What is my next step??

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Feedjake
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What is my next step??

Post by Feedjake » Wed Sep 18, 2019 11:07 am

Hi folks! As indicated by my "pup" status, I am just that to the gundog owner, trainer world. I have a 4 month old brittany male. I've been reading and watching training do's and don'ts ad nauseam for the last several weeks. We've been working on obedience and he's coming along fine. I seem to be paralyzed as to my next step. I want to test his "birdiness" but am afraid to mess up. I keep reading that birds make the bird dog, but when? I've taken him into the woods for walks but we havent gotten into any birds yet. When should or do I introduce pigeons. There seems to be so much conflicting info out there that it's hard for a beginner to confidently progress. Please help. Thanks
Last edited by Feedjake on Sat Oct 12, 2019 10:45 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Sharon
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Re: What is my next step??

Post by Sharon » Wed Sep 18, 2019 1:08 pm

Welcome to the forum.

Be assured you will make some mistakes. That's how you and the dog learn. When I started out , I well remember wanting a PLAN- step1, step 2....... The closest thing to that imo is https://www.gundogsupply.com/pestpefisetd1.html
Have a look at it and see if it will meet your needs. Enjoy:)

................................................
Reminding members to read the "New Members" category. Feed jake has written up a very good info post which will give you background info on his history.
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Feedjake
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Re: What is my next step??

Post by Feedjake » Wed Sep 18, 2019 3:08 pm

Sharon
Thank you for your response. The dvd set may be just the ticket. I would also appreciate any input. Thanks
"He is the prospector of the air, perpetually searching its strata for olfactory gold"
A.L.

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Re: What is my next step??

Post by shags » Thu Sep 19, 2019 5:59 am

Welcome and congrats on the new pup.

Everyone has their own method of "puppy, meet bird" so you'll need to sort out what works best for you

I take my puppies for lots of walks and let them develop boldness laced with cooperation. I want them to be independent but also to respond to a few commands...Let's go, Here, Wait, and This way. I make sure the cover is appropriate for young pups, nothing so gnarly that they can't punch it, but not like a putting green either.

Where I live there is no possibility of introducing puppies to wild birds, so my pups get dizzied pigeons. Just one or two, and not every day. Sometimes not every week, although more often in the very beginning because I want them to learn to hunt and to anticipate that there might be birds out there.

I plant the birds, or have someone else do that while I'm with the pup, then walk 'aiming' the puppy in the general direction of the pigeons, going into the wind. Walk at a normal pace, keep quiet, no nagging. Let the pup find them on his own. Some of my puppies have slammed point on their first bird(s), some dove in and flushed, some kind of rooted around and pounced. Doesn't matter how they react at this point, the idea was for them to realize that there's birds out here and that they are excited to find more.

IME it's important to have one's head on straight with there first bird exposures. Be a trainer first, and an owner second. Pups react differently and a trainer can't let emotions like elation or disappointment get in the way, as what happens with owners sometimes. A puppy that hits a nice point the first time out might be a world beater later on, or he might present some big training challenges later on. The pup that doesn't point right away might need lots of help along the way, or he might need nothing more than time. You never know, you take what you get and do the best you can with it.

I'm lucky to have someone nearby with homers, so I can do a sort of rent-a-bird thing. Otherwise I buy barn pigeons knowing that it's a one use and done. Sometimes a pigeon pole works out well depending on the tenacity of the pup. Around here pen raised quail can be cheaper to buy than pigeons, so at times I've used them. I've not found that a little pup grabbing a quail makes for huge insurmountable problems down the road, although with some puppies it can open up a challenge or two.

Remember that this whole thing is a process, sometimes a loooong one. It takes as long as it takes. It can be a smooth ride or a bumpy one. Just enjoy it and appreciate it for what it is.

.

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Re: What is my next step??

Post by birddogger2 » Thu Sep 19, 2019 8:15 am

Feedjake-

Welcome to the world of bird dogs.

Couple of things: First...There are MANY ways to get from here to there with a bird dog. Most of them work well for the dog. The real key is finding a way that works and makes sense to you, the trainer.

Second, most decently bred bird dogs come out of the birth canal with more desire to find birds than most hunters will ever need. I have seen bunches of Brittanys over the years, and cannot recall one that didn't do just fine in the bird finding department. Most all of the Britts I have seen are ready and willing to do what you ask them to do. FWIW, as a breed, they are typically pretty soft of temperament, so do not need much in the way of negative reinforcement. A sharp word is often enough.

I do a LOT of yard work and obedience training early on, long before the pup is ever exposed to birds. I find it easier to do it that way. Kinda like installing the brakes and steering before putting the car on the road. Less wrecks that way. Most of my dogs do not even SEE or smell a bird until they are about 6 months old and pretty reliable on heel/whoa and recall.


But that is just me.

You are apparently doing a good job of socializing and bonding with your youngster. That is soooo important. If a dog likes you, it will want to stay with you, hunt for you and work with you. If it don't...it won't. It is more than OK to have fun with your dog. If it is fun for both of you...that works best.

I do heel/whoa drills after the manner of Paul Long(Training Pointing Dogs) using a Smith wonder lead, starting when the pup is about 16 weeks old. Mr. Long's book is not a bad read and not a bad way to train a dog. I recommend you get a copy and read it.

If you want, you can take your youngster on walks in the fields and hopefully it will get into some field larks and such. Chasing field larks is awesome fun for a young dog and it also teaches them that they can't catch birds.

Always remember, EVERY time you interact with your pup, you are teaching it something, whether you intend to or not. Sooooo -

Plan your work...and then go out and work your plan.

Take a few moments, think about what you want to accomplish in this training session, how your are going to actually do the training, what tools you will need, etc. and most importantly...when to quit.

Patience, persistence and insistence, coupled with a healthy sense of humor.

Have fun.

I do not know where you are located, but if you are anywhere near a woodcock migration route, that is quite possibly the best way I can think of to introduce a young dog to birds. A youngster in the midst of a woodcock flight will absolutely lose its mind with that many wild bird contacts and will learn so much about what it means to be a bird dog.

RayG

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Sharon
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Re: What is my next step??

Post by Sharon » Thu Sep 19, 2019 1:24 pm

Feedjake wrote:
Wed Sep 18, 2019 3:08 pm
Sharon
Thank you for your response. The dvd set may be just the ticket. I would also appreciate any input. Thanks
As birdogger 2 said, many ways work well. For a 4 month old pup, I plant pigeons, $2 each here. I let the dog chase. Once pup starts to hesitate, flash point, there is no more chasing. Check cord goes on and .............
" We are more than our gender, skin color, class, sexuality or age; we are unlimited potential, and can not be defined by one label." quote A. Bartlett

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Re: What is my next step??

Post by Feedjake » Thu Sep 19, 2019 5:22 pm

Shags, birddogger 2, and Sharon
Thanks for the input. I feel that my paralysis by analysis has actually been indirect patience and probably the best. I'm definitely continuing with obedience and really appreciate the advice of having a plan prior to leaving the house. I'm fortunate that I live in the country and have 30 acres. We obedience train in the yard and walk through the field. I am planning to plant pigeons next week or week after. He does come from good hunting stock and I need to trust that the instincts are in there. Thank you all for taking the time to give me guidance. Now what about introducing to the gun???? Thanks
"He is the prospector of the air, perpetually searching its strata for olfactory gold"
A.L.

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Re: What is my next step??

Post by birddogger2 » Fri Sep 20, 2019 10:54 am

If you are going to let the pup chase pigeons, the answer is simple Wait 'till the youngster is in full flat out chase of the flying bird and is a good distance away(greater than 30 yards, the farther the better ) and fire the gun...ONCE. The youngster should have already chased a good number of birds before you do the gun thing.

If you re not going to let the pup chase, I suggest you start with either a child's capgun, or a 22 with acorn crimps...putting the gun behind your and up and away from the pup. Again...fire the gun...ONCE. I would do some of this in the yard, or in the field when the dog is a good distance away(several hundred feet).

In either case, if there is anything more than an instantaneous loss of concentration at the sound of the shot... let it be and allow the dog to get even more bird crazy before you try again.

RayG

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Re: What is my next step??

Post by Featherfinder » Sun Sep 22, 2019 6:11 am

I think there are many good points already made. I do what birddogger suggested. Typically, there is always a bird chase segment in my early training.
The only thing I'd add is that should your pup stop or look back after the shot at all, even for a glimpse, you need to maintain your stride, keep your shoulders back, sachet along looking at the horizon in a direction away from your pup/the bird while saying NOTHING. In-other-words, when pup looks back he is looking for any sign or indication from you to feed off of. You cannot provide him with any minute response what-so-ever. Worse yet, do NOT provide verbal support like, "It's all right" or "Good boy", or "Let's go". Simply keep walking, look ahead, and enjoy the outing. As in, …"what bird, what gun?? Hmmm...must have missed that??"

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Re: What is my next step??

Post by birddogger2 » Mon Sep 23, 2019 7:27 am

Thanks Featherfinder -

I neglected to mention that, very important aspect of the training. Mostly silent, but proceed with confidence and self assurance. The dog will pick up on that and behave accordingly.

Our dogs look to us when they are uncertain or uneasy. Almost always, the best way to deal with that uncertainty and unease in the field, when it is not related to a safety issue, is to ignore it and focus on the search for game.

Obviously if the pup come up near a porky, coyote, snake or such, you do what you need to do and get the dog out of danger. There ARE things out there that even the boldest dog should learn to avoid.

RayG

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Re: What is my next step??

Post by Feedjake » Mon Sep 23, 2019 11:43 am

Thank you all for the great info
Feedjake
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Re: What is my next step??

Post by Featherfinder » Tue Sep 24, 2019 6:29 am

Well said Birddogger!
I guess a good comparison is: Imagine a young boy thinking about jumping in at the deep end of the pool for the first time. To encourage him, you stand beside him, tell him it will be fine and gently place your hand on his shoulder. Expect that lad to step backwards immediately while becoming more reticent than ever!
That's what some folk do (I made this mistake MANY times in the past) when introducing birds, guns, water, etc. Dogs might not speak English but they communicate VERY effectively. Your words/actions/body language can be construed not unlike that of the aforementioned young swimmer.
Be calm. Be patient. Let them figure it out for themselves and you rarely have to reinforce.

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Re: What is my next step??

Post by Feedjake » Wed Oct 09, 2019 5:22 pm

Hi all
So my brittany is 5 months now and we have enjoyed many walks through our backfield. He has energy and works in front of me pretty close. I'm expecting that he'll range farther as he progresses. He doesnt seem to have much prey drive yet. He doesnt chase the field sparrows, etc. He does flash point scents and dives in the thicker stuff. Ive been anxious to get him on birds. I finally acquired some pigeons and introduced him to a caged pigeon tonight. I put the pigeon in a cage in the yard and let him out as usual. It didnt take him long to notice and get the scent. He stood stock still 10 yards downwind of the cage. It seemed to be a visual and scent point???? I didnt say a word to him the whole time. He then approached the cage very apprehensively and seemed nervous. When the bird flapped, the dog jumped and and backed up. I let him face the cage and stare for a brief second then picked him up and praised him while carrying him back to house. Is this normal??? I was thinking he was gonna be more excited. I hope I didnt create a problem. Help please!
"He is the prospector of the air, perpetually searching its strata for olfactory gold"
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Re: What is my next step??

Post by bonasa » Wed Oct 09, 2019 5:44 pm

Feedjake,
You didn't take heed to any of the advice you were given. Nobody recommended to plant a visible , caged bird that appears to stand its ground in front of a predator. I would re-read the advice given to you and exercise it, or buy some books/DVD's or better yet get a day with a trainer. Perhaps join a NAVHDA association if it is available, rethinking the wheel and seeing if this or that works is not a method to start or finish a bird dog.

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Re: What is my next step??

Post by Feedjake » Wed Oct 09, 2019 6:28 pm

Bonasa
Thanks for the slap on the wrist. I needed that! I have thick skin, and head apparently, and appreciate the honesty. I've seen in videos what the first bird meet was done in a cage. It seemed to be a good idea. But I totally see what your saying about the visual and standing ground. I got anxious. Should I wait a few days before I plant any pigeons in the field?? Again, thanks
"He is the prospector of the air, perpetually searching its strata for olfactory gold"
A.L.

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Featherfinder
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Re: What is my next step??

Post by Featherfinder » Wed Oct 09, 2019 7:01 pm

Feedjake, too many folk worry about getting their birds back (saving $$). What actually happens is it ends up costing them $$$ and they typically end up with less dog!
As mentioned many times, it takes birds to make a bird dog but what they don't tell you is what type of bird species and presentation will best suit the specific pup/dog depending on it's age/previous experience/demeanor/etc.?
In your case, I would deploy a coturnix quail in medium or even short grass - no cage, no tether, no nothing. Coturnix are lousy fliers and if necessary trim the flight feathers. Let your pup investigate this bird. He/she may be apprehensive or aggressive but either way this type of presentation allows for your pup to be the "winner". If the bird tries to fly as your pup approaches, it will be a weak flight and a short distance. Your pup might shy off but if you normalize, and don't speak AT ALL, your pup will likely regain it's composure and try again. This can become an entertaining game which will inevitably end with your pup grabbing this quail.
Here's the thing. Whether you pup grabs this quail on the first intro, (allow 3 minutes on your phone/watch for the apprehensive pup) or the third presentation, do NOT allow this to continue once your pup grabs the quail! At that time, you will need to move up a notch. First things first.
Pigeons are NOT the right bird for a young pup, especially a somewhat reticent youngster. They are too strong of a flier, have too long a wingspan, etc. Keep in mind that an apprehensive pup tells you little about who he/she will blossom into as an adult, if it's nurtured appropriately.

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Re: What is my next step??

Post by Feedjake » Fri Oct 11, 2019 6:07 am

Thanks Featherfinder. I will be getting some quail later today.
Much appreciated
"He is the prospector of the air, perpetually searching its strata for olfactory gold"
A.L.

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Re: What is my next step??

Post by averageguy » Fri Oct 11, 2019 12:56 pm

Feedjake, The link to those Perfection Kennel DVDs Sharon posted at the top of the thread are your best next move. Buy and study them and you will have a much better plan of attack to developing your puppy. Best of Luck.

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Re: What is my next step??

Post by Feedjake » Sat Oct 12, 2019 10:38 am

Ok. So I placed a small coturnix quail for the pup last night. I let him ramble around the field until he found it on his own. He immediately snapped into point on scent. He held still until the quail flushed straight up. You were right, they are not good fliers. This spooked the dog for a second but he did regain composure and went back at it. He would trail and point but was apprehensive to rush the bird. Is this good? Seems like he is willing to point on scent rather than chase it down to source. This seems good. How often do I put out the quail? Thanks. Also, I havent ordered the dvds yet
"He is the prospector of the air, perpetually searching its strata for olfactory gold"
A.L.

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Re: What is my next step??

Post by averageguy » Sat Oct 12, 2019 11:23 am

I reiterate my advice posted above. Working your pup further on free planted poor flying quail will quickly develop bad habits that may prove very difficult to correct.

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Re: What is my next step??

Post by shags » Sat Oct 12, 2019 12:49 pm

I think you will find the answer if you reread Featherfinder's reply, and follow averageguy's advice about ordering the dvds ( or find another method and follow it). You need a plan, you need to understand that plan before you implement it. Winging it day to day will most likely lead you to grief later on.

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Re: What is my next step??

Post by cjhills » Sat Oct 12, 2019 1:48 pm

One thing to be aware of, the perfection kennels DVDs require a lot of birds and a helper.
You might be expecting a bit much from a very young pup. It is not unusual for a pup to be apprehensive on his first birds. I would put out a few more. If he seems to lack prey drive let him catch a couple. He might need a couple more months For the pointing to come out. He sounds like he will do well.
If you can get him around some wild birds they will teach him more than anything else. Generally I only use good flying birds, the dog and myself. I let nature take it's course with no restraint. I have a very large area to work in. Some dogs love the chase and can be hard to stop. Most
don't and the ones that do can be stopped. Don't be afraid to change your plan if you feel it is not working.
A four month old puppy can't do anything wrong in my view of things he just needs to be comfortable around birds and allowed to figure it out. I guess If he eats a bird that would be wrong. The only thing that can hurt him at this age is too much training. Time is your best friend. Let him learn how you want things done and you will have a dog that won't cheat and will stay trained for life........Cj

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Re: What is my next step??

Post by Feedjake » Sat Oct 12, 2019 7:33 pm

Thanks for the replies
"He is the prospector of the air, perpetually searching its strata for olfactory gold"
A.L.

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Re: What is my next step??

Post by averageguy » Sun Oct 13, 2019 5:47 am

FeedJake,

at the age and stage of your puppy I have followed the Perfect Start DVD training alone just fine. No assistant. Anyone who can watch their dog and push a button at the right time can do it.

Once your pup is holding a point, you launch and shoot the bird, also easily done alone, as I have done many times with multiple pups.

Way down the road when training for steadiness to WSF you will benefit an assistant who can flush and shoot the bird while you handle your dog. Which is the case with any program you might follow.

As for number of birds needed, by avoiding mistakes, I can have a well bred puppy with a good pointing instinct ready to hunt over in its first season in about a dozen training birds and exposure to wild birds. A hard case might need 2 dozen.

I use homing pigeons which are nice for the initial stages where you are not likely to be shooting the birds so I can reuse them. However, even if you used feral birds at $5 a piece that is $120. Which is a small investment to get a pup off on the right start.

I also expose my pups to wild birds and wild game in the wild places where they live several times a week. That is the 3rd leg in the stool of early development, i.e. OB, Training birds, Wild Birds.

I have purchased a lot of DVDs produced by a lot of folks. The Perfection Kennel are the most thorough and comprehensive for bird dog upland work, which is why they are so commonly recommended. They demonstrate the methods with multiple dogs with differing temperaments which is very helpful to beginners vs just showing one dog which magically performs perfectly on the video with no problems encountered ...

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Re: What is my next step??

Post by Featherfinder » Fri Oct 18, 2019 9:21 pm

Feedjake, I have seen launchers in the hands of someone with more experience than you just RUIN what once was a decent pup/dog. Furthermore, dogs know the difference between birds and birds-in-launchers/tethers/cages/etc. By-the-way, I have utmost respect for Mr. Hann's accomplishments in trials.
I am on record here to say that while I respect other approaches (and there are typically more-than-one), there is no room for launchers/tethers/cages/etc. in most any of my early training unless I see an issue developing.
If you think your pup is still not comfortable, put an elastic band around the cortunix wings/body to keep them from flapping. Once he is comfortable, use another one without the elastic.
As Shags mentioned, my earlier offering should be re-read by more than just you. I assure you. There is absolutely NO adverse affect if your pup (or any other young bird-shy pup) catches the coturnix once or twice…zero...nada....zilch...niet… On this, you have my word.
Feedjake, as I read your latest posting, I can discern that you are experiencing small improvements. THAT should tell you what you need to know AND you haven't spent one cent! That's awesome!! Be patient. Be silent. Repeat what I suggested. Give pup short segments of time in the coturnix arena - 2-5 minutes total per session until pup goes for that quail without reticence. Congrats!!
If you feel pup is ready to move on, PM me Sir.

**Pup/dogs only know the world we provide for them. Preplan, set up, have control over the lesson, deliver it with confidence. Cut pup loose (quietly) to learn without the typical impediments - verbal, whistle, mechanical, synthetic, alien or otherwise. Provide structured, progressive, positive, constructive, effective learning opportunities, not stuff you have to undo/resolve later on!
Oh...and I almost forgot! Your pup is not unusual. The old boyz used to say, "It can be a long way from pup to brag dog." Do what I suggested and reduce your pup's learning curve. My earliest "finished" dog was ~7 months old (GSP). I more consistently produce finished dogs around 11-12 months of age (depending on when I get them). Compare that with folk that un-train their dogs until they are 12-18 months old and then embark on a long arduous journey fixing whatever unpalatable lessons this dog learned along the way. I might be able to cut that down the learning curve a wee bit but our winters are brutal and I no longer try to train through them.

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Re: What is my next step??

Post by averageguy » Sat Oct 19, 2019 10:00 am

FeedJake,

Jon Hann's methods done correctly work wonderfully. His accomplishments are Huge and growing, as are the legions of amateurs such as myself successfully using his methods.

No one's methods done wrong, with poor timing and implementation, work well. All methods done wrong yield poor results. You can bank on that.

The unavoidable and obvious solution, regardless of method, is to use the methods and tools selected correctly vs incorrectly.

I advise you to not use any method in the wrong manner.

If you buy and follow the Perfection Kennel DVDs you will have a dog that thrills you. If you follow it or any other method in error you will not.

Yes a bird shy dog benefits from catching a few birds at a young age to build its confidence and bird drive. At the first indication the pup is keen for birds STOP allowing it to catch birds it has not properly pointed and allowed you to flush and shoot! Do not continue to use training birds in ways where you cannot control the outcome. Allowing puppies to crowd and catch training birds yields a lifetime of frustration when hunting wary wild birds with those same dogs down the road.

Past their first couple of introductory experiences, Bold puppies like we all hope to be working with, will be taken backwards by continuing to catch birds. That I equally assure you of.

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Re: What is my next step??

Post by Feedjake » Sun Oct 20, 2019 11:19 am

Well after a few coturnix quail encounters, he's really coming along with bird drive. He's no longer timid of the birds. I have come to really appreciate patience and have enjoyed watching him unravel the scent and situation. I appreciate everyones input, especially Featherfinder with the quail tip.
"He is the prospector of the air, perpetually searching its strata for olfactory gold"
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Re: What is my next step??

Post by Featherfinder » Mon Oct 21, 2019 6:02 am

My pleasure Feedjake!

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