dog only partly retrieving

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setterpoint
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dog only partly retrieving

Post by setterpoint » Tue Mar 03, 2020 3:05 pm

my setter 4 year old will retriev a ball stick or any thing I throw but would not retrieve a bird I tried to force break her with good results
she will retrive a woodcock to me but a grouse she will go and mouth it slightly pick it up but spits it out I say fetch and walk away from her and she will come but leaves the bird, then go's back to the bird I can go to her and pick up the bird so she's not playing keep away ,
thought I had her trained when she brought a woodcock back I know some dogs don't like to retrieve them
don't know why she will not bring the grouse to me and I'll add she's soft mouth when I say give she puts it in my hand

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Re: dog only partly retrieving

Post by Dakotazeb » Wed Mar 04, 2020 2:51 pm

It would appear that your "force fetch" was not complete. You need to go back and repeat it or probably have a pro do it for you. Unless you are experienced at doing force fetch I've found it difficult to do yourself no matter how many books you read or videos you watch. Good luck.
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Re: dog only partly retrieving

Post by polmaise » Wed Mar 04, 2020 3:01 pm

setterpoint wrote:
Tue Mar 03, 2020 3:05 pm
my setter 4 year old will retriev a ball stick or any thing I throw but would not retrieve a bird I tried to force break her with good results
she will retrive a woodcock to me but a grouse she will go and mouth it slightly pick it up but spits it out I say fetch and walk away from her and she will come but leaves the bird, then go's back to the bird I can go to her and pick up the bird so she's not playing keep away ,
thought I had her trained when she brought a woodcock back I know some dogs don't like to retrieve them
don't know why she will not bring the grouse to me and I'll add she's soft mouth when I say give she puts it in my hand
Even Fido will 'fetch a stick' .
Urban Myth regarding woodcock .
Terminology of 'Force break ' and Your description of a command to release fido on a controlled retrieve process sounds all confusing to me , never mind the dog .
Too much videos on you tube , and too much learning in text can cause this issue . It's very common these days so you are Not alone .

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Re: dog only partly retrieving

Post by setterpoint » Wed Mar 04, 2020 7:04 pm

thanks for the reply, yeah I'm not experienced at it at all, like you said start again she should respond well haveing been thru this before
she did great on the table, had a little trouble transferring to the ground but
would retrive anything when I said fetch, mayby just needs more fetch drills,

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Re: dog only partly retrieving

Post by birds » Thu Mar 05, 2020 9:22 am

I think she is just trying to tell you she prefers not to retrieve grouse. Unless I was planning on competing I guess my take would be this - she is a setter and not a lab. At least she is finding dead birds for you. If she did a good job handling the live bird for me so I could get close enough to flush/shoot (at) it. I'd be happy with what I had and go pick up the bird myself after she showed me were to get it. I know that is probably heresy to some but I guess I'm just a heretical meat hunter. She's got "personality" :wink:

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Re: dog only partly retrieving

Post by polmaise » Thu Mar 05, 2020 12:32 pm

Going by the analogy of 'Force breaking' , which the OP stated had good results ??
But, obviously , going by the post ,It hasn't worked , Not that any method doesn't work ,just that it clearly hasn't in this case , with this 4 YEAR OLD dog and this handler in this case .
'Force Fetch' would be something different (as I understand it ) So you can probably educate me on that 'Birds' ?
'Dog only partly retrieving' is quite confusing !? .It comes across to a simpleton like me that the dog and handler does not have a process for 'Fido fetching a stick' , other than Fido fetching a stick , Setter or Not ! , but hey' if your game is to not bother in the games you play for a Setter , in competition or not , for the dog Not to retrieve , then crack on ......at 4 years old for the dog .
The term 'Doesn't like' is a cop out ! ...If the dog likes the process , it will retrieve a stinky Cormorant that has a stinky fish in it's throat ...said someone way back in my education . :mrgreen:

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Re: dog only partly retrieving

Post by setterpoint » Thu Mar 05, 2020 12:35 pm

I don't trial either just wild bird hunt, she a great grouse/woodcock dog will hold point for as long as it takes to get to her and let's me flush
will hunt dead find the bird and has retrive all the woodcock after I worked with the f f
just puzzled why she don't retriev a grouse, but we will work on it,

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Re: dog only partly retrieving

Post by setterpoint » Thu Mar 05, 2020 12:51 pm

I guess I dint make it to clear my bad, the dog from a pup would retrive ball sticks that I threw for her
thought she would be a natural retriever, first year hunting would not retrive a bird mayby there is where I messed up
let it go and said to myself next year retrieving will kick in 2nd year same thing not retrive etc,
finally decided I will try the ff , work fine on the table
transferred to the ground with a little trouble, but got to the point she would go get 4 or 5 differant things on fetch an bring to hand ever time
shoot some woodcock for her retrieved perfect, but still hasn't retrieved a grouse to me
I can't explain it any better than this, that's why I title this as partly retrieving, mayby someone on hear might have had the same issue befor
and see what they did, I know it's my fault not the dog,

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Re: dog only partly retrieving

Post by Dakotazeb » Thu Mar 05, 2020 12:54 pm

I guess each of us wants something different out of our dogs. But in my humble opinion, having a hunting dog that is a good retriever is a must. In the past I've had a couple of dogs that wouldn't retrieve but never again. One Brittany was terrific at tracking down crippled, running pheasants. She would find them, catch them, then mouth the heck out of them and leave them. Unfortunately there were times she found them a few hundred yards away and by the time I got there all I found was a pile of feathers and the bird had run off not to be found again. Or the time I shot a rooster on the other side of a creek. The dog went over, found the bird and then came back without it. I had about a two mile hike to get across the creek and retrieve the bird. A good retrieving dog (regardless of breed) is a very valuable tool.

To the OP, I think you missed something in your FF program. When you get to the "force" part it is difficult for an owner to complete it properly unless you are very experienced in the process. I think it would be money well spent to take her to a trainer for a complete FF program. Since she's already been through most of the FF training a good trainer could probably get her corrected in 30 days or less. Cost: Approx. $600-700. Since you probably have 8 more good hunting years out of your dog it would be well worth it.
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Re: dog only partly retrieving

Post by birds » Fri Mar 06, 2020 9:25 am

"I guess each of us wants something different out of our dogs." This.

Polmaise - I know very little about FF, but from what I have seen of the method I have no desire to use it on my dog. Having a dog retrieve to hand would be nice but its not that vital to me - I thought I made that clear in my post. So I couldn't begin (nor would I care to try - it would be like me attempting FF) to explain anything to you about this technique or any other dog training technique. I won't (can't) teach fighter pilots how to fly either. Sorry. :wink:

I don't like when people expect perfection from me so it has always seemed hypocritical for me to expect it in anything or anyone else. But that's just me.

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Re: dog only partly retrieving

Post by crackerd » Fri Mar 06, 2020 9:40 am

birds, force fetch is never about perfection but the *This* you cited above on different folks wanting different strokes from their gundog is spot on. FF for retrievers is about instilling a work ethic (for retrieving) and a foundation for advanced training if you are to compete in field trials or hunt tests.

For the OP to say "I tried to force break her with good results" - and then proceed to divulge the less-than-good results of a "dog only partly retrieving" strikes me as akin to a lady friend saying she is a little bit pregnant. Are or ain't - no middle ground on PG or FF.

Folks of Polmaise's "international gundog stature" - and of Trekmoor's - don't practice FF a'tall, but they almost always have reliable retrieving from their dogs. It would be my wish for the OP that Robt. (Polmaise) or Bill (Trekmoor) could set up shop with their training techniques in our neck of the woods so that the many (many) complainants whose pointing dogs aren't retrieving or are "only partly retrieving" - or those who think FF must be perfect - could learn from them.

MG

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Re: dog only partly retrieving

Post by polmaise » Fri Mar 06, 2020 2:19 pm

birds wrote:
Fri Mar 06, 2020 9:25 am
"I guess each of us wants something different out of our dogs." This.

Polmaise - I know very little about FF, but from what I have seen of the method I have no desire to use it on my dog. Having a dog retrieve to hand would be nice but its not that vital to me - I thought I made that clear in my post. So I couldn't begin (nor would I care to try - it would be like me attempting FF) to explain anything to you about this technique or any other dog training technique. I won't (can't) teach fighter pilots how to fly either. Sorry. :wink:

I don't like when people expect perfection from me so it has always seemed hypocritical for me to expect it in anything or anyone else. But that's just me.
My guess,is that everyone wants the best from their dog no matter the breed or sport or discipline they enter and probably (but maybe not ,a few have other intentions)
Regarding FF , it would be wise from the wise to not include it ,if one has never done it and as you say ,you haven't and also have No desire to do so.
Whether you don't require the vital part of any dog retrieving shot game in your acceptance is your choice, but the OP obviously has it as a requirement in theirs ..So respect is courteous to oblige or walk on bye.
It is my pleasure and the RAF that training techniques are not copied on here :wink:
We would probably get on well if we met at the tailgate or not ? I cuss a lot and like a beer now and then, I dress like a hobo most of the time and some folk think I am a Tramp when meeting me for the first time , but Suit and tie is just not practical where I work daily . I don't drink whisky, the smell irritates me more than bul*s*it .
I thought this little critter I was out with today at only 8 months old keeps me sane sometimes ..because it was just fun for both of us ...but there is a caveat to everything in life ! ...It was only fun , because the dog was only asked to do what it was trained/conditioned to do ! In that scenario ..which made it fun for us both . ...Setter or Boxer or fox tail cucumber if that is what the OP wants . ps Try training a Greyhound to retrieve to hand ..easy peasy my Grandad said ! ..Just have it chase right in to you with the bird in your hand :roll: :lol:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ElKGQLI ... e=youtu.be

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Re: dog only partly retrieving

Post by jasperb » Wed Mar 11, 2020 8:42 pm

birds wrote:
Fri Mar 06, 2020 9:25 am
"I guess each of us wants something different out of our dogs." This.

Polmaise - I know very little about FF, but from what I have seen of the method I have no desire to use it on my dog. Having a dog retrieve to hand would be nice but its not that vital to me - I thought I made that clear in my post. So I couldn't begin (nor would I care to try - it would be like me attempting FF) to explain anything to you about this technique or any other dog training technique. I won't (can't) teach fighter pilots how to fly either. Sorry. :wink:

I don't like when people expect perfection from me so it has always seemed hypocritical for me to expect it in anything or anyone else. But that's just me.
I don't think it has anything to do with perfection, it's about obedience and doing what is expected. If a pup can decide when or what he retrieves then what stops the dog from having the same line of thought on holding a point and coming when called?

What part about ff/ trained retrieve do you not agree with?

Everyone is entitled to their opinion and I'm not try to change your mind, simply curious as to what it is about it that you don't like.

Some folks hear force fetch and get ideas of some medieval torture tactic, and it's possible they saw it being done in a way that caused them to form this opinion. What does confuse me is when the same guy that uses an e-collar, whoa post or pinch collar to force whoa, but then draws the line at forcing a retrieve. When done right and with patience then it's no different. Everything we expect from our dog is an extinction of obedience, and ff is no different.

Again, it's just my opinion and you know what they say about those. I think any dog that is going to put a bird in its mouth should be trained to retrieve, there's really no reason not to. You can have the best natural retriever in the world but there's going to come a day that pup just ain't having it. Could be a bad day, tired or whatever but pups not going to bring you that bird. If pups never been trained, how do we make a correction in the field? Up until this point the dog has simply done what he was born to do, but just like "whoa", if the dog has been taught that retrieving is not an option then we can then make a correction, bird is retrieved and and we move on with our day. A dog that's been through a proper trained retrieve program should pick up anything you tell it to, be it duck, pigeon, woodcock or mockingbird.

On that note, about a year ago, I caught my then 7 year old daughter sitting in the middle of her bed as my lab cleaned her room. She was pointing from toy to toy, he would pick it up, drop it in the toy box and wait on his next instruction, both happy as a lark😂

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Re: dog only partly retrieving

Post by gundogguy » Sun Mar 22, 2020 4:58 am

jasperb wrote:
Wed Mar 11, 2020 8:42 pm
birds wrote:
Fri Mar 06, 2020 9:25 am
"I guess each of us wants something different out of our dogs." This.

Polmaise - I know very little about FF, but from what I have seen of the method I have no desire to use it on my dog. Having a dog retrieve to hand would be nice but its not that vital to me - I thought I made that clear in my post. So I couldn't begin (nor would I care to try - it would be like me attempting FF) to explain anything to you about this technique or any other dog training technique. I won't (can't) teach fighter pilots how to fly either. Sorry. :wink:

I don't like when people expect perfection from me so it has always seemed hypocritical for me to expect it in anything or anyone else. But that's just me.
I don't think it has anything to do with perfection, it's about obedience and doing what is expected. If a pup can decide when or what he retrieves then what stops the dog from having the same line of thought on holding a point and coming when called?

What part about ff/ trained retrieve do you not agree with?

Everyone is entitled to their opinion and I'm not try to change your mind, simply curious as to what it is about it that you don't like.

Some folks hear force fetch and get ideas of some medieval torture tactic, and it's possible they saw it being done in a way that caused them to form this opinion. What does confuse me is when the same guy that uses an e-collar, whoa post or pinch collar to force whoa, but then draws the line at forcing a retrieve. When done right and with patience then it's no different. Everything we expect from our dog is an extinction of obedience, and ff is no different.

Again, it's just my opinion and you know what they say about those. I think any dog that is going to put a bird in its mouth should be trained to retrieve, there's really no reason not to. You can have the best natural retriever in the world but there's going to come a day that pup just ain't having it. Could be a bad day, tired or whatever but pups not going to bring you that bird. If pups never been trained, how do we make a correction in the field? Up until this point the dog has simply done what he was born to do, but just like "whoa", if the dog has been taught that retrieving is not an option then we can then make a correction, bird is retrieved and and we move on with our day. A dog that's been through a proper trained retrieve program should pick up anything you tell it to, be it duck, pigeon, woodcock or mockingbird.

On that note, about a year ago, I caught my then 7 year old daughter sitting in the middle of her bed as my lab cleaned her room. She was pointing from toy to toy, he would pick it up, drop it in the toy box and wait on his next instruction, both happy as a lark😂
The only thing more Fun than that would be to hear the dog was sitting on the bed pointing toward the toys and daughter picking them up and dropping them in the Toy box.. :D :D

Hal
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Re: dog only partly retrieving

Post by jasperb » Thu Mar 26, 2020 8:23 pm

gundogguy wrote:
Sun Mar 22, 2020 4:58 am
jasperb wrote:
Wed Mar 11, 2020 8:42 pm
birds wrote:
Fri Mar 06, 2020 9:25 am
"I guess each of us wants something different out of our dogs." This.

Polmaise - I know very little about FF, but from what I have seen of the method I have no desire to use it on my dog. Having a dog retrieve to hand would be nice but its not that vital to me - I thought I made that clear in my post. So I couldn't begin (nor would I care to try - it would be like me attempting FF) to explain anything to you about this technique or any other dog training technique. I won't (can't) teach fighter pilots how to fly either. Sorry. :wink:

I don't like when people expect perfection from me so it has always seemed hypocritical for me to expect it in anything or anyone else. But that's just me.
I don't think it has anything to do with perfection, it's about obedience and doing what is expected. If a pup can decide when or what he retrieves then what stops the dog from having the same line of thought on holding a point and coming when called?

What part about ff/ trained retrieve do you not agree with?

Everyone is entitled to their opinion and I'm not try to change your mind, simply curious as to what it is about it that you don't like.

Some folks hear force fetch and get ideas of some medieval torture tactic, and it's possible they saw it being done in a way that caused them to form this opinion. What does confuse me is when the same guy that uses an e-collar, whoa post or pinch collar to force whoa, but then draws the line at forcing a retrieve. When done right and with patience then it's no different. Everything we expect from our dog is an extinction of obedience, and ff is no different.

Again, it's just my opinion and you know what they say about those. I think any dog that is going to put a bird in its mouth should be trained to retrieve, there's really no reason not to. You can have the best natural retriever in the world but there's going to come a day that pup just ain't having it. Could be a bad day, tired or whatever but pups not going to bring you that bird. If pups never been trained, how do we make a correction in the field? Up until this point the dog has simply done what he was born to do, but just like "whoa", if the dog has been taught that retrieving is not an option then we can then make a correction, bird is retrieved and and we move on with our day. A dog that's been through a proper trained retrieve program should pick up anything you tell it to, be it duck, pigeon, woodcock or mockingbird.

On that note, about a year ago, I caught my then 7 year old daughter sitting in the middle of her bed as my lab cleaned her room. She was pointing from toy to toy, he would pick it up, drop it in the toy box and wait on his next instruction, both happy as a lark😂
The only thing more Fun than that would be to hear the dog was sitting on the bed pointing toward the toys and daughter picking them up and dropping them in the Toy box.. :D :D

Hal
Wouldn't hurt my feelings any😁 She's got a 4 month old Llewellin of her own now keeping her busy!

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Re: dog only partly retrieving

Post by polmaise » Fri Mar 27, 2020 1:15 pm

jasperb wrote:
Thu Mar 26, 2020 8:23 pm
She's got a 4 month old Llewellin of her own now keeping her busy!
I bet it does ! Probably better keeping the dog busy :mrgreen:

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Re: dog only partly retrieving

Post by oldbeek » Fri Mar 27, 2020 10:49 pm

The FF I watched on internet taught to increase the size of the object retrieved. Standing Stone Kennels. Did my first FF on my dog 5 years ago. She was a challenge. we spent 3 weeks with 3 sessions a day till she snapped. OH, that is what you want. We compete in NSTRA and her longest retrieve was over 440 yards on a wounded bird with a leg hanging in a high wind. 4th of July weekend and she ran straight back to me passing a water tub on the way. 99 1/2 points. judge never gives 100. We do drills all the time. She fetches the paper every morning. She must be gripping it in the middle gently. If I don't take it from her she follows me around the house till I do. Never drops till I grasp it and say drop. Sitting in my rocker, I make her hold my hand gently in her mouth. I say hold. Even if she moves her tongue she gets scolded. Doesn't release my hand till told to drop. Practicing hold can be transferred to the field. AS she is coming to you with a bird you say hold, hold, till she is solid. Has the op trained with a big old gun shot homer? They are quite a mouth stretch. I use frozen birds in my training. My sons GSP would not fetch. I did most of his training in the field. He knows I am all business. I started to train him on my FF table only to discover he knew I would not take any of his crap. We ran completely through the FF procedure in 4 days. Both dogs fetch with tails wagging and a smile on their lips. An amateur can teach FF.

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Re: dog only partly retrieving

Post by averageguy » Sat Mar 28, 2020 9:35 am

After working with the pup, I took Spud for a run yesterday. 3 woodcock finds, treed on a den tree and then we ran this cold blind. Point, Track and Retrieve all in one 45 minute run.

I never pinched this dog's ear. Had no need to.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PwRlwQ0pr6U

Starts here.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kYgGciZwWiI

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Re: dog only partly retrieving

Post by Ouzel » Sat Mar 28, 2020 10:01 pm

Setterpoint: I've had two dogs who refused to retrieve a species they had not previously been introduced to, and, once introduced, they had no problems. You didn't say if the issue was long standing or brand new on grouse. Setters can be weak retrievers anyway so you may have to decide if 1) more FF is what you want, 2) hope it goes away with more exposure to grouse, or 3) just accept the way it is.

You could also take the advice of Fisvik in the "Help With Carrying" thread (above or below this one). It has applications to your issue.

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Re: dog only partly retrieving

Post by setterpoint » Sun Apr 05, 2020 6:30 pm

she pointed woodcock at 7 month old, grouse at a little over a year old has pointed many grouse weve killed over her points just hasnt retrieved
one to hand yet, shes been in a ton of birds mainly grouse, she can handel them as good as any retrieved woodcock last year,
guess we just keep working on it

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Re: dog only partly retrieving

Post by bonasa » Sun Apr 05, 2020 7:06 pm

Force breaking was incomplete, just go back to it. I am a firm believer in force fetch. Never had a problem with any pointer I put through. Fast and consistent retrieves on crippled , dead any type of bird from sparrows to canada geese on land or in water. A solid HOLD and recall is mandatory, although I strive for the sit and delivery until a GIVE command is ordered which may or may not be immediate.

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Re: dog only partly retrieving

Post by setterpoint » Fri Apr 10, 2020 8:28 pm

again she was retriveing any thing i threw or placed out in the yard on the fetch command and deleiverd to hand
she did all the things that the dogs in videos did arter finished the ff so i thought she got it
completed all the steps and as i said she would go get any object i commanded her to still dont know what i missed
shes flawless on her retrives, except grouse she hunt for them points them as good as any dog iv seen just hasnt deleived one to hand

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Re: dog only partly retrieving

Post by averageguy » Sun Apr 12, 2020 10:40 am

DId you overlay an ecollar at the end of your FF program?

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Re: dog only partly retrieving

Post by setterpoint » Sun Apr 12, 2020 1:34 pm

i hadnt used the e collar, only in the start and middle no need to she was doing it right no need to shock her
that being said think thats where i messed up when she didnt retrive the grouse to me should have inforced it with the collar,

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Re: dog only partly retrieving

Post by averageguy » Sun Apr 12, 2020 2:53 pm

Overlaying an ecollar has the been the last step in the Trained Retrieve process for all my pups. I have used the traditional ear pinch and more recently did not need it with my current adult dog.

In all cases once Hold and Fetch had been fully trained and the dog complied on the ground and on the table, I overlaid the ecollar.

I used the lowest level of stimulation the dog indicated it could feel. Stimulation started the moment I said Fetch and ended the moment the dog got the object in its mouth. Teaching the dog the faster the better and how its compliance with an already fully trained command turns off the stimulation.

Using an ecollar in this manner of training had started long before FF when I trained the Here/Come Command first manually and then with the ecollar overlay. Point being I do not use FF as the place I introduce and use an ecollar in this manner. It is about teaching the dog.

So not about frying the dog for not retrieving. However once the dog has been trained/conditioned in this way I did have a tool to address what you have encountered with your dog. If the dog dropped a bumper or a bird, I immediately stimulated using a low level until the bumper or the bird is back in the dog's mouth. It gives me a tool to easily address the issue in the field. With consistency it becomes unnecessary.

I don't know who's FF program you followed but Evan Graham's program is a good one and walks you through what I just touched lightly on here.

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