New Puppy- Training Question

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Joe3232
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New Puppy- Training Question

Post by Joe3232 » Mon Nov 25, 2019 9:02 pm

As detailed in another post, we have recently purchased a 5 month old setter puppy.

She has been started on birds (is pointing but not holding on the flush and used to training blanks).

I would like to continue her on live birds. My goal is to make the training sessions fun, just have her point and flush the bird.

My concern is that she is not used to the command "come". Right now she returns to me on the "come" command some of the times (basically when she thinks she is gonna get a treat).

Is it a crazy/dumb idea to let her point and chase birds without her being very consistent on the "COME" command?

I was thinking of letting her flush birds in a wooded area on a long check cord. My thought being that I could hopefully chase her down with the 100ft check cord if she took off or the cord would likely get caught up in something in the woods eventually if she really started to run.

Thoughts? Also does it hurt her prey drive if she is running hard after a flushed bird and gets caught up on the check cord?

Thanks!

cjhills
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Re: New Puppy- Training Question

Post by cjhills » Tue Nov 26, 2019 4:12 pm

No reason to let her chase birds, unless she lacks prey drive. pretty soon you will probably have a flusher if you just let her chase. the recall Won't make a whole lot of difference. A 100 ft check cord is nuts. Don't do that.....Cj

shags
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Re: New Puppy- Training Question

Post by shags » Tue Nov 26, 2019 5:50 pm

You need to think hard about what kind of outcome you want with your dog. Pointing and chasing is cute now, but continuing most likely will ingrain things you will regret later on. Think what you want in your version of a finished dog, then find a program to follow to that end.

100ft is way way too long for a cc. Besides being too unwieldy to be useful, it can be dangerous; a curl or two of rope around the leg of a dog running full tilt can result in nasty stuff like spiral fractures. What if your pup runs off after a deer and gets hung up somewhere you have no idea where she is?

Somewhere between 10-20 feet of good stiff rope is safer and more useful. Leave your cc out in the dirt and weather; exposure will help stiffen it. Stiff cc are easier to use and don't tangle as easily as loose pliable rope.

A less than reliable recall isn't unusual for a young pup. Keep working on it and make coming to you the best thing in the world for the dog. IME, cookies or treats should never trump chasing a bird, and I like it that way. You might try keeping a bird or two in your pockets or a birdbag, so when you call the dog, you can toss one so that she learns that birds are wherever *you* are. In the yard, treats and cookies work pretty well, anything that makes her happy that she came to you.

Joe3232
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Re: New Puppy- Training Question

Post by Joe3232 » Tue Nov 26, 2019 7:18 pm

cjhills wrote:
Tue Nov 26, 2019 4:12 pm
No reason to let her chase birds, unless she lacks prey drive. pretty soon you will probably have a flusher if you just let her chase. the recall Won't make a whole lot of difference. A 100 ft check cord is nuts. Don't do that.....Cj
Apologies, I am confused by this response (likely because I am new). I understand the part about getting a shorter check cord.

Are you saying have her point birds and then stop her with the check cord if she tries to chase them?

Joe3232
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Re: New Puppy- Training Question

Post by Joe3232 » Tue Nov 26, 2019 7:20 pm

shags wrote:
Tue Nov 26, 2019 5:50 pm
You need to think hard about what kind of outcome you want with your dog. Pointing and chasing is cute now, but continuing most likely will ingrain things you will regret later on. Think what you want in your version of a finished dog, then find a program to follow to that end.

100ft is way way too long for a cc. Besides being too unwieldy to be useful, it can be dangerous; a curl or two of rope around the leg of a dog running full tilt can result in nasty stuff like spiral fractures. What if your pup runs off after a deer and gets hung up somewhere you have no idea where she is?

Somewhere between 10-20 feet of good stiff rope is safer and more useful. Leave your cc out in the dirt and weather; exposure will help stiffen it. Stiff cc are easier to use and don't tangle as easily as loose pliable rope.

A less than reliable recall isn't unusual for a young pup. Keep working on it and make coming to you the best thing in the world for the dog. IME, cookies or treats should never trump chasing a bird, and I like it that way. You might try keeping a bird or two in your pockets or a birdbag, so when you call the dog, you can toss one so that she learns that birds are wherever *you* are. In the yard, treats and cookies work pretty well, anything that makes her happy that she came to you.
So basically you would advise working on a recall (using COME command) rather then getting her to point birds? Once we have that down then move to objectives/pointing?

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Re: New Puppy- Training Question

Post by shags » Wed Nov 27, 2019 5:38 am

Well, you know she points birds already, correct? So what is more pointing and chasing going to accomplish?

But she isn't reliable on recall. Will working on recall make things safer for her and easier for you or not? What will a reliable recall bring to your lives?

You can work on both. But IME it's better to have a plan when you are working the dog on birds. Sure, it's really fun to watch your dog seek game, find it, point, and chase and then you get to fire your blank gun. Yay. But what does repeating that over and over and over accomplish when you consider moving forward with training?

Maybe for your purposes a dog that does a quick point then flush and chase will work. That's great if that is what you want because you have it now. But if your pup is one that loves the chase more than the point, pretty soon the point will diminish and it will be all flush and chase. Will that work for you for the next eleven years or so?

Look objectively at your dog, your own intent and purpose for the dog, and plan ahead accordingly.

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AZ Brittany Guy
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Re: New Puppy- Training Question

Post by AZ Brittany Guy » Wed Nov 27, 2019 8:20 am

Joe3232 wrote:
cjhills wrote:
Tue Nov 26, 2019 4:12 pm
No reason to let her chase birds, unless she lacks prey drive. pretty soon you will probably have a flusher if you just let her chase. the recall Won't make a whole lot of difference. A 100 ft check cord is nuts. Don't do that.....Cj
Apologies, I am confused by this response (likely because I am new). I understand the part about getting a shorter check cord.

Are you saying have her point birds and then stop her with the check cord if she tries to chase them?
Yes. Chasing helps a timid pup but with a bold pup allowed to chase too much it creates problems further down the road.

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Warrior372
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Re: New Puppy- Training Question

Post by Warrior372 » Wed Nov 27, 2019 11:15 am

We let our brittany run off leash in the foothills behind our house at around 5-6 months. I have always thought of the "come" command as possibly the most crucial because it can honestly save your dogs life. I think everyone knows of someone who's dog has been hit by a car. I have even been hunting and seen a dog run out on thin ice and break through in the middle of the pond. The owners in this instance were quite old and if my friend and I were not there it definitely would have drowned - they were literally doing nothing productive to save it.

I taught come as a progression. I started with the dog on a 10 foot lead in the back yard - I would say "come" and he would either come or I would reel him in. Once he got to me I would praise with a lot of petting and repeat "good come". I kept him on the lead while training this until he would come 10 out of 10 times across several sessions without any reeling on my end.

I then progressed to "come" without a lead - I would either do this outside on a narrow side of my house or in a hallway in the house with all doors shut - say "come" and essentially because the dog has no other direction it can go it will come without the lead - I introduced a hand command at this point too and every time I would say "come" I would do the hand command so he could make a connection. Practice and reinforce this until your dog consistently comes 10/10 times - then move to doing the same thing in a larger part of your yard.

After he had the hang of this I moved to a larger part of my yard and progressed to saying "come", doing the hand signal and blowing into a whistle at the same time. I did this so while we are out hunting or hiking I can blow the whistle, he will check me / look at me and I can give him further direction - come, point left, right or say "okay" which to him means keep doing what you were doing.

I thought the whistle would be the end of it and I quickly realized that as he increased his hunting range he could not always hear the whistle - depending on which way the wind was blowing. So at this point I introduced a Dogtra T&B 2500. Every time I wanted him to check / come while out in the foothills I would blow the whistle and beep him on the collar so he knew to look up / look for me. This has been incredibly useful as he is pretty short and very easy to lose in tall grass - because of this I always put a northwoods bell on him and he hunts in a Cabela's ripstop vest for protection, but also so I can see him / find him a little easier. He is now 3.5 y/o and I still use the Dogtra collar and whistle - collar to beep him / correct him and whistle so he can locate me after the beep if he is far away.

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Sharon
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Re: New Puppy- Training Question

Post by Sharon » Wed Nov 27, 2019 2:20 pm

Joe3232 wrote:
Mon Nov 25, 2019 9:02 pm
As detailed in another post, we have recently purchased a 5 month old setter puppy.

She has been started on birds (is pointing but not holding on the flush and used to training blanks).

I would like to continue her on live birds. My goal is to make the training sessions fun, just have her point and flush the bird.

My concern is that she is not used to the command "come". Right now she returns to me on the "come" command some of the times (basically when she thinks she is gonna get a treat).

Is it a crazy/dumb idea to let her point and chase birds without her being very consistent on the "COME" command?

I was thinking of letting her flush birds in a wooded area on a long check cord. My thought being that I could hopefully chase her down with the 100ft check cord if she took off or the cord would likely get caught up in something in the woods eventually if she really started to run.

Thoughts? Also does it hurt her prey drive if she is running hard after a flushed bird and gets caught up on the check cord?

Thanks!
When one is new at training, I highly recommend they follow a programme. I wish there had been a programme when I started .
$150.00 but always someone on here wanting to buy second hand from you.

https://www.gundogsupply.com/pestpefisetd1.html
" We are more than our gender, skin color, class, sexuality or age; we are unlimited potential, and can not be defined by one label." quote A. Bartlett

polmaise
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Re: New Puppy- Training Question

Post by polmaise » Wed Nov 27, 2019 4:32 pm

Joe3232 wrote:
Mon Nov 25, 2019 9:02 pm
As detailed in another post, we have recently purchased a 5 month old setter puppy.

She has been started on birds (is pointing but not holding on the flush and used to training blanks).

I would like to continue her on live birds. My goal is to make the training sessions fun, just have her point and flush the bird.

My concern is that she is not used to the command "come". Right now she returns to me on the "come" command some of the times (basically when she thinks she is gonna get a treat).

Is it a crazy/dumb idea to let her point and chase birds without her being very consistent on the "COME" command?

I was thinking of letting her flush birds in a wooded area on a long check cord. My thought being that I could hopefully chase her down with the 100ft check cord if she took off or the cord would likely get caught up in something in the woods eventually if she really started to run.

Thoughts? Also does it hurt her prey drive if she is running hard after a flushed bird and gets caught up on the check cord?

Thanks!
Setters are just lovely creatures . Especially those with colour and coat.

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Featherfinder
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Re: New Puppy- Training Question

Post by Featherfinder » Fri Nov 29, 2019 2:28 pm

Joe, I agree with CJ. Too much chasing can become a problem.
I also agree with Sharon and Shag in that you need a clearer template to work from - some well defined goals and strategies to achieve said goals.
It sounds a bit to me like you are going to be chasing your tail, along with your dog's tail too. :lol:
Oh...oh...here it comes, "You should see ma dawg run!"
Get reliable experienced help, buy videos...do something with a plan/structure.
Without a reliable "Come" recall, you are heading for disaster.

Joe3232
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Re: New Puppy- Training Question

Post by Joe3232 » Mon Dec 02, 2019 8:39 pm

Thank you all. I bought huntsmith videos and following these steps. Hopefully its the right system for us

shags
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Re: New Puppy- Training Question

Post by shags » Tue Dec 03, 2019 10:15 am

Huntsmith is a good system. One of the best features IMO is that it requires a *quiet* trainer, no yammering, nagging, yelling which can really get in the way of progress. You know how when you try to wake a teenage kid - Joey, time to get up' ' Joe, c'mon, get up' 'Dammit Joey get your butt out of bed NOW!' Same with dogs, the more you vocalize, the more emotional you get. No bueno.

If you can swing it, sign up for one of the seminars. You learn so much, not only from Rick or Ronnie, but from the other participants. Getting to see lots of other dogs' and their trainers' struggles and successes is invaluable. Lots goes on at the seminars that you won't see in the videos.

Watch the videos from start to finish to get a feel for what comes next and to get an idea of how each step leads to the next. Refrain from adding or subtracting to the method until you have more experience.

Enjoy, best wishes to you and the pup.

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Featherfinder
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Re: New Puppy- Training Question

Post by Featherfinder » Wed Dec 04, 2019 8:24 am

Joe, just a subtle observation. You should not ask your dog to do something as vital as "come" when you are not in the position to insure compliance.
From your initial post, it should be noted that your dog has in fact already learned what "come" means.
Unfortunately - to your dog - it means she should "come" if she wants to, but not all the time. Regardless of your honorable intent, that is what she has already learned.
Dogs are pretty resilient. Your setter is NOT ruined but you are already starting out with a "fix" rather than a progressive start. Your dog must now learn the NEW meaning of "come". The change will be a small hurdle....no problem.
Down-the-road, nasty fixes have a way of transitioning or manifesting into OTHER problems. This can become challenging even for the experienced trainer. Joe, find a solid training plan/strategy, develop a template going forward so as to minimize fixes as much as possible.
Another indicator for me is that you mention having a solid investment in holding point and intro to the gun but do not yet have a reliable recall. Dog training is not all about fun and games. Sometimes we need to invest in those fundamental aspects that will serve us going forward, even if they are boring/repetitive/monotonous.
All the best Sir! You picked a SUPER breed! (OK....so I'm biased!)

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