English Setter I need your advice

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Outdoor
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English Setter I need your advice

Post by Outdoor » Mon Oct 14, 2019 7:52 pm

Ok...1st I'm not giving up on this pup. Here are the facts: I have had several dogs labs, GSP and setters, so I'm not green. This pup (18 months old now) I knew was going to be work but bought her anyway, so lets not even go there because that's water under the bridge. She comes from champion show background both sides with minor hunting (the problem)buried in there somewhere. She is deaf on one side, but The deafness is not an issue, I have been working with her since I brought her home 8 weeks. Discipline is pretty good, retrieves to hand and will sit on my left side till I take what ever is in her mouth. She knows here, come, sit, stay, whoa. I have had her on quail, pigeons and chuckers (which I have 4 training). The nose is very good and have seen her tracking. Started with retrieving dead birds to hand no problem, shooting over her is not an issue, but she was very hesitant on drive , could care less about a bird. She will Find it and just walk away...so we winged some chuckers to get the drive up. She has improved and will chase a winged bird every time. If she happens to catch it she will carry it 4 ever until I remove it from her. So there is no problem with picking up a bird dead or alive. I'm guessing she has been on on/over about 25 planted birds but She will not point. She will go right in to the bird with only the slightest hesitation of a point, but keep going to the bird. She has not been involved with a pheasant to date. Today was the worst ...she would not lead and start to hunt at all just follow me like we are going for a walk, she is so soft that when she comes to hard brush or thorns she will back up and go around. I'm the leader, I'm the bird dog. depressing day 4 me. In my honest opinion this is dog that AKC breeders who do it for show have ruined the breed. They over the years have removed her drive..her natural ability. Sure she is beautiful but not a hunter. What suggestions can you give me for this pup, many would give her up. Not me , I made the decision to get her good or bad.

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Garrison
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Re: English Setter I need your advice

Post by Garrison » Mon Oct 14, 2019 9:03 pm

How many live birds have you let her go in and grab? Might be you have been training her to do exactly what you don’t want. She knows what they are, don’t let her catch anymore. I would get Training with Mo and give it close read. I have hunted behind a show bred Setter. He didn’t have the go but he had a heck of a nose and pointed a lot of birds from a long way off.

Now watching his owner work the burs out of his coat was another story, yikes!!!

Garrison
“Heaven goes by favor. If it went by merit, you would stay out and your dog would go in.”
- Mark Twain-

Trekmoor
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Re: English Setter I need your advice

Post by Trekmoor » Tue Oct 15, 2019 5:26 am

I have trained quite a number of show bred gundogs. This applies to retrievers, spaniels, the versatile breeds and to pointers and setters. Their owners wanted them to work as gundogs , they liked the idea of turning up to shoot with a "beautiful" dog but beauty is in the eye of the beholder.

Almost without exception those dogs lacked "drive" by comparison with field bred dogs .One of those dogs was a show bred vizsla about 35 years ago. I spent a lot of time and effort on her for no result at all. All I managed to achieve was a dog that would walk to heel and sit at heel if a bird was shot. Her owner still took her to shoots though ….just having a dog with him seemed to satisfy him. Personally - - - I was very pleased to see her go back to her owner.

Making a sows ear out of a silk purse is not easy , it will still look like a silk purse. If you are satisfied with a considerably lower standard of work than you would get from a field bred dog then that's fine but if not then keep your present dog as a family pet and buy a pup from working stock.

Bill T.
The older I get, the better I was !

shags
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Re: English Setter I need your advice

Post by shags » Tue Oct 15, 2019 6:24 am

It sounds to me like you went cart-before-horse with your dog. IME, with low drive dogs, you have to unleash the wild child first, then reel it back in; it sounds like you've impeded the wild part and it has shut down.

What I've seen done to bring out point in bench-bred dogs, is to put them on a checkcord and do bird intro as you would with a little baby puppy. Pigeons work well, they can be clipped and are highly visible and will walk around in front of the dog. If it means leading her to birds, so be it. Insure her all the stimulation she needs, scent and sight. Kindly, gently and SILENTLY restrain her when she sees/scents, so that standing still is encouraged. The tiniest little jiggle of the cc should work to stop her. Flush for her, even if it's a flutter of a clipped bird, but don't let her catch. Absolutely no discipline with the cc, use it only as a tool to keep the dog from catching, and to move her with you to the next bird. The idea is to get her confidence and enthusiasm up while instilling the idea that stopping on sight/scent is a good thing.

To make her bolder in the field, try some birdless fun happytime runs, let her do her thing. Don't nag her, keep quiet - go merrily on your way; let her be. Sometimes even "attagirls" serve to keep the dog close and dependent. It really helps if you can find her a hunting buddy dog that works busy and won't run too big; she can take cues from that dog.

Local-ish to me are several trainers who work with bench bred dogs and do a good job with them. These folks are so patient and are willing to baby-step along but by and large they can develop those dogs pretty well. Maybe not all of them get to high competition standards, but to personal gundog or hunt test dogs the owners can have fun with. In my competition area we have show dogs of just about every pointing breed, and most of them are competitive on any given day. One guy has the sweetest little English setter female and I love to watch her.

Best of luck going forward. Working with project dogs can be frustrating but very rewarding. It sounds like you'll give your dog the best chance you can.

Meller
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Re: English Setter I need your advice

Post by Meller » Tue Oct 15, 2019 7:32 am

+1 on the buddy dog!

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Featherfinder
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Re: English Setter I need your advice

Post by Featherfinder » Wed Oct 16, 2019 10:23 pm

I'm with Trekmoor. Inevitably you will HAVE to lower your expectations. That is more realistic than trying to achieve unrealistic goals with a dog lacking genetic natural ability traits. As a crusty (deceased) friend once told me, "It's hard to make chicken soup from chicken _ _it!"
I have worked with similar dogs. At the end of the day, we established one thing. Even with the best intentions/efforts and reasonable achievements, the dog will be inconsistent, sub-standard, and too often, simply frustrating. In an era where "time" (not money) is our greatest asset, you need to see the bigger picture. What will your return on time invested translate into?
I've been working with dogs for 40 years. I suggest you cut your loses or simply lower you expectation which is easier, cheaper and microscopically less frustrating/disappointing. OK,I lied about the reduced frustration/disappointment....
Do NOT waist $$$ on a trainer. Of that you can rest assured. Someone taking on a dog of this caliber is your first warning, unless it is for free or VERY inexpensive - more like a study case or self-development agenda.
I once sent a dog back to the owner after just 1 week. He was disappointed that I didn't give the dog a chance. So he took the dog to another trainer who gladly took remuneration. I called the owner months later to ask how the dog was doing. He said, "Yeah...he's doing well."
His hunting buddy is a client of mine. I asked his buddy about this same dog. His response was, "That piece of sh_ _?!? We had it our for 20 minutes before taking it back to the truck for my dog. It's useless! He is looking for a pet home for him."
The guy could have saved not only $$$$ but that most valuable asset...TIME.

birddogger2
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Re: English Setter I need your advice

Post by birddogger2 » Sun Oct 27, 2019 8:23 am

Outdoor -

I agree with what has already been written, especially with what Shags had to say.

I also think you pushed a little too hard and the dog shut down. OK... it is done and time to move forward.

What to do? I have a couple suggestions. Shag's method with the checkcord is what I would have done...if the dog was making attempts to hunt. But I think you have to re-light the fire first.

First things first. Do heel/whoa drills in the yard. this will get the dog used to going with you when you go and stopping when you stop. I have detailed the way I do heel/whoa drills several times on this board so you should be able to look it up. Once your dog is fairly reliable in the yard, you could clip a very short lead on the dog and reinforce the heel/whoa drills with the lead on...to acclimate the dog to a checkcord.

After several yard sessions and some positive progress, go to the field. On your next walk, clip that VERY short(1-2ft) lead on the dog. This will acclimate the dog to having a lead on in the field. Then get a few pigeons and take them with you on your field outing. As the dog is moving about, slip a pigeon out of the bag and throw it out front of the dog so it can see it. Let the dog chase, if it does. Say nothing. Do nothing. After a bit... call the dog back to you and as it comes in...toss another pigeon.

Once the dog is actively chasing pigeons and moving out front, you can begin to re-ntroduce the planted birds on a checkcord as Shags suggested.

If the dog hesitates to go into heavier cover... that kinda is on you. Put on some heavy duty chaps or hunting pants, put the dog at heel and walk in. A hard hunting dog is most often owned by a hard hunter.

I had a pointer...years ago... that I made gunshy through stupidity. I determined to fix my mistake and took her with me during group hunts. Cindy stayed right by my side after the first gunshot, so I started taking her into the nastiest cover I could find. I chewed up a brand new pair of boots AND a pair of leather faced hunting pants.(This occurred in the days before cordura, BTW). The dog broke out in the waning days of the season and turned into a very good bird dog. The bonus was that she would deliberately dive into the nasty cover to search for pheasants to the point where she went from mostly pure white to pretty much a light shade of pink from head to tail, by the end of the day...but she routinely found birds that the other dogs did not.

I do not know where you are located, but if you are in the area, you might make a visit to the English Setter Club in NJ. In a couple of weeks they are having a field trial put on by the Hudson English Setter Club. A good number of AKC English setters will be competing there. Many have significant show breeding in their pedigrees, but do a creditable job in the field as Gun dogs. Yes, it can be done. There is one fellow that will be there who has put a dual championship on his dog... both a show and a field championship on the same dog. So, yes, it can be done.

BTW, I have seen this dog(as well as other AKC setters) in competition and judged it as well. They can, and do get it done in both walking and horseback Gundog competitions, and they are pretty too.

RayG

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Re: English Setter I need your advice

Post by DonF » Mon Nov 11, 2019 10:35 am

Trekmoor wrote:
Tue Oct 15, 2019 5:26 am
I have trained quite a number of show bred gundogs. This applies to retrievers, spaniels, the versatile breeds and to pointers and setters. Their owners wanted them to work as gundogs , they liked the idea of turning up to shoot with a "beautiful" dog but beauty is in the eye of the beholder.

Almost without exception those dogs lacked "drive" by comparison with field bred dogs .One of those dogs was a show bred vizsla about 35 years ago. I spent a lot of time and effort on her for no result at all. All I managed to achieve was a dog that would walk to heel and sit at heel if a bird was shot. Her owner still took her to shoots though ….just having a dog with him seemed to satisfy him. Personally - - - I was very pleased to see her go back to her owner.

Making a sows ear out of a silk purse is not easy , it will still look like a silk purse. If you are satisfied with a considerably lower standard of work than you would get from a field bred dog then that's fine but if not then keep your present dog as a family pet and buy a pup from working stock.

Bill T.
I agree with this. You've let the dog catch birds trying to get up drive. Your teaching her to catch bird's, work's sometimes! But if the dog will go to bird's in the first place, sound's like it does or did, then to get it more interested you went to letting it catch birds, I would say that's a training method that would back fire and sound's like it has. In your situation the first thing I'd do is change birds, past time for pigeons. To a dog I'm pretty sure a bird is just a bird till training makes it something else. Pretty hard to make any pen raised birds act like wild birds but easy with pigeons. Flush a pigeon and it leaves! Pen raised game bird might then again might not. Pen raised game bird's tend to walk around on the ground to much rather than get out of dodge! Pigeon coming out of a remote trap can be made to act like a wild bird, that is your job! You hve a dog bread to look nice trying to learn a game way in it's past. Put out the planted pigeons and when the dog get's to close simply pop the bird and go on, keep your mouth shut, nothing happened good or bad. At some point, maybe right away the dog is going to let you know it smells the bird, that is exactly the right time to pop the bird. Dog doesn't want the bird flying off it must stop and point right now. This is where a lot of people get in trouble, they try to be trainer's and give the dog just a couple more steps to see what it will do! Don't do that. A wild bird won't do that and neither should you! To keep the bird from leaving the dog must point before you can pop the bird, other wise it's flying off.

On the down side, show breeding can pretty much destroy the hunting instinct's in a dog, not all of them but many. But some can be brought around and if they do, they will only be as good as you think they are. Might be boot polisher's but then again that might be alright with you.
I pity the man that has never been loved by a dog!

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