VIDEO: The Art of Wingshooting Over Dogs

[Higgins]

Here is the first video in a new series I'll be producing. This series will concentrate on the handlers responsibilities when wingshooting over dogs using the Higgins Training Method. Most of my videos show the unique talents displayed by the dogs. This new series will show the hunting and training, but include more from the handlers perspective. I hope you enjoy it. If not, it's worth at least what you paid for it.

https://youtu.be/7OHfwS26TV0

Brad Higgins
http://HigginsGundogs.com

[polmaise]

I liked the Long line on the handler Brad.
But the other stuff is not unique in Bird dog training .It may be a first time view to some who have never done it .
The marketing is then subjective .
TBH. I personally like most of your clips you do and what you say in them.
I kinda get switched off when you add the Text foreword to them. (Sound familiar?) . lol

[Trekmoor]

I enjoyed your video Brad. It did show good work by both the dog and the handler but like Robert (Polmaise) said it is not unique. The only differences between what was done in the video and what British field trial standard dogs do was that we want the dog to do the flush and following the flush many of us want our dogs to sit.

Every pointing dog I have ever owned or trained would have done what was shown in your video …. it was not "unique." The vid did show and explain what a handler should be doing with a relatively inexperienced dog though …. he should be looking at it immediately following the flush and again after the shot has been fired whether or not the bird fell to the shot.

Most of the folk who have dogs that run - in to flush or to shot or to fall of game , have been too keen to shoot the bird and not keen enough on keeping the dog steady !

Thanks again Brad, I did enjoy the video and the explanation of what a handler should be doing.

Bill T.

[Featherfinder]

Trekmoor, I think Brad's offering and your response simply inure how "diverse" we do things here on this side of the pond. N0-one that hunts woodcock or grouse can dispute the logic, effectiveness, increased opportunities that a British-trained pointing gun-dog-that-flushes would be, especially if you prefer or often hunt alone. The haunts these species prefer often make it virtually impossible to be able to flush alone, never mind flush and still try to get a decent shot on target!
Sadly, it IS unusual here - for the most part - to have a reliably staunch pointing dog that will also flush and then stop to await a retrieve command. Heck, it's rare to get a pointing dog that holds - even if it doesn't flush - long enough to be "sent" to retrieve. And then you have to listen to, "Yeah, I prefer my dog breaks when I flush/shoot. That way he can get on the downed birded better." The fact is, they either don't know how or don't care to invest in finishing the job. Labs are NOT the only breed that can mark well. I have a very blue-blooded pointer for my personal wild bird hunting and she now CHOOSES to remain steady when I flush. (No, my dogs do not flush for me either although my next dogs will, if the Big Guy awards me the time.) She stands tall and marks VERY well until sent on.
I've seen dogs that break on the flush or shot that have to dart around trees, duck logs, veer around thorny shrubs, then get out 50 yards past the downed bird and now have NO IDEA where it is. I still argue, it is not advantageous but I digress.
Mr. Higgins' offering is anything BUT the norm over here Trekmoor, sadly.

[Featherfinder]

I commend Mr. Higgins for sharing the philosophy of a process that is not the norm around here. Nor do we typically communicate the intent/handling protocols for owner/handlers that are, in-all-fairness, often unaware of what a true brag dog is capable of. In another aspects, some of us assume others know what we know regarding handling a finished dog or the savvy dynamics that surround handling said dog on a wild bird find.
Good stuff Brad. Please keep them coming!

[Trekmoor]

I think that where Brad and I (and many other British trainers) maybe part company, is on the subject of "reward." I let my pups hunt, flush and chase every bird they can find until the point part of things is taught to the pups by the birds. To my pups just finding a bird is a reward in itself. I work pups only on wild birds, preferably partridge (English) or red grouse but I do use pheasants too when they are present.

I continue to hunt the pups and very gradually teach and encourage steadiness to flush, my dogs sit following the flush. Then I add the shot to the flush but before I do that I very thoroughly teach the pups that they must stop and sit if they hear a shot from close by as they hunt or move around. When the shot is added following a flush my pups already know they should be sitting, they have seen a flush and heard a shot …. that is two commands a pup has had to stop/sit and be steady.

I then add onto this a stop/sit to "fall." The object that falls is not a bird to begin with , it is a training dummy, or a ball or even a frisbee. I insist the pups stop dead in mid hunt whenever they see an object in the air fall to the ground. So.… now the pup "knows" three commands to sit that don't even need me to give vocal or visual or whistled commands. All of those three cues mean stop/sit to my pups.

I then put it all together and actually shoot a bird for the pup. So far not even one pup has ran-in if it has been taught in this way. I very often leave the pup in the sit position then walk out to the shot bird myself in the early stages of training. I then pick up the bird , which serves two purposes. It "claims" the bird as being mine and it leaves my scent on the bird which is what the pup would expect from a training dummy..... the bird is then treated by the pup as a retrieve and not something to be played with.

So … I very seldom reward a pup with a retrieve following a flush. My pups and my adult dogs are regularly hunted without me even carrying a gun. The point itself is the reward for my dogs. I think Brad and most other Americans differ from me in this … they make the retrieve the reward ….but , for the most part, they haven't paid enough attention to steadiness to shot and fall so run-ins result ???

Speaking both for myself and for many other British trainers of pointing dogs I can assure you that dogs become plenty keen on hunting and pointing even if no birds are shot for them at all. If you doubt this remember that no birds are shot over the dogs in our pointer/setter trials. The "reward" is the point, not the retrieve. The retrieve is a whole different ball game.

So there ! Sorry to have been so dogmatic ! :roll:

Bill T.

[Featherfinder]

Not speaking for Brad, but I personally go through MANY birds allowing my pointing dogs to chase. They often tell you when they are ready for the next step by cat-walking or pointing of their own volition but not before they have exhausted their failed efforts at trying to catch a bird. As such, I might differ with you as to what the weight value of a point is versus a retrieve (bird in mouth). I have never seen a pointing dog "chase" a bird with the intent to point it. I see all dogs here chase with the intent to catch that bird...in their mouth. That would appear to be the dog's priority anyway.
So for me, I want the dog to try everything it possibly can to catch said bird. I wish we had the number of wild birds locally but I do not so I use pigeons in a certain way simply because they act almost like wild birds and do not land a short distance away luring the dog to extend the chase. It also allows me to know where the birds are so as to be pro-active/ready rather than not knowing when/where/if we will locate a wild find. (Obviously, that will come to fruition....later.) In fact, I watch intently as my young dogs rip across the field hoping to catch the escapees, knowing they won't be rewarded for doing so.
Subsequently, I move towards supporting what I believe to be the dog's ultimate goal - a bird in mouth but only when they follow my rules.
We do not even remotely ask our dogs to "sit" throughout active upland hunting so, "sit" is not typically something we aspire to have while working.
Just how it is on this side, but I understand your approach completely and how it would serve very well.

[mask]

Thanks Brad. This is a good video for beginners and a few who think they know a lot as well. A refresher coarse never hurts dogs or people. Keep up the good work.