FF or wait?

[collinedward]

I've have a 17mnth old GSP and he's whoa broke,steady to shot and collared conditioned at this point but is seriously lacks in retrieving.
Sometimes he’ll do a full retrieve, sometimes he won’t pick the bird up at all and other times he’ll do a ¾ retrieve.
One major reason I did not FF this past summer is he's super sensitive/soft, I can't man handle him and I really have to watch my tone with him or he shuts down.

After shooting 4 chukar for him this past weekend this is how it went.
Bird #1 shot perfectly he sniffed it and went about his way.
Bird # 2 Hamburgered and he picked it up and immediately drop
Bird #3 crippled it and a full retrieve
Bird #4 3/4 retrieve

One thing I do notice is he’ll do this more with pigeons and chukar more than quail or pheasant.

I know he needs to be FF at some point soon but with hunting season approaching I want to use him this year.

Should I wait til spring or can I hunt FF train at the same time or just put off hunting him another year?

Honestly I could be way over thinking this, I had the same feeling about whoa breaking him and we accomplished that in no time.

Hindsight is 20/20, I know I overlooked this issue during our training. I have zero interest in taking him to trainer.

[Dakotazeb]

I believe this question has come up before either on this site or another, but the consensus was to not do FF during the hunting season. I would agree and wait until spring or after your done hunting. Good luck!

[gonehuntin']

Wait until spring unless he starts eating of destroying every bird. If that happens, hunting will do him no good. Pull him out and ff him.

[bonasa]

Definitely wait until spring and do it over spring/summer, hunt as much as you can now.

[Cicada]

Do you hunt him with another dog? My dogs almost always do a solid retrieve if there is another dog in the picture and that seems to carry over when we are alone.

Grant.

[Featherfinder]

So, if you wait 'til spring to FF the dog, what do you do in the interim when you drop a bird? Or, do you blank gun the dog's finds for this season?
Or, are you going to allow your dog to learn unacceptable behavior for now, then embark on a fix for a habit you instilled?
If your dog doesn't retrieve, why wait to FF?

[CDN_Cocker]

I'd wait and do it after the season. You do not want to send mixed messages about what your expectations are. All retrieving must be done in a controlled manner. However there are things you can do to improve your current situation. Treat the dog like a puppy and start play retrieving with him at home. Be over the top when he goes to pick up the ball/dummy/bird and get right down on the ground to encourage him to bring it all the way to you. Same thing in the field. You might feel silly but praise is a pretty big motivator.

[mnaj_springer]

I'd wait and FF in the spring. That way you can enjoy the hunting season and maybe some fun, low pressure retrieves builds the dogs enthusiasm for the game. The only exception in my opinion is if the dog starts eating birds.

To FeatherFinder's point, I think your dog has already learned the "unacceptable" behavior so I wouldn't be overly concerned with that. I also get the feeling that the dog just needs to have fun with retrieving (based on the retrieve of the cripple) so in this case, low pressure during the season may not hurt. For what it's worth, my dogs also seem more excited about retrieving crippled birds than dead ones and that's okay because I'm not the best shot.

[polmaise]

I reckon you should remove all notion or mention or even thought that FF is anything to do with Retrieving whether it is in the spring,fall or any other season.

[reba]

Very few dogs are perfect, so be happy.

I do NOT like the idea of FF.

[Steve007]

Very few dogs are perfect, so be happy.

I do NOT like the idea of FF.

You may not, but the facts are that if done properly which is within the capability of anyone who commits to it, it results in a cheerful motivated retriever. Even in the off-season, it is a lot of fun to have a dog that you can play retrieving games with.

Opinions vary, especially among those who have never done it.

The OP should wait until the off-season, as others have said.

[CDN_Cocker]

You may not like the idea of it but if retrieving is something you want then it's a necessary step. It blows me away that people are against training a dog to retrieve but are fine training anything else.

[birddogger2]

My 2 cents, FWIW -

If your dog is "huntable" according to your personal standards...it is hunting season and I would say...hunt the dog and don't sweat the retrieves. If one happens...great. Praise the dog. It is a bird dog and not a retriever. Birds first, at least for me.

If not... whoa the dog, go pick up the bird and then release the dog to continue hunting. Maybe even heel the dog to the downed bird and have it watch while you pick up the bird and put it in your coat. If you have taught your dog to "hunt dead"...I would try that.

If the dog points the bird dead, picks it up and drops it, lays down with its paws on the bird or whatever...take what the dog gives you, give a bit of praise, put the bird in your coat and move on. It may not be what you want, but it ain't all that bad either. Irt keeps the dog wanting to find birds, which , again, is job 1, to me.

About the only thing I would not allow is for the dog to chomp on a bird. If the dog munches on a bird... I would not permit it to touch another until you are in a position to train that fault out.

You can FF the dog anytime. The hunting season is the only time the dog can learn what it needs to learn about hunting and handling birds in their natural environment. To me...that learning opportunity is more valuable than teaching the retrieve for a bird dog.

RayG

My perspective might be a little different than some, as I train my pointers to compete in American Field trials, where birds are not killed and no retrieve is required. I don't actively discourage retrieving, but I don't encourage it either. I do not FF or train for a retrieve.
I do insist that the dog "hunts dead".

[Trekmoor]

I have never needed to train F.F. to any member of any of the gundog breeds. It is possible to work with whatever a pup shows me it has got in the way of a "retrieve instinct" in order to first boost that instinct and then do all the fancy stuff with it like steadiness, deliveries and directional training.

F.F. does work well . I've done it but , with gundogs, have never actually "needed" to do it. If I ever did need to do it I would probably never breed from that dog.

Bill T.

[averageguy]

collinedward,

Ray G's post outlined a workable approach to handling your dog through this present season which is already off and running.

Bill T's, post makes an excellent point (that amazingly so many here in the US miss entirely); which is the rest of the gun dog world outside of the US does not automatically assume every dog needs an ear pinch, toe hitch based FF program in order to give most hunters the level of performance they desire in their gundogs while hunting.

Teaching a dog to diligently "Hunt Dead" is far more important in recovering downed birds than if the dog will sit and hold the bird until you take it, and that conditioning/training begins when the dog is a baby and has nothing to do with FF.

The Perfect Retrieve DVD you can find at this link walks you through in great detail how dogs can be trained to retrieve to hand without using an ear pinch or toe hitch. It suits a lot of amateur trainers and their dogs. It teaches Hold and then uses an ecollar at the lowest levels necessary to get the desired result. I modified this approach to include some PR treat based rewards when polishing the natural retrieve (which I nurture from a baby) to include a sit and hold delivery to hand, with my current dog. It worked very well and sounds like an approach that would suit you and your dog when you take up this training subject. http://www.perfectionkennel.com/order-dvds.html

Once trained nearly 100% of corrections in the field will be made with an ecollar using low level stimulation when a dog drops a bird regardless of its prior method of training, so I have found the approach to lack nothing in terms of keeping a dog on track in retaining its training. I have trained other dogs using the ear pinch based programs and gotten good results, but having also trained with modified approaches, I know there are several alternative approaches which produce excellent results depending on the trainer and the dog.

Best of Luck with your Dog and Happy Hunting.

[cjhills]

The Winds of Autumn are starting. Snow today
If you decide to actually do a force fetch make sure you are mentally tough enough to do it. It is worse to start and not finish than not to start at all. It can be brutal on some dogs. Intelligent dogs are harder than mentally slower dogs.
If you do it yourself you need to look at some of the methods that are more conditioned retrieves than FF.
Whatever you do go through a season if you can. Many decently bred dog's retrieve will improve with more opportunities. I have MH titled many dogs that learned to retrieve on wild birds only. But as someone said you obviously can't let him eat birds.
Be very careful enforcing a retrieve with the e collar, you can easily send the wrong message. Same goes for punishing a dog for eating a bird.
Any use of the e collar when the dog has a bird has risks….Cj

[averageguy]

Collinedward,

yes by all means buy and follow the DVD I recommended vs just strapping on an ecollar and pushing buttons, in case that was not obvious.

The point I was making was whether a dog is FF using an ear pinch or the method shown in the DVD I recommended, your downstream corrections in the field if and when needed (e.g. dog is hot and spits out a bird before completing a retrieve to hand), is going to make use of an ecollar vs the highly unlikely trying to get ahold of the dog's ear, (or you might judge a verbal command reprimand suffices).

Ecollars can be a very effective training tool in re-enforcing already trained commands, but should never be used until that command has already been trained, understood and complied with by the dog in numerous controlled situations prior.

[Featherfinder]

FF is far from the ONLY resolve for a dog that chooses not to retrieve. That said, shooting birds over a dog that is "steady to shot" and then is allowed to decline retrieving is most assuredly like backing up for a head start. While I stand alone in my recommendation, I still believe you are condoning unacceptable behavior which you will have to fix....later.
The time you invest in working towards a retrieve is still valuable time with your dog.
Providing a dog with experience handling wild birds is priceless. There is no way I would pass this up. I am suggesting you prevent him from be allowed to decline a retrieve.
That may be especially challenging if you hunt alone with a steady to shot dog.

[polmaise]

I have never needed to train F.F. to any member of any of the gundog breeds. It is possible to work with whatever a pup shows me it has got in the way of a "retrieve instinct" in order to first boost that instinct and then do all the fancy stuff with it like steadiness, deliveries and directional training.

F.F. does work well . I've done it but , with gundogs, have never actually "needed" to do it. If I ever did need to do it I would probably never breed from that dog.

Bill T.

Makes you wonder why ''Whoa' is so in training a bird dog when pointing , but No ''Whoa" when the bird is shot or fell ?, even So' , why Fetch if the bird is shot So close after the foot is punted,the bird ,One would not require a retrieve from the dog ? ..One could collect themselves .So' fetch would Not be required ....In such a case ...never mind ...FF.

[Trekmoor]

Robert , I've never been very sure of what the "whoa" command is supposed to accomplish ? I don't use it or have one ….unless it serves the same purpose as a "stop whistle ?" I do use that during some retrieves or if a dog is starting to chase sheep or deer or rabbits but never to keep a dog steady on point to a bird.

If a dog is already pointing or is thinking about pointing, I leave it alone until I am near enough to it to command the flush and shoot the bird.

So - - - - does the whoa command work as a way of keeping a dog steady on point or is it a vocal command used in place of my whistled one ?

Bill T.

[polmaise]

Robert , I've never been very sure of what the "whoa" command is supposed to accomplish ? I don't use it or have one ….unless it serves the same purpose as a "stop whistle ?" I do use that during some retrieves or if a dog is starting to chase sheep or deer or rabbits but never to keep a dog steady on point to a bird.

If a dog is already pointing or is thinking about pointing, I leave it alone until I am near enough to it to command the flush and shoot the bird.

So - - - - does the whoa command work as a way of keeping a dog steady on point or is it a vocal command used in place of my whistled one ?

Bill T.

Dunno ..eitheR ??
But ,it ismost probably reassuring to some handlers who speak .Much like those who FF or not ,for whatever reason .

[Featherfinder]

Dunno either?!? I think "whoa" is for the owners, not the dogs.
Either the dog is steady or it is unsteady. The word "whoa" does not make a dog steady, at least that has been my experience. "Whoa" (in the field) typically identifies an unsteady dog which logically needs more work or....you wouldn't need to say "whoa".
Watching some folk use "whoa" might appear to the untrained eye as if it's actually a release command.

[cjhills]

I always wonder why people get so bent out of shape about a " whoa" command. Whoa means nothing to the dog until it is taught to mean something.
so, it is the same as a whistle. To my dogs a sharp quick whoa means stop until I tell you otherwise. It would stop dogs from chasing, running into a dangerous situation or any other reason I want the dog to stop. I am reasonably sure everybody has a stop command of some sort. A longer drawn out whoa is a caution and I use it with a young dog on point if he is thinking about moving. All pack animals have some signal to caution their hunting partners.
OP: I think you should wait until the off season to FF you might not need it then......Cj

[Featherfinder]

CJ, I agree that "whoa" is a utile obedience command such as "stay" or "come" or whatever word(s) work for folk to stop/protect their dogs.
The thing is, folk use it as a working command on birds while hunting their dogs. Most folk typically OVER-handle their hunting dogs. It's a bit like telling your dog, "Left...right...left...slow...slower....OK move on...left...more left...now right...straight...right....whoa...go ahead...".
Further-more, you can't possibly know when your dog is going to find a (wild) bird, especially if you don't always have eye contact with the dog (dense early season grouse/woodcock cover or over a knoll, etc.) so how can it be utile in this application? And yet, that is where I find "whoa" is most often used. It more reflects volatility in the dog's training - more like a teetering house-of-cards. That is why the innocent observer might in fact see it as a release command instead of stopping a dog. In some cases, it is further confounded by being uttered to an ALREADY stopped/pointing dog! ?!?
I won more than my fair share of trials displaying dogs that pointed reliably while I flushed with my back to my dog, fired my blank, put my gun away, then turned to sachet back to my STILL standing dog while the competition approached their standing dog uttering a series of "whoas", duck walking sideways to try keeping an eye on their volatile dog while hoping to find the bird. Then, on the flush they would holler, "whoa!!" praying their dog wouldn't break. It was quite comical actually.
My goal is to have a dog learn through unimpeded focus on the task at hand (finding and pointing birds for us). While working together with me/the owner, dogs experience success. There is little to no room for any invasive verbal run-on in that delightful performance let alone "whoa", unless we aspire to make this word a part of the act. Personally, I do not. Either your dog gets it right or, it's wrong.
I appreciate that even when I hunt I am ensuring the dogs retain the transparently clear expectation. I do not relax my expectations just because we have travelled a long way to hunt uncooperative wild birds. The rules are the rules and dogs prefer knowing rather than it being a constantly moving target. We get more consistency, more pleasure....oh, and more birds opportunities too!

[Trekmoor]

Dunno either?!?

That is Scottish for "I don't know either." Scotland is a country with several languages at least two of which are spoken by just about everybody. One is English, one is Gaelic, one is Doric and just to make things even more confusing we are in the habit of mixing all of them up into the way many Scots , including Polmaise and myself speak. I tend to write using what I hope is fairly good English but, like Polmaise , I tend to speak in broad Scots …. Dinnae fash yersel aboot it aw , wir only daein it tae drive ra English roond ra bend !

The "whoa" command is basically just a stop whistle given as a verbal command then ? I blow the whistle for stop if the dog is at any distance from me , if a dog is close to me it seems to respond by behaving fairly well just because of my presence ….or because I have told it to sit. I never blow the stop whistle on a dog that is on point and I never tell it to sit either.

I never hear "whoa" used on this side of the pond but I often hear stop whistles blown with no effect at all ! Many pointer/setter trailers carry two whistles with them . When I asked why about 25 years back I was informed that one of the whistles meant "stop" to the dog and the other one meant …" Stop or I will come out there and get you and marmalise your backside !"

In vain did I point out that the very first whistle peep blown should mean that to the dog , pointer and setter trialers still insist on carrying two whistles over here. They seem to think that pointers and setters brains work differently to all of the other pointing dog breeds .....they do not !

Bill T.

[cjhills]

CJ, I agree that "whoa" is a utile obedience command such as "stay" or "come" or whatever word(s) work for folk to stop/protect their dogs.
The thing is, folk use it as a working command on birds while hunting their dogs. Most folk typically OVER-handle their hunting dogs. It's a bit like telling your dog, "Left...right...left...slow...slower....OK move on...left...more left...now right...straight...right....whoa...go ahead...".
Further-more, you can't possibly know when your dog is going to find a (wild) bird, especially if you don't always have eye contact with the dog (dense early season grouse/woodcock cover or over a knoll, etc.) so how can it be utile in this application? And yet, that is where I find "whoa" is most often used. It more reflects volatility in the dog's training - more like a teetering house-of-cards. That is why the innocent observer might in fact see it as a release command instead of stopping a dog. In some cases, it is further confounded by being uttered to an ALREADY stopped/pointing dog! ?!?
I won more than my fair share of trials displaying dogs that pointed reliably while I flushed with my back to my dog, fired my blank, put my gun away, then turned to sachet back to my STILL standing dog while the competition approached their standing dog uttering a series of "whoas", duck walking sideways to try keeping an eye on their volatile dog while hoping to find the bird. Then, on the flush they would holler, "whoa!!" praying their dog wouldn't break. It was quite comical actually.
My goal is to have a dog learn through unimpeded focus on the task at hand (finding and pointing birds for us). While working together with me/the owner, dogs experience success. There is little to no room for any invasive verbal run-on in that delightful performance let alone "whoa", unless we aspire to make this word a part of the act. Personally, I do not. Either your dog gets it right or, it's wrong.
I appreciate that even when I hunt I am ensuring the dogs retain the transparently clear expectation. I do not relax my expectations just because we have travelled a long way to hunt uncooperative wild birds. The rules are the rules and dogs prefer knowing rather than it being a constantly moving target. We get more consistency, more pleasure....oh, and more birds opportunities too!

So, what you are really all Jacked up about is not the whoa command, but handlers who over handle, I get that. giving any command when a dog moves on the flush in a AKC Master hunt test is a disqualification. I never payed attention to the other handlers in tests or trials. So I do not know or care what they do. I guess I must be lucky but I haven't seen handlers do the things that you have. Maybe we have a better class of
competitors......Cj

[Featherfinder]

"Jacked up". Sounds like fun!?!? CJ, horseback and walking trials are typically run in braces, unless you are a "bye dog". As such, it's pretty hard NOT to witness what your brace-mate's handler is doing on many occasions.
"You're not often right CJ but this time, you've got it wrong." That too, is wee a bit of Scottish humor or should I say humour?
Wheesht Bill...

[Trekmoor]

It's definitely "humour" …. you lot cannae spell tae save yersels' !!

Bill T.

[cjhills]

A bit difficult to see how there can be a right or wrong in my posts. But enough of the Hi Jack.
My Gramma was from Scotland. I never did know what she was talking about, I dang sure would not try to write anything she said.....Cj

[Featherfinder]

Auch yer heed Trechy! I dunna ken yer drivel.
How's that Bill or do you more often get "Oor Wullie"?
You guys (you and Polly) are a riot!! Glad your part of the clan.
CJ, I've competed in AL, CT, MI, OH, PA, NY, WI and Canada. Some of these folk might have something to say about your perception of being a "better class". Master Hunt Tests are also run in braces and your dog is required to back or honor. This being the case, how can you not "pay attention" to what your brace-mate is doing?
Ah think yur Granny woood be giving you a wee skelf reet aboot noo….aye!

[Trekmoor]

Auch yer heed Trechy! I dunna ken yer drivel.
How's that Bill or do you more often get "Oor Wullie"?

It wasn't bad but "Auch yer heed" is meaningless and also has incorrect spelling . The word "Auch" should be "och" and the word "heed" should be "heid." - - - - As in ," Och ! Awa ind bile yer heid !"

In Britain I answer to both "Bill" and " Wullie" ……..but I often get called a few other things too !

I see I have dragged this thread far from it's original subject ….sorry about that. I tend to do the same thing on the British gundog training forum I infest too ! :roll:

Bill T.

[Featherfinder]

Thanks for the lesson Wullie but I do apologize for taking this on a tangent as CJ alluded to.
The reason I would do some work on the retrieve NOW is that it can be done in segments right at home as opposed to just when you go hunting.
Often times, bird-doggers make shooting their priority. In these situations, taking your dog hunting so that YOU can shoot at wild-flushed birds or have your dog bust to race after a downed or worse yet a missed bird is "untraining". All of these situations mean you have to - at some point - backtrack those ingrained habits YOU allowed to develop. Instead, I would nurture the retrieve AND run on wild birds but no shooting unless you have control of the situation. Remember, we do this to develop our dogs. If we get this right and invest in our dogs, there will be PLENTY of shooting to follow.

[averageguy]

C

[Featherfinder]

Averageguy X2. The key word(s) as I recommended previously is, "now".

[JONOV]

Very few dogs are perfect, so be happy.

I do NOT like the idea of FF.

Please. It's not a difficult or cruel concept. It can become so if you misapply it.

It is no different than what my wife would use to potty-train or teach children with autism behaviors.

IE, kid refuses to put shoes on, then has to walk across gravel/woodchip playground, puts shoes on, stimulus removed. Dog retrieves, stimulus removed.

[Featherfinder]

Very True JONOV!
Also, please let your wife know she has my utmost respect. Thank God for people like her!!

[collinedward]

My plan right now depending on a few things is to hunt him some this November/December. I'm going to order the Perfect Retrieve DVD
(unless someone on here wants to get rid of theirs) and start working on him in January. I would start sooner but I certainly don't want to rush.

If all else fails I think I will end up taking him to Perfection Kennels in spring.

I've came to the conclusion after talking with several people that I may have caused this issue in the house. When he was younger he would carry/grab random items from different rooms in the the house, a lot of times he would bring items straight to me. This was kinda annoying when he would create a small collection of underwear, socks, toys, shoes and other random crap in the living room. Well he no longer does that and now I have a hunting dog that sporadically won't retrieve.

Lesson learned.

[collinedward]

Rare pic with a bird in his mouth..

[gonehuntin']

My plan right now depending on a few things is to hunt him some this November/December. I'm going to order the Perfect Retrieve DVD

We're I you, I'd get smart FETCH by Evan Grahm. It's the method we've been using to ff dogs for 50 years and the best system out there. I have not seen the Perfection DVD but it's undoubtably just a copy of Smart Fetch.

[averageguy]

I have both Smart Fetch and Perfect Retrieve DVDs. Both are excellent instructional materials for training the Trainer. At this point everyone's FF program has a good deal of similarity, but the OP specifically mentioned his dog is "super soft" and he has to be very careful or the dog will "shut down". My input is the Perfect Retrieve approach is the better fit for this handler and dog based on that key information.

GH, your experience and comfort level using FF is far beyond the vast majority of the rest of us, and soft dogs can be extremely unforgiving of handler errors. I think the key differences between these two programs equate to considerably less risk of amateur trainers getting into trouble using the Perfect Retrieve and that is why I used it on my current dog and recommend it to others.

[gundogguy]

My plan right now depending on a few things is to hunt him some this November/December. I'm going to order the Perfect Retrieve DVD

We're I you, I'd get smart FETCH by Evan Grahm. It's the method we've been using to ff dogs for 50 years and the best system out there. I have not seen the Perfection DVD but it's undoubtably just a copy of Smart Fetch.

+1.. This thread was 1st posted on Oct 9. If the process had been started then a 17 month old dog would be almost completely retrieve proof by now November 2. easily finished by Thanksgiving!
Hal

[polmaise]

I've have a 17mnth old GSP and he's whoa broke,steady to shot and collared conditioned at this point but is seriously lacks in retrieving.
Sometimes he’ll do a full retrieve, sometimes he won’t pick the bird up at all and other times he’ll do a ¾ retrieve.
..........
Hindsight is 20/20, I know I overlooked this issue during our training. I have zero interest in taking him to trainer.

Well, It's now 18 month old and some big Pants are either on or off ! ?
There is a DVD available on line .."Coulda ,shoulda ,Woulda" . Mostly it's Free on a keyboard.

[Featherfinder]

Exactly gundogguy...

[Ouzel]

AG nailed it. Teach a "trained retrieve" with PR and then overlay with the ecollar. No problem doing it during the hunting season.

[averageguy]

P

[polmaise]

Photo from this morning. Hence the title "Perfect Retrieve"

Neither the dog or the duck looked wet .
....
Cool pic of hold though.

[averageguy]

And your point would be What? Are you so unfamiliar with Hunting that you have never shot a duck over dry land?

[polmaise]

whilst one would like to debate semantics ..not!
It is so frequent that the details are applauded.
Nice Hold .....
A paint roller doesn't have the same picture , but it does ...and That is great

[averageguy]

Y

[averageguy]

H