Puppy Training -Pro-Diy ? USA/UK

[polmaise]

Like everything in Text ,you have to take it in context . Please.
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In the UK (Believe it or not) Many of the successful breed lines or kennel names who are successful in Field trials Farm out Pups for early conditioning (basic Training) which includes all the obedience stuff like Heel and potty training and sit ,recall etc etc ... To trusted or known handler/Trainers who can achieve this to the level where the dog is either passed back to the "Pro handler/Trainer" who then Finishes the dog with the extra Polish required for Competition . (Some do not make that stage and are Sold off as Gun Dogs in the Shooting Field ) ..and many are excellent Dogs who perform well for that task and are loved and adored by their Shooting companion .
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There Cant be ,or Is Not ,anything wrong with this (In my eyes) ! This part is not for discussion because it is a Win/Win for both Dog and New Owner .(Many millions would testify)
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In Context , Even the Professional Kennels that have their own Staff ,to do all this basic Puppy stuff/conditioning training etc ..Including kennel hygiene and airing with 20 + dogs ,It dont take long to figure one person cant do this in one day ,no matter what country you are in .
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The Best one individual has is One Dog or two and make it a Champion ! Well that special one Is a Champion !!! .....No room for error there then ..
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My point to the post .
How many would send their Newly purchased pup from a breeder at 12 weeks old for Professional Training /conditioning for 6 month and have it back when all those basics were in place ,then you could start any program you like ...or even your own ?
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[Settertude]

Not a chance of my ever doing this.
I value the time and bonding potential of each and every one of those days.
Although I know there is a sliding scale, I think that there are two fields in general.
Where a man's dog is a tool or a friend for life.

I fall to the extreme end of that scale. The toolidge is at the other end.

[polmaise]

I fall to the extreme end of that scale. The toolidge is at the other end.

I agree it depends on how One markets oneself

[cjhills]

I have never had a bonding issue with a dog no matter what age I got them at.
I had a buyer of a puppy leave it with me until he achieved his Master title. Also a kept a few dogs from 3 months old until they achieved their Master at 18 months to 24 months. It seemed a little ridiculous to me, but who knows.
My guess is most people would not spend the money it takes to do this, even though it cost as much to do it on their own and the risk factor is higher.....Cj

[Trekmoor]

If this question had been asked of me just a few years back I'd have said I would not hand over one of my pups for someone else to train. Time, however, has caught up with me and so my present springer and my lab were given to another trainer to train but not until I had done the fun, early stuff with them. It was the more advanced training my two pups got from a friend who is a good trainer.

We did an exchange of pups deal. He got my two older pups while I got one of his 5 months old spaniel pups to train and generally have fun with. I am good at having fun with pups while they learn without ever realising they are being trained.

I was very pleased with what my friend had achieved with my two pups ….although I have since ruined most of his hard work by taking them shooting ! My friends spaniel pup was a delight to have here ….she was the best springer I've ever got my paws on. My friend was very pleased with what I'd got her doing so enthusiastically and after he'd added the "bells and whistles" to it she began to do well in field trials.

I do see some merit in giving pups over to other people to train provided those people are capable dog trainers. I wouldn't pay for it though..... I am a Scot after all !

Bill T.

[Settertude]

I fall to the extreme end of that scale. The toolidge is at the other end.

I agree it depends on how One markets oneself

Or just how one is...flaws and all.
I once worked with and for a trainer. It worked well to train pups and owners together to get them started.
Nowadays, I strive for and reach a reasonable level of mediocrity.

[birddogger2]

First let me say that I believe the choice depends, to a large degree on what the owner wishers for the "end product", AND on the ability/willingness of the owner as trainer.

There is no question that Polmaise's description of the process to discover and develop a top flight performer, capable of winning competitions, is highly effective and efficient. Indeed, many of the very top AF competitors in the US never interact with their owners during their competitive careers, or at most, go home during the summer for a couple of months.

For me personally, I have no desire to send a puppy away, simply because they can be soooo much fun during the first 12 months of their life. The other thing is admittedly selfish on my part. I get a huge thrill being there when the "light comes on". It is not the same as with your own children...but it is a rush never the less.

I also want that bond which comes from daily interaction.

FWIW, I have, in the past, sent dogs away for finishing training, or when I was having a problem moving forward with a dog. will continue to do that, as necessary in the future.

RayG

[polmaise]

A friend of Mine already an established Handler/Owner with a couple of dogs (Retrievers) at MH - HRCH Resident in USA ,was thinking about this model as a "Business" . Curiously at the same time I have another Friend who has just re-located to the USA from the UK ,with the intention of similar .
Just wondered what both their "Markets" would be like as they had both asked me a similar question? (Appreciate many on this board are Pointer/HPR/Setter/Versatile) breeds .
Regards
Robert

[JONOV]

A friend of Mine already an established Handler/Owner with a couple of dogs (Retrievers) at MH - HRCH Resident in USA ,was thinking about this model as a "Business" . Curiously at the same time I have another Friend who has just re-located to the USA from the UK ,with the intention of similar .
Just wondered what both their "Markets" would be like as they had both asked me a similar question? (Appreciate many on this board are Pointer/HPR/Setter/Versatile) breeds .
Regards
Robert

There are a couple of folks doing similar things. Barton Ramsey and Southern Oak Kennels, more of a breeder out of dogs he imports, but he does sell adult dogs.

Wildrose Kennels is first and most famous name that comes to mind.

I know Barton Ramsey and Wildrose both import a fair amount of dogs for their programs. Barton Ramsey has a few interviews on Podcasts that might be informative, bot the "Hunting Dog Podcast" and "HP Waterfowl Podcast."

I'm going to get flamed for this...But I'll say it anyway. If they're UK Natives, and have connections to bring back Nice, well bred labs and are decent trainers, they'd do well. For the same reason the two or three Irish Caddies were in high demand at the Golf Course I worked at for years, just hilarious how they'd smoke a cigarette reading a putt and get laughs about it and a dude from the South Side of Chicago would get fired for smoking on the course.

We, as Americans, tend to look at how other countries do things, read a magazine article or two, and think, "That's how it really ought to be done. Way Better, Totally different Product!" And never look at pitfalls and warts. It's true of dogs, Healthcare, Public Transportation, food, Business, and everything else. Nevermind the fact that Japan has way better trains because its densely populated, the NHS has its own share of challenges, and that Italians and the French eat healthier and are skinnier because they walk more and don't stock up on a month and a half worth of food at one Costco trip, not because their bread is from a magically healthier wheat.

So it is with dogs; someone gets in their head that because their uncle's neighbor had a son of Rawhide's Clown that was wound tighter than a drum, ran to the end of the earth, and didn't like to swim, that GSP's in the US are garbage, and they must buy a dog from Germany and pray the neighbor's cat stays in its own yard.

Or, his hunting buddy bought too much/the wrong Labrador and self trained it poorly and eats the cockamany line that "Its a Field Trial Lab. That's the problem. Gotta get a British Lab."

That being said, the UK Retriever Trials as I understand them are probably producing dogs that are more suited for Joe Duckhunter, whether he trains them himself or not.

[polmaise]

Thanks JONOV,
That is pretty much a good summary .
Regards
Robert

[RyanDoolittle]

In north america with pointing breeds the best money you can spend is sending your dog to the prairie for the 1st 2 summers starting at 6 months or a year.

The first year they will learn to handle and that they are out there to work.

2nd year they should come back green broke.

After that you will have a dog better trained than most people.

[Trekmoor]

I'm going to get flamed for this...But I'll say it anyway. If they're UK Natives, and have connections to bring back Nice, well bred labs and are decent trainers, they'd do well.

Is it the perception among some N. Americans that British bred labs are better trained by British trainers JONOV ? By that I mean that because a British trainer is less likely to use F.F. or use an e-collar , the British bred labs will do better ?


If so then I don't think they are wholly correct.


Bill T.

[JONOV]

I'm going to get flamed for this...But I'll say it anyway. If they're UK Natives, and have connections to bring back Nice, well bred labs and are decent trainers, they'd do well.

Is it the perception among some N. Americans that British bred labs are better trained by British trainers JONOV ? By that I mean that because a British trainer is less likely to use F.F. or use an e-collar , the British bred labs will do better ?


If so then I don't think they are wholly correct.


Bill T.

I think it has little to Nothing to do with training methods, real or perceived, at all, but rather the perception that one is getting a more genuine article or experience than they would elsewhere. I know or know of a handful of folks in the Versatile Dog world that imported DK's or DD's; not for a breeding program, just because a perception that a Deutsch Drahthaar born in Germany is more Deutsch than one born in New Jersey. Might there be slight differences in emphasis? There might, but the idea that the imported dog is inherently superior in most appreciable aspects is laughable if you think critically about it.

The term "British" (or Irish or English or whatever) lab is extremely vague. All it really means is a lab that isn't from North American Field Trial lines and is usually a bit shorter in stature, often with a blockier head. The perception is also a calmer, less stubborn animal, though I'm not qualified to evaluate the truth of that statement.

The rest of it is all sizzle and no steak. There really isn't a lack of good dogs here, and I'm assuming the UK produces some bad ones just like we do.

[Trekmoor]

It does.

Bill T.

[polmaise]

Marketing.
Like shortbread on a biscuit Tin. ..So many buy the tin .
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Perhaps the other way round ,Not many that I know are sold/marketed from one side to the other ? :roll:

[JONOV]

Marketing.
Like shortbread on a biscuit Tin. ..So many buy the tin .
..
Perhaps the other way round ,Not many that I know are sold/marketed from one side to the other ? :roll:

Exactly...They buy the tin. As my brother said about fishing lures, "You know why they make so many colors? Fishermen like to look at them."

Polmaise or Trekmoor, can you elaborate on retriever trials in the UK? I was told that they basically are expected to walk quietly at heel in a line of other dogs, til game is put before the gun, shot, and each dogs "turn" goes down the line. So Dog 1 gets the first bird shot, dog 2 gets the second bird shot...And the theory is that for your average (American) hunter, that's a better fit for their lifestyles.

[crackerd]

Marketing.
Like shortbread on a biscuit Tin. ..So many buy the tin .
..
Perhaps the other way round ,Not many that I know are sold/marketed from one side to the other ? :roll: :wink:

Coals to Newcastle notwithstanding, Robt., your being a pretty bright bloke, I'm pretty sure you know the reason behind the "one-way trade," aye?

That said, see where my favorite (without the "u" this time) "British Lab" breeder is back on rtf - may need to ask him about importing a "British Lab" pup from...upstate New York. No quarantine required...even on the Eastern Seaboard.

MG

[Trekmoor]

Polmaise or Trekmoor, can you elaborate on retriever trials in the UK? I was told that they basically are expected to walk quietly at heel in a line of other dogs, til game is put before the gun, shot, and each dogs "turn" goes down the line. So Dog 1 gets the first bird shot, dog 2 gets the second bird shot...And the theory is that for your average (American) hunter, that's a better fit for their lifestyles.

JONOV.... yes , in our field trials the dogs are expected to walk silently at heel beside their handler in the line of handlers and their dogs, the judges, the gamekeeper(s), the guns and the gamecarriers. The "line" can be more than 100 yards long. The handlers are not permitted to talk to their dog at all during the walking, not when birds are flushed by the line, not when shots are fired and not when birds fall either. It can, if game is scarce , be a long and very nerve wracking silent walk !

Dogs are eliminated for any noise including a very slight squeak but many judges will only warn the handler that if the dog repeats the noise it will then be eliminated. "Undue restiveness" in the line whether when walking at heel or when sitting after a bird has fallen will result in a downgrade of the dog's scoresheet...... I once got knocked back from a probable first place to a second place because the dog I was "running off" with was a calmer walker to heel . My lab bitch was sort of dancing as she walked ! Two of the judges had a word with me later, they said , "Bill, she never leaves heel and she never runs-in , but she always looks as if she's going to ! We felt we couldn't relax for a moment near her !"

It was fair comment. She did always look ready to run-in ! I loved that bitch to bits , that was Trekmoor Tessa, a rip-roarer of a lab !

Bill T.

[polmaise]

JONOV ,In addition to what Bill portrayed. Not all Field Trials are "Walked up" in a Line ,some especially in Englandshire have a few that are standing ,like a Driven day or Duck shoot. It is also often that Spaniels are used in a Field Trial to flush the game ,they would be working in front of the walking line . That game (In season) to be shot by the spaced out guns in the line . The game can vary from Snipe/Woodcock/Rabbit/Hare/Duck/Pheasant/Partridge and Grouse .
You are correct that in a Walked up Field Trial the dogs who retrieve (judged) by Number drawn on the day) and as Bill mentioned the Line can be 100 yards long with various terrain /contours/Obstacles between the right hand side and the left hand side . So again like mentioned ,if dog N01 is on the right and first piece of game is shot on the left then the dog will have to take a line ..."Down the Line" passing all others. Invariably a Shot bird or Ground game may well be a Mark for everyone except The dog and handler "Doing the retrieve" .. We place Game finding ability In a High precedence. A "Moot point" ..regarding Heel , The one that is Head and shoulders in front of the handler Can "Scan" more area left and Right ,than one that is not ....We also value ,highly the dogs "Marking ability" ! ...But it has to See it ..to give it a chance .
Bill also "touched" on the contact between Handler and dog (when judged) ...Yup ..No contact what so ever No verbal Heel, No verbal here,No verbal praise or Good Boy ,and Definitely No Touch Praise or correction ..all Non Slip.
You get One crack at your run/Retrieve ..and if the dog and handler doesn't make a "Workman like" attempt at it and with the dog responding to every single whistle stop or direction ..with No Urgency ..You are Out ...!
Our Scoring in a Field Trial is Not by any Number ,Each run by the dog and handler is graded by letters .A and B ..The addition to this is A+ . B+ , A- B- , the only other option is "See you later" .You are sent home. (Then there is the infamous "Eye-Wipe") ..That is the Ultimate .....For me

[j d patrick]

as far as labs,,,,I just wish I could have cloned my lab,,,she's coming 14 years old,,,,time is about over for her and I will miss her spirit and enthusiasm,,,,hoping my foray into the versatile realm will ease that some,,,,,,,

[Trekmoor]

Quote …"Bill also "touched" on the contact between Handler and dog (when judged) ...Yup ..No contact what so ever No verbal Heel, No verbal here,No verbal praise or Good Boy ,and Definitely No Touch Praise or correction ..all Non Slip. " end quote.

Yep, the above quote from Robert is absolutely correct. It is far, far more difficult than most people might think to train a retriever to this standard. It is fine on the occasions when you are only in the line for a couple of minutes but having a dog walk to heel for 30 minutes or more while never "contacting" it by touch or by any manner of audible control is much harder than you might think. The dog is seeing game, hearing game and scenting game both shot and unshot during it's time in the line .

It is also seeing the other in line dogs running past them in order to fetch birds that have fallen close to your at heel dog. When you add to that the fact that your dog is also seeing a hunt crazy spaniel flushing birds just in front of it then the meaning of the word "steadiness" goes up to a whole new level.

Also as mentioned by Robert , the dogs may have to sit at heel and remain there while a drive is conducted right over the tops of their heads. One of the most nerve wracking experiences I ever had in a retriever trial came during a trial at which game was in very short supply. By the start of the afternoon the pheasants were non-existent ! It was decided to finish the trial by just standing us remaining handlers in a fairly small field surrounded by woodlands while the guns tried to shoot the woodpigeons as they flighted overhead.

I stood there with my very "hot" bitch Tessa sitting at heel for something like an hour and a half without being allowed to communicate with her at all. She was sort of remaining in a sitting pose but bouncing herself up and down by an inch or two every time a shot was fired..... it stretched my nerves to the limit !

During all that time she was only required to retrieve twice. The first retrieve was a relatively easy one but the second one was an eye-wipe on a bird that had fallen deep inside one of the surrounding woods. The first dog sent hadn't hunted well enough to find it and , because of the woodland cover, the handler could not handle his dog and wouldn't have known exactly where to send it to anyway.


I was then told to send my bitch from where I was for this bird and all I could do was send her the 80 yards or so towards the woods and then leave her to get on with the job. She eventually emerged from the wood with the pigeon and won the trial but a good deal of luck was involved in that win , I think luck plays a bigger part in British trials than in those held in the states as our dogs are not and cannot always be given retrieves of equal difficulty ? This is why we value "game finding ability" so highly , it's kind of funny how it's so often the lucky dogs that have the most game finding ability !

Bill T.

[gundogguy]

Quote …"Bill also "touched" on the contact between Handler and dog (when judged) ...Yup ..No contact what so ever No verbal Heel, No verbal here,No verbal praise or Good Boy ,and Definitely No Touch Praise or correction ..all Non Slip. " end quote.

Yep, the above quote from Robert is absolutely correct. It is far, far more difficult than most people might think to train a retriever to this standard. It is fine on the occasions when you are only in the line for a couple of minutes but having a dog walk to heel for 30 minutes or more while never "contacting" it by touch or by any manner of audible control is much harder than you might think. The dog is seeing game, hearing game and scenting game both shot and unshot during it's time in the line .

It is also seeing the other in line dogs running past them in order to fetch birds that have fallen close to your at heel dog. When you add to that the fact that your dog is also seeing a hunt crazy spaniel flushing birds just in front of it then the meaning of the word "steadiness" goes up to a whole new level.

Also as mentioned by Robert , the dogs may have to sit at heel and remain there while a drive is conducted right over the tops of their heads. One of the most nerve wracking experiences I ever had in a retriever trial came during a trial at which game was in very short supply. By the start of the afternoon the pheasants were non-existent ! It was decided to finish the trial by just standing us remaining handlers in a fairly small field surrounded by woodlands while the guns tried to shoot the woodpigeons as they flighted overhead.

I stood there with my very "hot" bitch Tessa sitting at heel for something like an hour and a half without being allowed to communicate with her at all. She was sort of remaining in a sitting pose but bouncing herself up and down by an inch or two every time a shot was fired..... it stretched my nerves to the limit !

During all that time she was only required to retrieve twice. The first retrieve was a relatively easy one but the second one was an eye-wipe on a bird that had fallen deep inside one of the surrounding woods. The first dog sent hadn't hunted well enough to find it and , because of the woodland cover, the handler could not handle his dog and wouldn't have known exactly where to send it to anyway.


I was then told to send my bitch from where I was for this bird and all I could do was send her the 80 yards or so towards the woods and then leave her to get on with the job. She eventually emerged from the wood with the pigeon and won the trial but a good deal of luck was involved in that win , I think luck plays a bigger part in British trials than in those held in the states as our dogs are not and cannot always be given retrieves of equal difficulty ? This is why we value "game finding ability" so highly , it's kind of funny how it's so often the lucky dogs that have the most game finding ability !

Bill T.

Good on You. Brilliant! Bill. We do not get to see that kind of work here in the states. We Springers, lost the "eye wipe" years before I ever entered the trial game I am certian there is no provision for an eye wipe in our Retriever trials. I'm not absolutely positive but the Cocker folks may still have a provision for it in their trial system. Years ago I saw it pulled off 3 times while I gunning Cocker trials here in Michigan.

Hal

[Trekmoor]

I have always enjoyed the "eyewipe" experience. You feel on top of the world when your dog pulls it off , especially if your dog has been the third or fourth dog the judges have tried on a bird !
On the other hand you feel a right numptie when someone else's dog pulls it off on you ! I've had both experiences !

Bill T.

[polmaise]

I have always enjoyed the "eyewipe" experience. You feel on top of the world when your dog pulls it off , especially if your dog has been the third or fourth dog the judges have tried on a bird !
On the other hand you feel a right numptie when someone else's dog pulls it off on you ! I've had both experiences !

Bill T.

Here Here ,,,from the Gallery Bill.
On a day to remember ..Feeling on top of the world in a Trial having knocked out 3 Ftchs and worthy contenders in the morning of 24 dogs starting ,being one of six left for the second day ,only to have the same done on the first retrieve in the morning as First dog down . Life certainly takes you High and low rather swiftly .