her own independence in the field, is backing points and honoring on retrieves like my current dog does. I've seen guys who run braces of dogs that completely fall apart without their brace mate. The main reason for the 2nd dog is because I need to have multiple dogs while guiding all day, rotating them in and out. These dogs will only hunt together when its just myself and them. My cousin and I hunt our dogs together frequently, but his dog is also trained at the level of my current dog. They know better than to steal points or steal retrieves. I generally ask alot of questions of other people before deciding to hunt my dog with another one. Again thanks everyone for the input. Its given me a few different ways to look at this that I hadn't considered though.

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Re: Commands for multiple dogs

Post by Featherfinder » Mon Mar 09, 2020 9:45 pm

Excellent Fitter, and that is what forums are all about - providing a variation of opinions. Some folk deem their opinions or those with another view to be either right or wrong. It's not necessarily like that.
If you are going to guide with your dogs, keep them at the forefront so that they remain healthy both mentally and physically.
Some dogs HATE being paired with a dog that they perceive they are being outperformed by. I used to trial with an ornery dog that, if in his mind was being outperformed would go after his brace-mate...I kid you not! I got a handle on it but he could never be trusted. Yet other dogs run in numbers get so competitive it compromises the limits of their conduct or demeanor. You can usually hear that handler for miles (so can the birds). It might work at the game farm. You will save on shells hunting wild birds this way.
A big part of the exceptional bird dog is more than how they have been trained. It has a great deal to do with their higher level of intelligence.
For example, a dog that is so often backing/honoring might trail behind his canine buddy because it works!
You may also have seen/heard of a pointing dog that would cut off then point/block running pheasants so as to provide opportunities for their owner. I had a dog do something like that while working Huns on the prairies one particularly windy day.
Just the other day, I was hunting with a friend and his dog. I was absolutely amazed at what I witnessed! This dog pointed a bird and handled the situation with class - steady to wing shot and fall. The owner was about to send the dog to retrieve by tapping him on the head. He missed the dog's head marginally but the dog felt the wind from his hand or anticipated or whatever. Rocky burst away taking 2 BIG strides towards the downed bird then wheeled right back to return to where he was pointing as if to say, "You missed! Come on bud...get it right!!" Neither the owner nor I said one word! With his dog standing by his side, the owner physically tapped the dog's head - this time. The dog completed his job with a flawless retrieve to hand. I found it humbling.
Then, there's the dog that develops a dependency working as a dog team. Put that dog out there alone and he/she stresses right out or somehow their work ethic is compromised, at best.
Amazing gun dogs and field trial champions are more than bone and muscle. They have the smarts to go with this. Respect their minds! You see, hunting a dog alone doesn't only provide opportunities for you and he/she to develop/hone their working skills. It also nourishes their mind, builds confidence, oozes class, gives them a chance to be front-and-center....
So, have at 'er y'all! All the best going forward Fitter. At the end of the day, I hope your dogs make you happy, however/whatever method(s) you deploy.

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Re: Commands for multiple dogs

Post by polmaise » Wed Mar 11, 2020 6:46 pm

And that is what forums are for .
Last time I looked ,this board had a title 'Gun Dog Forum' ?
Unless I have missed something ,commands for some dogs are in favor of others and that's just not right in my book ..no matter the breed.
Some 'bird dog folk' could perhaps learn a few things in discipline from other. when handling and or training two at a time (or more) .
Shame they don't show ,rather than tell.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=re2svHV ... e=youtu.be

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Re: Commands for multiple dogs

Post by Featherfinder » Thu Mar 12, 2020 9:52 am

Polmaise, excellent video!
My dogs handle exquisitely for me, minus the active handler intervention BUT I use pointing dogs so there is no need for handler intervention to the admirable extent you conveyed. In fact, it has been my experience that many folk that have had retrievers/flushers previously, are VERY difficult to convert into effective pointing dog owner/handlers - at lest more-so than those that had neither.
Kudos to you/your methods Sir! Keep the videos coming!

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Re: Commands for multiple dogs

Post by polmaise » Thu Mar 12, 2020 1:07 pm

FF, Thank you for the Kudos Sir'.
The breed need not be a limitation neither should the requirement for handler intervention ..Especially In Training! You get what you 'Train for' and more often than Not , if you don't train for it You get more than you bargain.
So, in keeping with the theme (somewhat) of commands for multiple dogs ...... There is Multiple dogs of multiple breeds with multiple handlers with multiple levels and multiple distractions ,and multiple connotations that could happen ..or Not' ..in this little clip of a Young 'Pointing breed' In Training to give you another video . :wink:
Me...? well I was only working my dog and the dog was working with me ..the rest can do what they want ...(which was cj's eloquent point)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qaZ-mXP ... e=youtu.be

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Re: Commands for multiple dogs

Post by polmaise » Thu Mar 12, 2020 2:51 pm

Featherfinder wrote:
Thu Mar 12, 2020 9:52 am
Polmaise, excellent video!
My dogs handle exquisitely for me, minus the active handler intervention BUT I use pointing dogs so there is no need for handler intervention to the admirable extent you conveyed. In fact, it has been my experience that many folk that have had retrievers/flushers previously, are VERY difficult to convert into effective pointing dog owner/handlers - at lest more-so than those that had neither.
Kudos to you/your methods Sir! Keep the videos coming!
Multiple commands and multiple dogs you say ? ..Throw in a bird .
Good video clip to watch .
https://www.facebook.com/fieldsportscha ... 731600466/

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Re: Commands for multiple dogs

Post by Featherfinder » Thu Mar 12, 2020 6:54 pm

When we compete in trials/tests we run in braces - with one other dog. Typically, that other dog is of a similar age but more importantly of a similar caliber (not always but mostly). Furthermore, their are rules or expectations specific to that event.
Running multiple gun dogs of varying levels of competence or unknown competence, with a number of folk at the same time is a whole other scenario.
You need not question or concern yourself with my field trial/test successes. I believe it to be better than some - not as good as others.
Polmaise, that is another nice video. I presume that is a young-ish Vizsla?

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Re: Commands for multiple dogs

Post by cjhills » Fri Mar 13, 2020 6:35 am

One comment: Never did I mention right or wrong. Only that there was no reason for the OP not to hunt his dogs together after they are trained separately. This is not opinion, it is fact and is proven by every field trial and hunt test I have ever seen. All run dogs in braces.
Also to the OP if you should ever decide to compete with your dogs, they will need to run with a brace mate and the more they have hunted together and seen other dogs of different levels of training the better your chances will be.
Polmaise: Nice young Vizsla doing what I like to see a young dog do. thanks
To the mods I expect you will shut this. Don't do it on my account. I am out. Thanks to everybody......Cj

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Re: Commands for multiple dogs

Post by Sharon » Fri Mar 13, 2020 12:04 pm

No need to shut this down. Nobody has called anybody a #$%^&*(
I do think though that everyone's opinion has been clearly stated several times.
Probably no need for more opinions from the same people. :)
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Re: Commands for multiple dogs

Post by polmaise » Fri Mar 13, 2020 12:20 pm

Featherfinder wrote:
Thu Mar 12, 2020 6:54 pm

Polmaise, that is another nice video. I presume that is a young-ish Vizsla?
About 7 month old ,It's not mine .

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Re: Commands for multiple dogs

Post by Featherfinder » Sat Mar 14, 2020 8:12 am

VERY nice Vizsla Polmaise!
CJ, I see no reason for the mods to shut you out. What did you say that was inappropriate???
I think you are being too hard on yourself. I for one, welcome your input. I have noticed - as an aside - that you also enjoy my postings. Please hang around Sir. It won't be the same here without your views - at least not for me and I'm sure many others would agree.

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Re: Commands for multiple dogs

Post by polmaise » Sat Mar 14, 2020 4:22 pm

cjhills wrote:
Fri Mar 13, 2020 6:35 am
One comment: Never did I mention right or wrong. Only that there was no reason for the OP not to hunt his dogs together after they are trained separately. This is not opinion, it is fact and is proven by every field trial and hunt test I have ever seen. All run dogs in braces.
Also to the OP if you should ever decide to compete with your dogs, they will need to run with a brace mate and the more they have hunted together and seen other dogs of different levels of training the better your chances will be.
Polmaise: Nice young Vizsla doing what I like to see a young dog do. thanks
To the mods I expect you will shut this. Don't do it on my account. I am out. Thanks to everybody......Cj
Thank You Sir' . I also understand that shut this is not shut you. I have neither the time or energy to play more with words .
I must have had a dream ..or a premonition, maybe even a message ,which showed a different reply ? ....
I am also out of this thread . The OP has probably had enough intel as they can 'Intake' . with their pup in about 9 months time .atb R

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Re: Commands for multiple dogs

Post by bobman » Wed Apr 01, 2020 7:58 pm

Due to time limits I usually work 6-7 dogs at the same time every morning

Every time I give a command I preface it, with the dogs name that I’m talking to, and the rest of them ignore the command

Never really even occurred to me that would cause a problem, they figure it out on their own
currently two shorthairs, four english pointers, one Brittany, one SPRINGER a chihuahua and a min pin lol

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