New to training

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DogNewb
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New to training

Post by DogNewb » Tue Jan 29, 2019 9:24 pm

Hello, new to the site and sort of new to the versatile dog world. My Pudelpointer pup is a week shy of 7 months old. I’ve done bird introductions with pigeons and quail a few times and fired 22 blanks with no issues. He has pointed the birds surprisingly well and held for a few seconds. I need to invest in a launcher or two very soon as training without a helper and on a check cord has its challenges, different story for another time. I get him in the woods and off leash at least once a week and he ranges out sometimes as much as 200 yards. He’s very bold and has bloodied himself up a time or two in the briars going after song birds. There aren’t many game birds close by any longer but I did take him to a spot that has birds and he scent pointed a spot where a grouse has flushed ahead of us about 100 yards. He didn’t see it but we did from the road. I do my best to exercise him daily either with several walks a day totaling 5-7 miles or tethered to my mountain bike for a good 3-4 mile run. He will whoa and hold until release when waiting on his food dish and when I stop him randomly on leashes walks. Those have been good things.
No for the not so good: At times he is very difficult to live with in the house. Full of energy and constantly going after pillows, jumping on counters, chasing the cat and going after my 11 year old daughters shoes, jacket, backpack, trying to hump her leg or whatever else. He barks at her and bumps her or jumps. He doesn’t do this with my 9yo son. He picks up everything on the ground and road he can get close to. He pulls like an ox on the leash and jumps on everyone in site. On command he will go in his kennel, come when called in the house (not so much in the field), will “leave it” when training but have to pull him away from things or dig it out of his mouth when not a training situation. When told no he stops but circles back and does it again. I’ve never had a dog that’s constantly having to be watched, corrected and so forth.
What should I expect OB wise from these type dogs at this age? I’m the first to admit I may be out of my element. Aside from a short stint with a GSP that ended up with a heart problem my other dogs were mutts from the pound that were easy going in the house.
I want a dog that’s a beast in the woods but laid back at home. Or should I hope to be able to simply tolerate him lol? Again this is my first attempt training and I’m sure all these failures are my fault.
I’d like to start working on heel, come with distractions and while in the field, counter surfing and jumping on people. Any suggestions on how to achieve this or words of encouragement that lets me know it gets better haha

shags
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Re: New to training

Post by shags » Wed Jan 30, 2019 6:00 am

That behavior will get better if you and everyone in the family get after him, and hard. Some part of it is just puppy stuff, but IME it isn't outgrown if allowed to continue. Mellowing in the house might be something that comes with more maturity, but you can hasten it by requiring that your dog simmers down when he gets too rambunctious.

Your pup isn't evil, he just has really bad manners which should have been corrected long ago. Sorry, this is on you.

Teach heel with a prong collar, or a wonder lead.

For jumping up on people, make him whoa until released. You have to anticipate him and correct before it happens. If You're too late with it, just pull him off and read him the riot act.

Counter surfing, get after him hard. Mousetraps set on the edge of the counter or tables help too.

The behavior with your daughter is all dominance. You need to teach the girl to be assertive with the dog. Let her put down the feed pan as you do, whaoing the dog first. Get her in on some of the training.

You can work on recall with a checkcord, then without in a controlled area where you can catch the dog if he blows you off.

By seven months my dogs have all been ecollar conditioned, and that's what I used to reinforce recall in the field. At 5-7 months or so they got big for their britches and blew off recalls, and the ecollar helped them to remember. Get the other stuff under control before you think about an ecollar though, you need to train yourself to train your dog before you make that leap. It sounds like you aren't ready for it yet.

Good luck, you can get it done...you're just somewhat behind but you can catch up.

averageguy
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Re: New to training

Post by averageguy » Wed Jan 30, 2019 7:00 am

Adding to Shags post.

I find great value in training a DOWN command. We use it when waterfowl hunting a good bit, putting on dog boots on the tailgate and any other situation where I want to put a more emphatic anchor on my dog. I also use it to address behavior in the house I do not like.

We live on a remote farm and have a long gravel driveway with a sensor that goes off in the house to indicate when a vehicle is coming up the drive. My GWP understandably gets real excited when it goes off. If allowed to, He will trot around, whine and has attempted to bolt past me when I went out the door to accept a delivery. I squelched the behavior quickly by putting him in a DOWN position the moment he starts the behavior and requiring him to remain there until I arrive back into the house. I will also sometimes require him to HEEL calmly with me while I go out to take the delivery. Sometimes I let him go with me and greet the delivery man, other times I put him in a DOWN command while I proceed.

The point is I establish control and let him know I am in control, always, not him and I teach him self control in the very moments when he is prone to having little. It has been highly effective.

If you taught the DOWN command and then had your daughter work the dog with the command both of you will quickly teach the dog that he is at the bottom rung in your Pack. He will still be happy and you will be MUCH Happier.

The other command that is universal and critical is NO! It means stop whatever you are doing immediately.

The counter surfing and attacking pillows are two examples you have shared where I would apply a NO command and enforce it with a level of physical negative re-enforcement that the dog learns to immediately yield to it. Starting at 9 months with a bold German line dog, that may include a wack with a riding crop (with the flapper end on it not the string) which makes more noise but does not harm the dog. Which I am not big on in terms of doing it alot, but it is better to get the point across once and not have to do it again than for the two of you to nag each other for the rest of your days.

Meskousing
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Re: New to training

Post by Meskousing » Wed Jan 30, 2019 8:55 am

I would add a few insights....

First, you are better than most dog owners- you admit that you are at fault for your dog's behavior. I am in the same boat and it takes a lot to admit and even more to be willing to do something about. It takes a lot to modify our own behaviors that are entrenched. After all, if it was easy I'd be 30-pounds lighter. You don't know what you don't know.

Dogs are very perceptive and location oriented. They're also able to apply context. Dogs are able to learn that 'here' in the field means to come to heel, but when someone says 'here' at home, it can mean stop doing what you're doing. I don't believe that's a good thing, but that can happen if those in the house aren't upholding standards that you expect in the field. Dogs also quickly learn that 'here' from one voice has different expectations than 'here' from another voice.

I would suggest getting everyone to learn along with you. Take an obedience class and have the whole family come along. You'll all learn and be on the same page. As suggested above, there is clearly some dominance issues with your daughter. Normal, but not acceptable.

I found teaching the dog various obedience commands in the house was helpful. We use 'wait' before going through doors. I always go first and release him when I'm ready for him to go through. It's handy for when I have an armful of groceries, firewood, etc. It also helps to establish that the boss goes first and that his behavior is associated with commands. Teaching it was simple. He would try and bolt through the door and I would say 'wait' and tug on his leash to prevent him from going through. I walk through the door and say 'free' to let him know he can do as he wants. Then, as he learned that he couldn't bolt through the door and waited, I gave him a treat. That's an abbreviated version, but I used it on interior and exterior doors. It can also be taught for transitions with boundaries, like where a room transitions from carpet to tile, garage to driveway, and especially grass to pavement (roads.)

If you're able to get the whole family to join in on the training and alter their behavior, write back in a year and let me know your secrets. I haven't been able to succeed in four years.

Good luck and enjoy the ride!

DogNewb
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Re: New to training

Post by DogNewb » Wed Jan 30, 2019 9:45 am

Thanks for the comments everyone. Couple things:

I can get him to whoa during our walks on the leash, going in and out of doors and generally in the house when he is crazy. The yard seems to be a different story though as well as getting him to come. I had him on the check cord yesterday in the yard working on come. He did decent but after awhile he decided to attack the cord and chew and tug on it. I also began e-collar conditioning in the house with teaching him to turn it off by going in the kennel when commanded, something he was doing every time already. After a few times he started going beside the kennel or stopping and trying to scratch his neck around the collar. I have a Dogtra Pathfinder that kind of sucks as an e-collar but it’s what I’ve got. It was set to a 3. Level 1 did nothing and I noticed nothing at a 2 but 3 made his ear twitch. In the yard he came with it at a 3 but got a little weird after a few times and would run so I ended it for the day. I have a pinch collar and started heel with it. Sometimes he does fine and other times he’ll stop and sit and then jump on me when I pull.

Again, I’m trying to implement what I’ve read in books and watched on DVDs. I’m wondering if I’m applying to much pressure or if he needs more or if I’m plain and simply doing it wrong?

I’ve been consistent with No as well and half the time it works. I haven’t taught sit or down because I was under the assumption you want them pointing birds consistently off the check cord first

EAM
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Re: New to training

Post by EAM » Wed Jan 30, 2019 10:05 am

I can relate to all your problems. I believe if you stick with the discipline the dog can calm down. I am not an expert but my Brittany was pretty difficult to live with in the home until about a year and a half. He is almost two now and if he isn't running outside, prefers to lay on his bed and sleep. He wasn't like that for what seemed to be along time. What worked for me was spending a lot of time with him, getting him a lot of excercise, and correcting inappropriate behavior.

I have younger kids as well and I still don't let the dog just roam around the house if I cant keep an eye on him. There are just to many toys and distractions and food and pillows to be a possible problem. I have baby gates in the kitchen and his bed in there and he spends a lot of time in there. We are in there a lot so its not like he is by himself that often.

I know the environment matters because I take my dog to work with me, its a small office environment, and he has always been pretty calm there and easy to be with. But, at home iwth all those distractions like with my 3 year old son throwing toys around and screaming, it is different. It is better now.

Some dogs from what I understand wont ever calm down. But, you just need to keep working on it.

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Sharon
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Re: New to training

Post by Sharon » Wed Jan 30, 2019 3:15 pm

DogNewb wrote:Hello, new to the site and sort of new to the versatile dog world. My Pudelpointer pup is a week shy of 7 months old. I’ve done bird introductions with pigeons and quail a few times and fired 22 blanks with no issues. He has pointed the birds surprisingly well and held for a few seconds. I need to invest in a launcher or two very soon as training without a helper and on a check cord has its challenges, different story for another time. I get him in the woods and off leash at least once a week and he ranges out sometimes as much as 200 yards. He’s very bold and has bloodied himself up a time or two in the briars going after song birds. There aren’t many game birds close by any longer but I did take him to a spot that has birds and he scent pointed a spot where a grouse has flushed ahead of us about 100 yards. He didn’t see it but we did from the road. I do my best to exercise him daily either with several walks a day totaling 5-7 miles or tethered to my mountain bike for a good 3-4 mile run. He will whoa and hold until release when waiting on his food dish and when I stop him randomly on leashes walks. Those have been good things.
No for the not so good: At times he is very difficult to live with in the house. Full of energy and constantly going after pillows, jumping on counters, chasing the cat and going after my 11 year old daughters shoes, jacket, backpack, trying to hump her leg or whatever else. He barks at her and bumps her or jumps. He doesn’t do this with my 9yo son. He picks up everything on the ground and road he can get close to. He pulls like an ox on the leash and jumps on everyone in site. On command he will go in his kennel, come when called in the house (not so much in the field), will “leave it” when training but have to pull him away from things or dig it out of his mouth when not a training situation. When told no he stops but circles back and does it again. I’ve never had a dog that’s constantly having to be watched, corrected and so forth.
What should I expect OB wise from these type dogs at this age? I’m the first to admit I may be out of my element. Aside from a short stint with a GSP that ended up with a heart problem my other dogs were mutts from the pound that were easy going in the house.
I want a dog that’s a beast in the woods but laid back at home. Or should I hope to be able to simply tolerate him lol? Again this is my first attempt training and I’m sure all these failures are my fault.
I’d like to start working on heel, come with distractions and while in the field, counter surfing and jumping on people. Any suggestions on how to achieve this or words of encouragement that lets me know it gets better haha

not enough hard running exercise........If you want him to calm down in the house, he has to get out every day for a hard run. I know it is hard to find the time for that; you may have to get up at 5 am. but....
" We are more than our gender, skin color, class, sexuality or age; we are unlimited potential, and can not be defined by one label." quote A. Bartlett

Meskousing
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Re: New to training

Post by Meskousing » Wed Jan 30, 2019 7:47 pm

DogNewb wrote:Thanks for the comments everyone. Couple things:

I can get him to whoa during our walks on the leash, going in and out of doors and generally in the house when he is crazy. The yard seems to be a different story though as well as getting him to come. I had him on the check cord yesterday in the yard working on come. He did decent but after awhile he decided to attack the cord and chew and tug on it. I also began e-collar conditioning in the house with teaching him to turn it off by going in the kennel when commanded, something he was doing every time already. After a few times he started going beside the kennel or stopping and trying to scratch his neck around the collar. I have a Dogtra Pathfinder that kind of sucks as an e-collar but it’s what I’ve got. It was set to a 3. Level 1 did nothing and I noticed nothing at a 2 but 3 made his ear twitch. In the yard he came with it at a 3 but got a little weird after a few times and would run so I ended it for the day. I have a pinch collar and started heel with it. Sometimes he does fine and other times he’ll stop and sit and then jump on me when I pull.

Again, I’m trying to implement what I’ve read in books and watched on DVDs. I’m wondering if I’m applying to much pressure or if he needs more or if I’m plain and simply doing it wrong?

I’ve been consistent with No as well and half the time it works. I haven’t taught sit or down because I was under the assumption you want them pointing birds consistently off the check cord first
If you can't get him outside for good runs, some of that energy can be taken off by training. Training that requires mental energy will tire out a dog faster than running sprints.

Timing on corrections and praise are equally or more important than the level of corrections. I'm not an expert (just trying to sound like one) but to me your e-collar approach seems a bit off. The best advice I can give is to get with someone that can see your dog, see how you handle your dog, and correct you (maybe with an e-collar :) ) There are e-collar obedience instructors that may be able to help, too. WHen I was newer, I was doing the best I could do to mimic what I saw on videos, but I wasn't getting the timing right. I struggled with mimicking what I saw on videos, reading my dog, and thinking about how to respond. My coordination, timing, praise, corrections were all off. Get with someone and you'll be surprised at the difference. Yes, it will cost some money and/or time, but the investment in this dog and future dogs will be well worth it. You may have to throw some birds, shovel poo, or some other kennel task with a pro to get help, but you won't regret it.

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gonehuntin'
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Re: New to training

Post by gonehuntin' » Wed Jan 30, 2019 9:53 pm

DogNewb wrote: No for the not so good: At times he is very difficult to live with in the house. Full of energy and constantly going after pillows, jumping on counters, chasing the cat and going after my 11 year old daughters shoes, jacket, backpack, trying to hump her leg or whatever else. He barks at her and bumps her or jumps. He doesn’t do this with my 9yo son. He picks up everything on the ground and road he can get close to. He pulls like an ox on the leash and jumps on everyone in site. On command he will go in his kennel, come when called in the house (not so much in the field), will “leave it” when training but have to pull him away from things or dig it out of his mouth when not a training situation. When told no he stops but circles back and does it again. I’ve never had a dog that’s constantly having to be watched, corrected and so forth.
What should I expect OB wise from these type dogs at this age? I’m the first to admit I may be out of my element. Aside from a short stint with a GSP that ended up with a heart problem my other dogs were mutts from the pound that were easy going in the house.
Many of the problems you are experiencing are cured with the word "NO". NO should stop the pup from doing everything. There is something you should know about this type of dog: If you don't command him, he'll command you. Put the clamps on now because the older he gets, the harder it will be. If she won't do it you get a heeling stick and give him a crack on the butt when he does it.

A good pinch collar will take care of the pulling. Treat him when he does well, give him a good jerk on the pinch collar when he pulls. Everything you have named is cured with simple obedience. If you don't know how to teach the obedience get a good DVD or book. You have to get a handle on the dog or you'll never train him. Good Luck.

Going after the cat, jumping on counters, grabbing pillows are the same. Get to him fast, grab him by the nap of the neck and give him a darn good shake, commanding NO as you dog. If he thinks you're playing give him a darn good crack on the but. If he picks up a pillow, yell NO, slap it out of his mouth, and tell him NO. Replace the pillow with a toy. Your daughter could end this crap now by simply kneeing him as hard as she can in the chest when he jumps on her and yelling NO! At him.
LIFE WITHOUT BIRD DOGS AND FLY RODS REALLY ISN'T LIFE AT ALL.

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