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STEADY TO RELEASE
Posted: Mon Mar 18, 2019 1:38 pm
by JEFFP5217
So I just took my 2 year old GSP out for his 3rd real hunt, and he did incredible! I have done a lot with him in the off season with pigeons and pointing birds in launchers. My question and only problem I had was him working steady to release. He points phenomenally and won't move until I go to pass him. When I walk up to flush the bird he wants to jump in too and I'd like to avoid any accidents with him jumping while someone s shooting. So my question is what are your recommendations for training steady to release. I have built a table for training and was just curious if anyone had any pointers! Thanks, Jeff from Maryland
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Re: STEADY TO RELEASE
Posted: Mon Mar 18, 2019 3:35 pm
by polmaise
Without seeing what is going on.
Stealing a point from a young dog in training ,Often induces an early flush rather than a sustained point.
Re: STEADY TO RELEASE
Posted: Mon Mar 18, 2019 4:59 pm
by shags
First thing you have to do is quit going past your dog when you go to flush. As you walk up past him, it puts him into a help to flush mode. IDK why, just something dogs do. Instead, come in for the flush at more a 90* angle to the dog. That way, you're kind of blocking him, and also getting into his head that it's your bird, and he doesn't get to help flush.
Also you must go back to training. Put a cc on him, and set him up on some pigeons. You can have a helper hold the cc, or you can put some knots in it and step on it; when the dog goes, yank him back and stand him up right back where he stopped in the first place. When he's steady to wing, get a helper and shoot some pigeons. Make him stand through shot ( cc again) until you send him.
Next season, be ready to forfeit some shots in order to make the dog be steady. Some outings are going to be training sessions until you're sure of the dog. If he messes up, you're going to have to correct him. Pain in the neck, but worth it to have the dog behave the way you want for the rest of his life.
Re: STEADY TO RELEASE
Posted: Mon Mar 18, 2019 5:05 pm
by polmaise
Never used pigeons, either planted or in launchers for Pointing dogs, used them often for Flushing dogs though, great tools for that I have found.
Re: STEADY TO RELEASE
Posted: Mon Mar 18, 2019 5:13 pm
by SwitchGrassWPG
shags wrote: ↑Mon Mar 18, 2019 4:59 pm
First thing you have to do is quit going past your dog when you go to flush. As you walk up past him, it puts him into a help to flush mode. IDK why, just something dogs do. Instead, come in for the flush at more a 90* angle to the dog. That way, you're kind of blocking him, and also getting into his head that it's your bird, and he doesn't get to help flush.
Also you must go back to training. Put a cc on him, and set him up on some pigeons. You can have a helper hold the cc, or you can put some knots in it and step on it; when the dog goes, yank him back and stand him up right back where he stopped in the first place. When he's steady to wing, get a helper and shoot some pigeons. Make him stand through shot ( cc again) until you send him.
Next season, be ready to forfeit some shots in order to make the dog be steady. Some outings are going to be training sessions until you're sure of the dog. If he messes up, you're going to have to correct him. Pain in the neck, but worth it to have the dog behave the way you want for the rest of his life.
Agreed. Going along side your dog to flush the bird creates competition.
Re: STEADY TO RELEASE
Posted: Mon Mar 18, 2019 5:21 pm
by Sharon
shags wrote: ↑Mon Mar 18, 2019 4:59 pm
First thing you have to do is quit going past your dog when you go to flush. As you walk up past him, it puts him into a help to flush mode. IDK why, just something dogs do. Instead, come in for the flush at more a 90* angle to the dog. That way, you're kind of blocking him, and also getting into his head that it's your bird, and he doesn't get to help flush.
Also you must go back to training. Put a cc on him, and set him up on some pigeons. You can have a helper hold the cc, or you can put some knots in it and step on it; when the dog goes, yank him back and stand him up right back where he stopped in the first place. When he's steady to wing, get a helper and shoot some pigeons. Make him stand through shot ( cc again) until you send him.
Next season, be ready to forfeit some shots in order to make the dog be steady. Some outings are going to be training sessions until you're sure of the dog. If he messes up, you're going to have to correct him. Pain in the neck, but worth it to have the dog behave the way you want for the rest of his life.
So well said!
Re: STEADY TO RELEASE
Posted: Mon Mar 18, 2019 8:36 pm
by Higgins
Hello Jeff. I do my training a little differently. I find that the best way to encourage steadiness to the flush, shot and fall, is to allow the dogs to flush the birds, but only on my verbal cue. I call it my "flush/stop" cue. I expect an aggressive flush and immediate stop to that flush. Basically, I say "alright" (my verbal flush/stop cue) and the dogs give it one shot, no chasing. If the bird runs or does not flush, the dogs are expected to set up again and wait for my "alright" cue again. Here is a video showing one of my black pointers demonstrating the "flush/stop. Be sure to read the text that's there with the video at Youtube as well. It's helpful in understanding what's going on.
https://youtu.be/PfWSJ4TYt6o
The collar the dog is wearing is a GPS collar. No e-collars or "whoa" commands are used. Who would have thought that the best way to teach a dog to be steady would be to let him flush birds (but only on my cue).
Brad Higgins
www.HigginsGundogs.com
Re: STEADY TO RELEASE
Posted: Tue Mar 19, 2019 6:03 am
by JEFFP5217
Thank you all for the tips they are greatly appreciated!
Re: STEADY TO RELEASE
Posted: Tue Mar 19, 2019 6:16 am
by shags
Higgins wrote: ↑Mon Mar 18, 2019 8:36 pm
Hello Jeff. I do my training a little differently. I find that the best way to encourage steadiness to the flush, shot and fall, is to allow the dogs to flush the birds, but only on my verbal cue. I call it my "flush/stop" cue. I expect an aggressive flush and immediate stop to that flush. Basically, I say "alright" (my verbal flush/stop cue) and the dogs give it one shot, no chasing. If the bird runs or does not flush, the dogs are expected to set up again and wait for my "alright" cue again. Here is a video showing one of my black pointers demonstrating the "flush/stop. Be sure to read the text that's there with the video at Youtube as well. It's helpful in understanding what's going on.
https://youtu.be/PfWSJ4TYt6o
The collar the dog is wearing is a GPS collar. No e-collars or "whoa" commands are used. Who would have thought that the best way to teach a dog to be steady would be to let him flush birds (but only on my cue).
Brad Higgins
www.HigginsGundogs.com
Yeah but, how do you train for the stop after flush?
I really liked that sliding stop, awesome!
Re: STEADY TO RELEASE
Posted: Tue Mar 19, 2019 6:39 am
by JEFFP5217
Higgins wrote: ↑Mon Mar 18, 2019 8:36 pm
Hello Jeff. I do my training a little differently. I find that the best way to encourage steadiness to the flush, shot and fall, is to allow the dogs to flush the birds, but only on my verbal cue. I call it my "flush/stop" cue. I expect an aggressive flush and immediate stop to that flush. Basically, I say "alright" (my verbal flush/stop cue) and the dogs give it one shot, no chasing. If the bird runs or does not flush, the dogs are expected to set up again and wait for my "alright" cue again. Here is a video showing one of my black pointers demonstrating the "flush/stop. Be sure to read the text that's there with the video at Youtube as well. It's helpful in understanding what's going on.
https://youtu.be/PfWSJ4TYt6o
The collar the dog is wearing is a GPS collar. No e-collars or "whoa" commands are used. Who would have thought that the best way to teach a dog to be steady would be to let him flush birds (but only on my cue).
Brad Higgins
www.HigginsGundogs.com
This is very cool, how do you teach/ incorporate them to freeze in your training? Are there more links in your bio?
Re: STEADY TO RELEASE
Posted: Tue Mar 19, 2019 7:16 am
by Trekmoor
JEFFP5217 wrote: ↑Tue Mar 19, 2019 6:39 am
This is very cool, how do you teach/ incorporate them to freeze in your training? Are there more links in your bio?
Hi Jeff, there isn't really any "teach" involved in having a dog do as that dog did. Probably every pointing dog in Britain does exactly the same thing and for the same reason.
Brad Higgins took a leaf out of the way things are done on this side of the pond and taught/encouraged the dogs to do the flushing instead of the handler leaving the dog on point and then doing the flushing himself. When dogs are trained to make the flush they quite often move in on the bird in a series of little rushes. Taken to extremes this is a form of "stickiness" and it is downmarked in our trials.
In Britain the handlers generally do not move round to the far side of the bird as the handler in the film clip did. We cannot usually see the bird so we would not know for sure how far round to walk ! We just move quietly in to the side of the pointing dog then command the flush . The dog should then move in and flush but if the dog checks it's own forward movement as the dog in the clip did then we again walk forward to the dogs side (usually) before repeating the flush command.
The steadiness to flush and to shot and fall of game is done in separate little stages. It is different to training a hot and hard going spaniel to be steady to flush in only one respect. A pointing dog handler is fully expecting the flush and is ready to correct any attempt made by the dog to chase or to run-in. It is actually easier to train steadiness to a pointing dog than it is to train it to a spaniel !
Bill T.
Re: STEADY TO RELEASE
Posted: Tue Mar 19, 2019 7:57 am
by cjhills
I have always thought I would like my dogs to do that. As Trekmor said it should be the same as training a spaniel to stop to flush. It seems like it would give me a much better chance for a shot in the woods or brush. One problem I could see in our trials and tests is poor flying quail. The dog could easily catch them.....Cj
Re: STEADY TO RELEASE
Posted: Tue Mar 19, 2019 8:58 am
by Higgins
I'll answer some of the questions.
Shags: "Yeah but, how do you train for the stop after flush?"
In my training I don't use any stop or steady commands. The dogs learn that if they chase, they don't get the bird. But if they are steady, they get to retrieve on my cue. Pretty soon, you couldn't MAKE them chase. They'll choose to be steady.
jeffp5217: "This is very cool, how do you teach/ incorporate them to freeze in your training? "
I don't teach them to freeze or point. They are born knowing these things. It's all part of a dogs natural stalking ability. I use good birds that are free and will flush or run when pressured. From there, I let the birds train the dogs. If the dogs move at the wrong time or get pushy, they loose (no bird). In early training, I use a checkcord so I can show the dogs how it works. The dogs learn that the only successful strategy must include me, the shooter.
Trekmoor is right. Allowing the dogs to flush the birds is how it's done in most countries. I've always been curious why it became the norm for the shooters to flush the birds here. The dogs are so much better at it.
I have different ideas as to why, on occasion, they don't do a full flush on cue and have to be asked more than once. We'll save that discussion for another time.
Can you believe this. Now we're discussing how to make a dog LESS steady.
Re: STEADY TO RELEASE
Posted: Tue Mar 19, 2019 9:54 am
by averageguy
Jeff, I use an approach to training Steadiness that I learned primarily from the Perfect Start/Perfect Finish DVDs and attending Clinics at Perfection Kennel. It has worked well for me and my dogs.
The foundation of it is a very well trained Whoa command that the dog will comply with in all situations the dog is placed in. I train Whoa and then proof it in many distraction situations before I combine it with flushing and flying birds. When I start using Whoa around birds, requiring the dog to stand while birds fly away, I start first with pigeons released by an assistant from a bird bag from a downwind location from the dog so no pointing or scent is involved. That approach places a lot less pressure on the young dog than does a bird on the ground upwind of the dog, while the dog is pointing. Only after the dog is steady to flown birds released in this manner, that it is not smelling and pointing, do I move to pointed birds. I want the dog to understand that Whoa means Whoa no matter what the situation.
Another thing that helps a young dog in its steadiness training is if the dog has been conditioned to not approach the birds once it hits good scent and has not been allowed to point too close to the birds. You posted you have been using pigeons in launchers, which if done correctly are an excellent tool for getting a dog to point at first scent and not road in towards the bird. Hopefully that is where you are at now in your training as you begin your steadiness training.
I think studying a good DVD program is a great way for you have a roadmap of the building blocks you need to get where you want to be with your dog. Attending a Clinic where you and your dog work under the instruction a talented Pro even better. Taking and posting video of you working with your dog is great way to give those you are seeking advice from, the information they need in order to best advise you meanwhile. Best of Luck.
Re: STEADY TO RELEASE
Posted: Tue Mar 19, 2019 11:22 am
by JEFFP5217
averageguy wrote: ↑Tue Mar 19, 2019 9:54 am
Jeff, I use an approach to training Steadiness that I learned primarily from the Perfect Start/Perfect Finish DVDs and attending Clinics at Perfection Kennel. It has worked well for me and my dogs.
The foundation of it is a very well trained Whoa command that the dog will comply with in all situations the dog is placed in. I train Whoa and then proof it in many distraction situations before I combine it with flushing and flying birds. When I start using Whoa around birds, requiring the dog to stand while birds fly away, I start first with pigeons released by an assistant from a bird bag from a downwind location from the dog so no pointing or scent is involved. That approach places a lot less pressure on the young dog than does a bird on the ground upwind of the dog, while the dog is pointing. Only after the dog is steady to flow birds released in this manner, that it is not smelling and pointing, do I move to pointed birds. I want the dog to understand that Whoa means Whoa no matter what the situation.
Another thing that helps a young dog in its steadiness training is if the dog has been conditioned to not approach the birds once it hits good scent and has not been allowed to point too close to the birds. You posted you have been using pigeons in launchers, which if done correctly are an excellent tool for getting a dog to point at first scent and not road in towards the bird. Hopefully that is where you are at now in your training as you begin your steadiness training.
I think studying a good DVD program is a great way for you have a roadmap of the building blocks you need to get where you want to be with your dog. Attending a Clinic where you and your dog work under the instruction a talented Pro even better. Taking and posting video of you working with your dog is great way to give those you are seeking advice from, the information they need in order to best advise you meanwhile. Best of Luck.
Yes that was my goal of training with the launcher was for him to use his nose not his eyes, and it has worked out great. He has pointed at some birds from up to 20 yards away this past weekend. Now I just need to move to the next step in training, I have worked with him pointing at a distance and then "checking" him to move forward when the bird is farther away and point again so I can see how that is similar to Mr. Higgins method just not the flush portion.
Re: STEADY TO RELEASE
Posted: Tue Mar 19, 2019 5:18 pm
by polmaise
I envy you guys with a single bird to teach the dog.
Often as with this young one at 1 year old ,they grow up fast by learning the game early on in training, without pigeons.
https://youtu.be/qaZ-mXP-Lgg