I need help with bird options

Post by **Ayres** » Fri Sep 24, 2004 2:27 am

I live in a two-story townhouse, with a very small fenced in back yard. Justus uses the back yard a lot to go potty and play around. He especially likes to sit on the swing in the morning sunlight and just look around.

There is some land around me that I can train Justus on, and we frequently take walks and bump game along the prairie grass field just outside my complex. I don't own any of this land, though, and really don't have any rights to put up a box of any kind for birds.

Now that you realize I have very limited options for keeping birds, what would you suggest?

Should I just try to catch birds all the time and not keep them? Should I build a small box in my backyard to keep a couple birds? I only have one dog so I shouldn't need fifty pigeons, but how many would I need?

I'm worried that if I'm left to just capture birds all the time I might not be able to keep a steady supply, and therefore I might not be able to train in what little time I have every evening. I'm also worried that if I build a small box in my backyard it might drive Justus nuts! I'm at a loss here and all input would be GREATLY appreciated.

I hope to get him on some birds very soon. He's nearing five months old, and comes on "here" all the time without much tugging or stimulation (unless he's completely distracted by other dogs or people, but we're working on that).

Country-Side Breeders · Post by **Country-Side Breeders** » Fri Sep 24, 2004 8:59 am

Have you done a search on this forum and read this post? http://www.gundogforum.com/viewtopic.ph ... geon+coops

Post by **Greg Jennings** » Fri Sep 24, 2004 11:17 am

I have homers. It's a great solution for me. One thing that you might want to think about, though. You probably won't want to raise many and so won't want to shoot them. You'll need feral pigeons, quail, chukars, etc. for that.

It wouldn't be much burden for you to have a few homers plus a trap and a dip-net-on-a-pole for feral pigeons.

Another thing that you might consider is a barrel quail house to put somewhere. There are pictures and ideas here: http://www.uplandbirddog.com/dogcamp/recall3.html . There is also a good document on the PointingDogs Yahoo group.

Later,

icefire · Post by **icefire** » Fri Sep 24, 2004 11:46 am

one dog will need a lot more then 50 pigeons if you are working consistantly and you do not have homers. i would second the homer idea though you do need to keep the loft somehow out of reach of the dog. you should be able to get by with 8-12 or so and do alright, and if you just buy young birds and do not try to breed a bunch of them a fairly small loft should do. a lot of folks have goten away with a pretty small loft in town and if you do it right, most people will not even know where the pigeons are coming from! as far as bird for shooting are concerned make a small pen attached or near your loft (so that it is also away from wht dogs reach) and just catch/buy what you need when you need them.

good luck!
Ice

Post by **Ayres** » Fri Sep 24, 2004 1:49 pm

I have read the other post about catching pigeons. I'm just not sure I can catch them consistently enough.

As for making a small coop for my backyard, I just don't know if it would drive Justus nuts with the birds being so close. My backyard is about 15' x 15' and fenced in. Even if I built a coop that was about four feet off the ground, would this cause my dog to go bird crazy and try to get in there all the time?

Has anyone ever had a problem with their dog trying to get into their bird coop?

If I could somehow keep a small coop, I could probably get by with about six homers. Six birds per day should be enough for one dog, right? (I could train more often than just a weekend.. actually most training would probably come on a weekday basis after my classes end)

As for shooting birds, I think I have found a source for quail close by, at $1 per bird or so. When do you start shooting the birds instead of shooting the blank pistol? Is that something that might be covered in Perfect Finish?

I know, lots of questions. This is the one aspect of training I don't have any idea about though.

PA_Sportsman · Post by **PA_Sportsman** » Fri Sep 24, 2004 1:57 pm

I think after the scent overload of birds in the yard passes, your pup should be fine. I've had quail in pens and pigeons in my coop and after a week or so, Gracie would investigate on occasion, but nothing major. By that time she had learned that birds were in fields and woods and not in crates or coops. It in no way affected her pointing and desire in the field. You should be fine as I know of awesome dogs that are kept with coops or pens in their yards. One is UT prize 1 204 weim.

icefire · Post by **icefire** » Fri Sep 24, 2004 3:39 pm

my pigeon loft is in the back year and when i eventually move i will not make that mistake again. it is not a big issue, but it does cause the occasion problem. and yes, some times the dogs go nut, they know what is in there!! i also have a pretty large loft and yard though so that might make a difference. often you are faced with situations that are not perfect or as you would choose but if the choice was to not keep birds or have a small loft in the back with the dog i would take the loft! as for as shooting birds for the dog, that starts at the end of gunbreaking and is covered in the perfect start. quail for $1? i am making a guess here but i will guess that they are cortunix. these are birds that do not fly very well and definatly smell different then bobwhites, most dogs from what i hear do not do as well on them. also they are often illegal to release as they are not native and are extremly prolific. I would stay with bobwhites. if you can get flighted bobwhites for $1 we need to talk!

Post by **Greg Jennings** » Fri Sep 24, 2004 4:28 pm

Ayres wrote: If I could somehow keep a small coop, I could probably get by with about six homers. Six birds per day should be enough for one dog, right? (I could train more often than just a weekend.. actually most training would probably come on a weekday basis after my classes end)

All you need is enough for 1 day. The homers will usually beat you home. I have 8 and do fine with that.

Don't discount catching some feral pigeons to card. It's a good technique. Catching some under a bridge with a spotlight and a dip-net-on-a-pole isn't very hard. You can catch them ahead of time and keep them around for when you need them.

Later,

Post by **Ayres** » Fri Sep 24, 2004 5:28 pm

About the quail for $1, I think I misread the ad. The 1 meant that the breeder has less than 2000 birds on hand, or something like that - not the price.

I do know where I can get flight conditioned quail used for training dogs for about $2.50 or so (If I remember right). But it's about two hours from my house so it isn't convenient at all. I need to call the local guy to find out what his prices are.

So, where exactly do you guys get homers?

Post by **Greg Jennings** » Fri Sep 24, 2004 5:48 pm

Ayres wrote: So, where exactly do you guys get homers?

Look on the national racing pigeon web site for breeders in your area. Contact them and ask to buy young birds or culls. Do not tell them that you're dog training with them.

Best regards,

emae · Post by **emae** » Fri Sep 24, 2004 7:30 pm

I had the hardest time finding homers. But just kept searching the net and finally found some near me. Be careful what you say, as I got chewed out big time being honest. I was told not to worry about saying what you use them for, as the "culls" are usually killed anyhow. Not always true

My loft is in my yard w/dogs as well. I have an nice size yard, and like the earlier post read, the dogs initially are all excited, but get used to it and realize the real fun is in the field.

Good Luck

Post by **ezzy333** » Sat Sep 25, 2004 1:13 am

We have all the homers you want here in northern IL. A friend of mine still raises them and has a couple of dozen every month at least, I got rid of mine but am trying to get a loft built here so i can raise some again.

Ezzy

Post by **Ayres** » Sat Sep 25, 2004 1:29 am

Is there a way to ship birds? I notice that Dixon is about three hours away (six-hour round trip) from me. I'd like birds, but I don't know that I could devote an entire day to getting them, what with school and all.

Also, if you can't tell a pigeon racer that you want the birds for dog training, then what do you tell them? You want them as "pets?"

Post by **Greg Jennings** » Sat Sep 25, 2004 10:37 am

Ayres wrote:Is there a way to ship birds? I notice that Dixon is about three hours away (six-hour round trip) from me. I'd like birds, but I don't know that I could devote an entire day to getting them, what with school and all.

Also, if you can't tell a pigeon racer that you want the birds for dog training, then what do you tell them? You want them as "pets?"

You can get a pigeon shipping crate and many other things from Foy's Pigeon Supply. You then ship them through the US Post Office.

You tell the pigeon guy that you want to fly them but that you're not interested in racing. Which happens to be the truth. He doesn't have to know that the pigeon's entry into the flight envelope is launcher-assisted.

Regards,

Post by **ezzy333** » Sun Sep 26, 2004 9:14 pm

If you will take enough I might be able to have them brought half way or so. I think Don has done this before. He used to take his and mine to northern WI but that was usally a couple of hundred birds at a time. If you tell me how many you want I could find the price it would take to bring them half way or more. Need to know just where you are located so could come up with a meeting place.

Ezzy

Post by **Ayres** » Mon Sep 27, 2004 12:30 pm

Ezzy, give me some time to build a pigeon coop (hopefully something I'll get to do this week) and I'd be very interested in getting a few homers from ya. I could probably take 6 or 8. I know that's not a lot, but I'd be willing to pay a some extra if you'd meet me half-way. It sure would save shipping costs, stress on the birds, and a whole lot of time.

I'm located in Savoy, IL, which runs right together with Champaign. If I'm not mistaken from when I looked on the map, Dixon is on I-88. Let me build the coop and get back to you and we'll figure out the best way/place to meet up.

In the meantime... I've seen in the resources section 'pigeon coop plans,' but I haven't seen any documentation on how to take care of the birds (feed, water, exercise, etc.). Anyone want to field that question?

Post by **Greg Jennings** » Mon Sep 27, 2004 12:56 pm

Spend some time surfing http://www.foyspigeonsupplies.com . That will give you the general idea.

Regards,

Post by **Ayres** » Mon Sep 27, 2004 2:11 pm

Quick note: How much to these homers cost? Looking around at the race pigeon websites, they seem to run on the expensive side

, and I'm thinking that if they're that high it might serve me well to just buy some quail as I need them.

Are homers comparable in price to quail (less than $3 per bird?) or are these high prices just because they're 'racing' homers from a good pedigree?

Post by **Ayres** » Mon Sep 27, 2004 3:17 pm

Also, before I commit to getting homers, how much space will be needed? I have measured a corner of my yard and I could build a coop that stands five feet off the ground, and is 3' x 2' x 2' high. That's twelve cubic feet of space for the birds. How many would be able to populate such a space?

Thanks for all the help, folks, I really appreciate getting firsthand knowledge on a subject such as this.

Post by **Greg Jennings** » Mon Sep 27, 2004 3:32 pm

http://www.uplandbirddog.com/training/loft.html

Regards,

Post by **Ayres** » Mon Sep 27, 2004 4:05 pm

Thanks for the link. I should check out uplandbirddog more often. Those plans make a coop that is entirely too big for my means though.

I had planned to build something like this: http://www.gundogmag.com/tools_trade/ho ... index.html

That link comes from the Resources section, but the author fails to say how many birds that loft holds.

Post by **Ayres** » Tue Oct 05, 2004 3:29 pm

Gotta bump this to get some answers. I'm at a loss. Right now I've got the loft about halfway built.

Before I put the wire mesh on the bottom of the coop, what, if anything, should I include inside the box?

I've seen some pigeon supply sites and they've got a lot of crap for sale, such as perches, nest boxes, etc. Do I really need all of that, or can I make due without?

I plan to get some homers and keep them in the box. Do I need to let them go for the winter, or can I keep them through the winter?

Finally, do I need to include a feeder with some sort of grit box, or can I just feed cracked corn or wild game bird feed?

I'm really trying to be as minimal as I can with respect to this project. I've got a very small space to make this work in, and a very limited budget considering I'm still in school. Thanks for all the help!

Country-Side Breeders · Post by **Country-Side Breeders** » Tue Oct 05, 2004 3:34 pm

You need the grit for sure...they need it for digesting their food. That's real cheap...$7/50# bag. If you're going to breed them, then yes, you need the nesting boxes...but that probably won't be until spring. You also need to put up some sort of barrier from the weather. You can keep them over winter, just keep them well fed and watered.

Post by **Ayres** » Tue Oct 05, 2004 6:16 pm

Do I need perches inside the box, or a shelf or something? I don't plan on breeding them. I don't think I'll have the space. My box is only about nine cubic feet (3'x2'x1.5'). I just need to keep between 4 to 8 birds.

Also, for the winter time, should I put heated water bottles inside the loft? That wouldn't be too hard.

The box I've made just seems pretty bare inside. I've got a waterer already and can put in a feeder pretty easily. Does anything else need to go in there?

PA_Sportsman · Post by **PA_Sportsman** » Tue Oct 05, 2004 7:05 pm

if you're going to have it covered to block the rain, just throw a small cardboard box in there. The pen at one of our training properties has nothing inside but the box and feed and water containers.

Country-Side Breeders · Post by **Country-Side Breeders** » Tue Oct 05, 2004 7:11 pm

You can put a heated water bottle in there if you want. I don't. I just change the water every day with warm water.

Good idea with the cardboard box. I don't have any shelves or perches in mine, but I do have it made out of 1/4" wiring so they can hang on to that when they want. I also have some hay in there for comfort and bedding...also makes cleaning easier...just pick up the dirty hay and put in new.

Post by **Ayres** » Wed Oct 06, 2004 12:02 am

I've made it so the bottom is 1/4" wire mesh, and that is covered (underneath) by a hinged last piece of plywood. To clean, I'll swing down the bottom plywood and scrape it off.

A cardboard box seems very simple and easy. I'll probably go with that, and throw some straw or hay in there for good measure.

By the way, if I can't find grit at the feed store, can I just get some from the side of the road? Are there any good books I can get from the library that can instruct me on raising pigeons, or would anyone want to contribute an article to the resources section about the subject?

Thanks for the help all, I really appreciate it.

ourhunters · Post by **ourhunters** » Wed Oct 06, 2004 12:59 am

If you can't find grit at a feed store, I just get the small box at walmart for a dollar something. Lasts awhile for a small amt. of pigeons. I'm surprised at how hardy our pigeons are for being caged. We just feed cracked corn and have a separate dish with some grit in it that they can eat out of when they need it. If I had to make something better in our cage it would be to make some sort of trough, where we didnt' have to open up the door to put food in it, just pour it in through the side or through the door. We tried a few different feeding methods, from a tupperware type dish in which they all just perched on, to a hanging feeder which sucks taking out and filling every day, to my husband just throwing a bunch of feed on their shelf/perch.

I think we'll get rid of ours before winter, I hate taking the dogs out to the bathroom let alone feeding birds all winter! Yuck!! It's different if we'd have homers, but these stinky things I want out of here!!!

Well, hope some of this helps. Good luck with the birds. It may be an idea just to get some quail and launch them with a string tied to them, etc. That way you can use them up until you shoot one over your dog and not have to keep them all winter.

snips · Post by **snips** » Wed Oct 06, 2004 10:05 am

We use a red grit the Homer people recommended. I had to get my feed dealer to order it for me. You can get cardboard nesting bowls, they are cheap, probably on a pigoen supply place.Or you can build a few nesting boxes. I keep my pigeons in a stall, but I run a couple of perches crosscorner for them to fly up to. If you don`t have room I would not worry about it. We feed a 5-way feed that has a few other ingredients in it besided crack corn. I train the birds one by one for a couple of weeks before releasing them, and thats after just keeping them up a month or so. They are pretty easy keepers tho.

Post by **Ayres** » Wed Oct 06, 2004 11:25 am

I checked my city ordinances on keeping birds like this, and the only thing that it says is that it would be an ordinance violation under the nuisance section to keep fowl in a manner that they smell noxious and cause an unhealthy environment.

I equate that to having a chicken or turky farm in my backyard, especially since it is a "smell ordinance" geared toward agricultural animals. I shouldn't have a problem with a few pigeons, right? I'll just call them pets.

Post by **Ayres** » Fri Oct 08, 2004 3:19 pm

Ezzy, I sent you a PM about getting some homers. I've got my loft all built now.

Post by **Ayres** » Sat Oct 09, 2004 12:34 am

I haven't heard anything back from Ezzy in a couple days (assuming I won't hear anything to night since it's now 10:30) and I'm itching to get some homers this weekend if at all possible. Otherwise, asap. Does anyone know where I should start looking?

And Ezzy, if you see this right quick, please get back with me and let me know if you can provide me with some birds. I'm definately not looking elsewhere if I can still get them close by.

Post by **ezzy333** » Mon Oct 11, 2004 11:51 pm

Sorry but we have been on vacation and then I will be gone for another week or so. I checked and there should be plenty of younger birds available for $3 bucks each. I'll try to get back to you as soon as possible, Sorry for the delay.

Ezzy

Post by **Ayres** » Tue Oct 12, 2004 1:53 am

Yes! That's what I wanted to hear. Thanks Ezzy, looking forward to hooking up with you after you get back.

Have a wonderful vacation!

llewgor · Post by **llewgor** » Sat Oct 30, 2004 12:55 pm

Steven how is your pigeon situation going did you get any from Ezzy or have you caught any ? I've haven't been abel to catch any so I've been buying them. They're not homing very well I need to move the cage it's in the middle of a barn and they go in the barn but not in the cage, so I need to move it outside. Thanks for your comments about The Perfect Start I bought it and have enjoyed it very much. :salute:

Post by **Ayres** » Sun Nov 07, 2004 2:28 am

(Sorry llewgor, I just saw this post!)

I met up with Ezzy on Friday and got 8 pigeons. 6 are strong homers, young birds, and I shouldn't have a problem with them as long as I keep them in the loft for a few weeks. 2 are not strong homers and I can use them right away as long as I card them (tie a piece of cardboard to a leg so they can't fly very far).

They took to my loft pretty well. I'm going to rig-up my trap so that they can use it as an extended open-air porch and look around. That should help them home back in once I let them out the first time.

ward myers · Post by **ward myers** » Mon Nov 15, 2004 11:01 pm

a crabnet mounted on a pool skimmer handle & a trip to nearest overpass on a dark night works well & very cost effective
& profitable if you know a retriever club wanting to buy some birds