Hunting "out front" looping?

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bamanicksbd
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Hunting "out front" looping?

Post by bamanicksbd » Sat Apr 06, 2019 5:42 pm

I understand wanting a dog to hunt "out front" and for the most part my 6 mo old setter does stay out front. Especially if I pay attention and start out into the wind. The issue that Im noticing is that he wants to get out to a out 100 to 150 yds or so depending on cover then he wants to loop back to me then take off again. Example we start down a hedge row and he will go along the outside till out of sight or thereabouts then he will either get in the hedgerow or on other side and loop back to me then take off again. Not really a problem with hunting behind me and he handles pretty well and turns with me. My question is how big an issue is the looping back. How much would that be penalized in field trials? Next part how do I straighten him out and just keep him going forward or what is the alternative? Ive never really been big on a pointing dog quartering but maybe I need to adjust my thinking.

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Re: Hunting

Post by birddogger2 » Sun Apr 07, 2019 7:38 am

I truly think the answer to your question is: "IT DEPENDS".

If the dog is hunting up one side, almost out of sight, crossing over, hunting down the other side(on the right side of the wind, hopefully) and then turning in front of you to make another loop... that(IMO) is a fairly ideal pattern for a dog that is working for a walking handler in a stake.

That same pattern would not be an ideal pattern if the game you were playing was American Field horseback shooting dog. The emphasis on a forward hunting pattern is very definite in that type of stake.

It might be a very nice pattern for a horseback AKC Gundog stake, especially if the dog did not come all the way back to you and cross right in front of you, but rather make that crossing at 50-100 yards.

The bottom line for me would be if the dog was hunting hard, every step of the way and was hunting in places where a bird would likely be, instead of just running to hear the wind under its ears.

A bird dog that "wants" to stay with you and include you in the hunt... is a treasure. As they get older, stronger and bolder, the dog will likely stretch out when it can, but also will likely pull it in when it needs to stay in contact, because of the terrain.

I think, if you want to compete in tests or trials... it is up to you to pick the venue that is most likely to reward your dog for doing what it does well.

RayG

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Re: Hunting

Post by shags » Sun Apr 07, 2019 10:42 am

I had a dog that did that and it drove me crazy.

What was advised to me was to charge the dog with my horse or atv; this doesn't help much because by the time you're close enough to impress the dog, he's already part way back to you.

I tried watching really close and hollering or using a whistle to move him forward the instant I thought he was turning back; but being young, it seemed like he thought "what are you yelling [whistling] about? I better come see".

What to do, what to do. I did the only other thing I could think of...I ignored him when he looped back, If eye rolling and taking a deep breath can be called ignoring. No talking, no commands, no nothing except moving on down the line.

And my dog just outgrew it. I remember the day we were going up the treeline and he kept going instead of looping. It was like a miracle :D

If this particular young dog had been better at holding point and not diving in on our training birds, I would have put out a bird maybe every 50 yards or so along that line just to get it into his head that forward means birds. Thinking back, I can't remember if I tried singing to him as he moved forward, in order for him to know where I was. But I know keeping in touch this way with my subsequent dogs keeps them from feeling the need to come find me.

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Re: Hunting "out front" looping?

Post by bamanicksbd » Sun Apr 07, 2019 7:13 pm

I plan on running him in walking type field
Trials. No horseback or atv. He is hunting hard and does seem to have pretty good natural instincts about “birdy” type places. He’s young and I don’t want to harp on him much as long as he is hunting hard but at the same time I don’t want to let it develop into a bad habit either. I haven’t tried singing to him. I’d be afraid he would run out of hearing just to get away from my singing.


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Re: Hunting

Post by shags » Mon Apr 08, 2019 4:59 am

Ha! Try an occasional "Yuuuuuuuuup, bud" or something like that. Don't use his name because that tends to make youngsters come back to check in.

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Re: Hunting

Post by ON Honker Hunter » Mon Apr 08, 2019 5:32 am

Personally speaking, a dog that loops back all the time is definitely a "treasure" for the way I prefer to hunt. The game I'm after is primarily pheasants, Huns, and sharptails. The former two will move a lot, sharpies not so much. But sharpies after the first week or so of season won't hold at all anyway, except the occasional loner. The last two seasons have been devastating for wild chicks of any brand so its been tough finding pheasants or Huns that will hold. It's been run and gun no matter if I'm hunting the flushing dogs or the pointers. Birds are doubling back on them fairly frequently too and a looping dog will pick them up. Also I hunt mostly broken ground with good cover. When the dogs finally do find a bird, I'm usually not far away and that works best for these conditions. I'm in good shape for 66+ and I can keep up with a moving dog well enough ... but never have enjoyed running after them. Loved horses when I had them (I even packed for the government for a while) but the sun has set on those good times unfortunately. And I have NO desire to chase birds and dogs while sitting on a noisy four-wheeler! Ugh! Most ranchers won't allow it anyway. Also have no desire to play games with my dogs at a noisy crowded field trial venue. I hunt alone with them in the wild expanses. Nothing but me and them and God. Consequently we're all good friends now. Really don't need a lot of others along to contaminate that relationship.

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Re: Hunting

Post by Featherfinder » Mon Apr 08, 2019 6:16 am

Even though you're in a walking trial, a dog that looped to the point of being very close to the handler would not fair well with me as a judge. The reason predominantly is that the dog is displaying a dependency rather than co-operation. There is a line between these and it's not that fine either. If you want an example, go to a cover trial. There you will see the successful dogs handling beyond what the typical gun dog owner would appreciate BUT the dogs do in fact handle in very dense cover (most often out-of-sight) and yet are completely in contact with their owner/handler. Beyond that, they are typically run on wild birds so excessive hacking whistling is counter-productive. This conveys a dog's true ability to function in tandem with you while staying to the front.
Keeping a looping dog staying to the front is important whether you trial or not. It's hard to judge what you can't see or what happened beside/behind you especially in dense cover.
There are many options available but the basic concept remains the same for the most part. A dog that is looping has not be rewarded for staying to the front. So....provide incentives for doing so in terms of planted hard-flying birds, etc. Running "dry" will cause a dog to get bored and get distracted from the intended task. I have started out in open fields that afforded a series of well-spaced perpendicular hedge-rows ahead of me. A single bird was planted on each hedge-row. It doesn't take long for a dog to streak across those fields to scour the hedge-row out front. Repeat, repeat, repeat.
*Be careful what you wish for in this exercise! All things in moderation...

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Re: Hunting

Post by ON Honker Hunter » Mon Apr 08, 2019 8:46 am

"Keeping a looping dog staying to the front is important whether you trial or not. It's hard to judge what you can't see or what happened beside/behind you especially in dense cover."

I am trying to figure out why/how a looping dog would be a disadvantage in the above situation. A looping dog would be more likely to know where the shooter is rather than having to whistle or "hack" at it for guidance. They don't wear a GPS receiver to view your position. Actually, I find a close working flushing dog to be more productive in heavy cover. Or I'll whistle in the Fr Britt and make her work close or keep her next to me while one of the Labs works. She doesn't like to be out of sight (a clingly little thing) so it's usually not a problem. But of course, I'm sort of an upland bird dog outlaw in that I don't hunt with electronic beeper collars (or any electronics at all). Again, I prefer to keep the environment clean of artificial influences when I'm "at home" with my Maker in the wild. The objective for me is to escape our 21st century technological "reality" when I pick up a gun and head to the field. It's why I don't have horses any more. Technology hasn't made a huge impact on how they are used over the last two centuries and I could certainly afford to keep them now, but the wilderness areas of Montana are no longer available to me. After the life I lived with my horses, playing in a local arena simply has no attraction whatsoever. Occasionally for Father's Day my daughter will rent horses so I can dust off my custom roper and ride up and down a country road for a while. She doesn't understand why it makes me tear up.

Anyway, for someone who really wants to hunt a dog and enjoy watching it work without generous optical assistance, a dog that keeps working around the shooter would not seem to me to be a bad thing. It's generally a slower paced situation and there's nothing wrong with that in my book. I rather enjoy taking things in while I'm hunting rather than running pell-mell after dogs all day long. Sadly, I doubt it will last. My pups always start out that way (because pups are by nature usually more clingy) but they quickly figure out that they need to stay ahead or they will get left behind. Once they are matured about the only time they fall behind is for a good reason ... a bird has slipped back on us. Or often there's several birds been running around in the area and I wasn't paying attention and got ahead of them while they were birdy.

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Re: Hunting

Post by Featherfinder » Tue Apr 09, 2019 4:52 am

ON Honker, I hunt silent for the most part because wild birds won't tolerate the hacking or whistle. I "cut my teeth" training without technology. I now wish I had been quicker on the uptake.
"Looping" is not a good thing when hunting a pointing breed. The dog is wasting energy running over it's own tracks and is less likely to find birds in an area it already hunted. You can't loop without overlapping cover - at least not if your pointing dog has an entry level nose. Unlike flushers, pointing dogs are not supposed to pattern either. It significantly reduces their effectiveness for the aforementioned reason, along with others. If you're going to pattern a pointing breed, you would be better off with a flusher.
The further ANY breed is from the human counterpart, the more likely it is to have success contacting wild birds, within reason. What is "reasonable"? The answer bounces back to your dog's capability, what species you are hunting, in what habitat, your goals, early season vs late season, your shooting skills, etc. etc. A smart/capable/well-trained pointing breed can adjust to ALL of these situations rather than trying to get the species to conform to the pointing dog's patterned/loopy bad habits.
What I was alluding to re cover trials is that it conveys how capable decent pointing dogs are in terms of staying in contact with the handler in dense cover while producing finds on grouse (typically) which are FLUSHED BY THE HANDLER as well as witnessed by a judge!
Perhaps if I threw some fictitious numbers out there I would be more clear? Let's say we are in moderate cover - central mid-west. Your dog is hunting out front at a conservative150 yards or so. Looping back to me within 50 or so yards is a waste of at least 100 yards - 50 too far back to me which means at least another 50+++ back out to where he should have applied himself. Trust me, that dog knows exactly where you are at that 150+ yards. Aaah….but if he is at effective range for a pointing breed and bumps his finds, admittedly he is too far to shoot at said bird but that addresses a separate problem, doesn't it?
In summary, the looper runs 2-3 times the distance (overlapping) for less effective coverage. Not a big deal for some, depending on where they hunt, how many bird dogs they own, how many hunters tag along, how long they run each dog, what their goals are.....
I run one dog at a time when hunting even if 4 total are in the truck, but that's for another topic.
Last edited by Featherfinder on Tue Apr 09, 2019 6:40 am, edited 6 times in total.

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Re: Hunting

Post by shags » Tue Apr 09, 2019 5:47 am

FF, great post. You nailed it.

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Re: Hunting

Post by polmaise » Tue Apr 09, 2019 5:23 pm

If the dog covers the ground irrespective of handler ,would that be "self employed " in those games across the water?. If the dog covered/quested a definitive area of ground irrespective of cover would that be considered loopy your side of the pond?. If the dog hunted a hedgeline and kept going forward with its nose on the deck ,I would not be happy.!.

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Re: Hunting

Post by Sharon » Tue Apr 09, 2019 5:59 pm

polmaise wrote:
Tue Apr 09, 2019 5:23 pm
If the dog covers the ground irrespective of handler ,would that be "self employed " in those games across the water?. quote P

Depends to the degree on which the dog works irrespective of the handler. You don't want a boot licker, you want an independent dog, but you don't want the dog ignoring you and going left when your turning right around the bend in the field. Sharon



If the dog covered/quested a definitive area of ground irrespective of cover would that be considered loopy your side of the pond? quote P

No. Reread Featherfinder's post.
for me looping is coming back and covering the same ground. Sharon


If the dog hunted a hedgeline and kept going forward with its nose on the deck ,I would not be happy.!. quote

We wouldn't be happy either. We want the dog's head up and using the wind. "Nose on the deck" sounds like adog I wouldn't be happy with. :)... Sharon
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Re: Hunting

Post by polmaise » Tue Apr 09, 2019 6:56 pm

Yea , but in Training ?.......We all know you you got one that done it. Lol

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Re: Hunting

Post by Featherfinder » Tue Apr 09, 2019 8:32 pm

Poly...my goodness, it's back to grammer skool where we gonna learn you gooder!
Sharon has had more than one exceptional dog so I'd respect that she has literally "been there and done it", and not just once.
There is no doubt we do things differently here and in my opinion not all aspects are unequivocally better. That said, "looping" by definition is not something desirable on either side of the pond.
When in Scotland, a lady was hospitable enough to work a brace of trial pointers for me on the moors. Those dogs were delightful but never did I see either of them loop...not even once. They did have more of a pattern-like application than I an used to BUT it seemed more the norm there both in watching these dogs, setters in Italy and videos of European trials. There, they also tend to run trials in very compact arenas, comparitively speaking.
Am I wrong?

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Re: Hunting

Post by shags » Wed Apr 10, 2019 4:40 am

Hey Miss Sharon, that's what you get when you mention beagles on a birddog forum :D

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Re: Hunting

Post by ON Honker Hunter » Wed Apr 10, 2019 7:00 am

shags wrote:
Wed Apr 10, 2019 4:40 am
Hey Miss Sharon, that's what you get when you mention beagles on a birddog forum :D
Well, it is a GUN dog forum. Presumably that would include everything from coon hounds to Labradors to spitzs but it seems the pointing dog crowd thinks they have sole possession of the term. And by the way, birddog isn't a word. :)

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Re: Hunting

Post by shags » Wed Apr 10, 2019 8:33 am

Birddog might not be in your vocabulary, but it's in mine :D

And it's more than a word, it's a life style :D

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Re: Hunting

Post by JONOV » Wed Apr 10, 2019 9:43 am

birddogger2 wrote:
Sun Apr 07, 2019 7:38 am
I truly think the answer to your question is: "IT DEPENDS".

If the dog is hunting up one side, almost out of sight, crossing over, hunting down the other side(on the right side of the wind, hopefully) and then turning in front of you to make another loop... that(IMO) is a fairly ideal pattern for a dog that is working for a walking handler in a stake.

That same pattern would not be an ideal pattern if the game you were playing was American Field horseback shooting dog. The emphasis on a forward hunting pattern is very definite in that type of stake.

It might be a very nice pattern for a horseback AKC Gundog stake, especially if the dog did not come all the way back to you and cross right in front of you, but rather make that crossing at 50-100 yards.

The bottom line for me would be if the dog was hunting hard, every step of the way and was hunting in places where a bird would likely be, instead of just running to hear the wind under its ears.

A bird dog that "wants" to stay with you and include you in the hunt... is a treasure. As they get older, stronger and bolder, the dog will likely stretch out when it can, but also will likely pull it in when it needs to stay in contact, because of the terrain.

I think, if you want to compete in tests or trials... it is up to you to pick the venue that is most likely to reward your dog for doing what it does well.

RayG
Bingo.

As Ray said, the dog may well outgrow it.

But in all honesty I'd worry more about the dog producing than anything else. A dog that finds more birds with decent manners and style may not be guaranteed to win, but its a lot more likely put you in the winners circle than a dog that doesn't but has a better search pattern.

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Re: Hunting

Post by shags » Wed Apr 10, 2019 10:03 am

^^^
I think that depends on the format. Counting bird contacts could lead to higher scores in something like shoot to retrieve trials, but a poor pattern with more bird contacts probably won't get more credit in AF or AKC trials.

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Re: Hunting

Post by DonF » Wed Apr 10, 2019 6:13 pm

In broke dog trials it's called yo yoing and frond on. It hunting, so what? Why do you really care? I sure don't! So it yo yo's a bit while hunting big deal. Buddy of mine years ago had a setter that was ok, not much better than that. Been a lot of time's I'd come along behind him and pick up a bird his dog missed. In fact it happens after the dog already goes through a area, birds could move in. I like to get out and watch my dog that's all. Sometime's there's lot's of cover the dog miss's, it come's back and get it the next time, what's the problem? Field trialing has little to do with wild bird hunting. In fact most trials don't run on wild birds. Field trialing is about training to some thought up standard and really good dog work can get you picked up! Hunting has little to do with field trialing, its' about watching a dog work and being able to handle the wild bird! if your goal is to field trial, by all mean's train your dog to that standard. Ya don't and more often than not your gonna take the walk of shame! If you hunting and know that much about wild birds, you probably don't really need the dog. But if you do, let the dog do it's job and don't second guess it! Yo yoing happen's in the hunting field, ya don't like it, don't watch. You'll find in time it will slow down a good deal. Some people have such big running dog's, yo yoing is a blessing, get to see your dog now and then!
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Re: Hunting "out front" looping?

Post by bamanicksbd » Wed Apr 10, 2019 7:17 pm

I plan on trying to both do walking field trials and hunt. Sadly if it was just hunting I’d need to do something else. I’m trying hard to reestablish quail habitat and join others in doing so but wild quail bird populations in our area are sad. If I’m going to get to enjoy watching a bird dog work then it’s either field trials or paid preserve which I can’t afford. My main concern was that if the looping back was a bad thing I didn’t want to be encouraging it by not correcting it.

I know there are big differences and I dealt with that some years ago when I went to my first nstra trial. My dog basically ignored the fairly short cropped open field and took off for the nearest hedgerow and got on the downwind side and took off. The other guys dog ran back and forth more chasing 4 wheeler tracks than hunting birds in an area that no wild quail would ever hang out lest a hawk have an early lunch. Then when my dog pointed on the hedge row I was told “oh that’s out of bounds over there. Probably some unfounded birds from earlier ran in there for cover”. heck I didn’t even finish I just went on down the hedge row with my dog and back round to the Jeep and went home. To say I was disappointed would be an understatement. So maybe what I want just isnt gonna happen any more but I’m gonna give it one more try.


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Re: Hunting

Post by Featherfinder » Wed Apr 10, 2019 7:34 pm

Bama, my experience with NSTRA wasn't that much different. In my first and ONLY NSTRA event, I ran a Britt I trained which was braced with a pointer. The handler of the pointer walked around the course "poking" for birds. When he fund one, he called his dog back and worked the find.The dog I ran had three nice finds/retrieves and backed one of the pointer's finds. I got second. My bracemate won 1st. ?!? I never went back.
To be fair, it was probably more of a reflection of the governing body/judges than NSTRA.
Hunting a typical NSTRA field many would consider restrictive. So, if you are resolving a looping issue, it might be the wrong venue to run in because you might be rewarding your dog with birds for doing so.

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Re: Hunting

Post by shags » Wed Apr 10, 2019 7:35 pm

Why don't you try some akc or US Complete trials? US Complete is walking, and you can walk in any akc trial or stake. New akc rules allow walking handlers to be braced together.

Both formats would reward a productive run along a line like that.

Good luck ,I hope you find something you can enjoy.

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Re: Hunting

Post by JONOV » Thu Apr 11, 2019 8:34 am

shags wrote:
Wed Apr 10, 2019 10:03 am
^^^
I think that depends on the format. Counting bird contacts could lead to higher scores in something like shoot to retrieve trials, but a poor pattern with more bird contacts probably won't get more credit in AF or AKC trials.
I understand that AKC and AF trials are a bit like the "Miss America" package where they're looking at the whole package, but...Is anyone going to bet against finds? I fully understand that if your dog has 5 finds and your bracemate has 3 its no sure thing. But its not as if its a bad thing. And I'm not sure that what he describes is inherently a bad thing even in that competition venue especially for a puppy. And remember, USCSDA is not Ames.

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