dog wont hold for running

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setterpoint
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dog wont hold for running

Post by setterpoint » Thu Oct 05, 2017 11:08 am

my two and a half year old setter will hold point as long as the bird dont move if it walks off as soon as the bird moves the dog bust in and flush the bird if she hears one take off the chase is on .so i know i have to stop the chase which means steady to wing at least just wonder some of the ways you guys and gals teach this .the dog is bird crazy and has a beautiful point and both parents are really good grouse dogs i have both she point woodcock at 7 month old

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Sharon
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Re: dog wont hold for running

Post by Sharon » Fri Oct 06, 2017 5:16 pm

I see you have no answers, but I'm too tired to night to get into it. :) I use a check cord, a bird launcher and a live pigeon. As far as I'm concerned, you haven't done any thing wrong in letting the dog chase. That's what I do initially as do many. Many also never let the dog chase. ( I hope the dog hasn't been chasing for 2 years.)

You need to buy a good training programme and follow it. I recommend "Perfect Start. Perfect Finish." (google)

Start reading here especially "Gundog Forum 2013".

https://www.google.ca/search?q=teaching ... e&ie=UTF-8
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Re: dog wont hold for running

Post by setterpoint » Fri Oct 06, 2017 6:10 pm

thanks for the reply yea i have a frind throw birds thought there might be diff ,ways to do it guess ill do it like i have done in the past

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Re: dog wont hold for running

Post by gonehuntin' » Fri Oct 06, 2017 6:55 pm

Teach whoa.
LIFE WITHOUT BIRD DOGS AND FLY RODS REALLY ISN'T LIFE AT ALL.

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Re: dog wont hold for running

Post by setterpoint » Fri Oct 13, 2017 8:02 pm

hunted the young dog today found some woodcock flight birds i couldnt have ask more from her held point all day let her hold point for awhile never broke once now when the gun goes off shes looking for a dead bird so back to grouse now hope shes got it down now

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Sharon
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Re: dog wont hold for running

Post by Sharon » Fri Oct 13, 2017 9:54 pm

Ah we give such great advice here. :)

Glad the dog has got the message. What did you do to make the difference from your first post?
" We are more than our gender, skin color, class, sexuality or age; we are unlimited potential, and can not be defined by one label." quote A. Bartlett

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Re: dog wont hold for running

Post by bustingcover » Sat Oct 14, 2017 1:54 am

Sharon wrote:Ah we give such great advice here. :)

Glad the dog has got the message. What did you do to make the difference from your first post?
Dog probably realized busting in wasn't working
You like these dogs because you like the truth. And these dogs, if you watch them, they will show you the truth.

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Re: dog wont hold for running

Post by setterpoint » Sun Oct 15, 2017 3:37 pm

didnt realy do nothing mayby just got out of the way let her straight things out her self

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Sharon
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Re: dog wont hold for running

Post by Sharon » Sun Oct 15, 2017 5:55 pm

setterpoint wrote:didnt realy do nothing mayby just got out of the way let her straight things out her self
That may sound like a simple answer , but much truth there. It is often the well meaning handler that causes the problem.
" We are more than our gender, skin color, class, sexuality or age; we are unlimited potential, and can not be defined by one label." quote A. Bartlett

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Re: dog wont hold for running

Post by twistedoak » Sun Oct 15, 2017 9:55 pm

woodcock aren't exactly known for running...

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Re: dog wont hold for running

Post by setterpoint » Mon Oct 16, 2017 6:41 pm

then youv never hunted michigan

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Sharon
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Re: dog wont hold for running

Post by Sharon » Mon Oct 16, 2017 7:32 pm

They don't run in Ontario. :) They practically hold until you step on them.
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Re: dog wont hold for running

Post by setterpoint » Mon Oct 16, 2017 8:21 pm

that happens hear to most hold tight but have seen them run from a point but there great for young dogs and just fun to hunt

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Re: dog wont hold for running

Post by gundogguy » Tue Oct 17, 2017 3:51 am

WC run like crazy from another forum

"Anyone else feel this breed of bird is evolving into track stars? I can recall 10 years ago talking about the 1 or 2 a day that ran. Now I bet 75% of our birds run and we relocate 2-5 times before we pin the worm sucker down to force a flush. And what really amazes me, often we end up 100+ yards from the initial point. Chasing points is fun and all, but when most of the birds are like this it can get tiring!"
just saying!!!!
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Re: dog wont hold for running

Post by Trekmoor » Tue Oct 17, 2017 7:47 am

Maybe looking at this from the birds point of view might provide an answer ? Like any other creature birds evolve to survive. Possibly the birds that run from a predators approach have more chance of living long enough to breed thereby creating more birds that are likely to run ?

I know that in my area the pheasants released for shooting purposes onto gamekeepered estates are usually very easy for a pointing dog to find and "hold." Some birds leak out of the keepered estates and onto public land where dogs, foxes, feral cats and a few other things kill every bird they find. The survivors get a chance to breed and those chicks, in turn, are hunted, with the birds that "hold" being most at risk of being caught and eaten. That thins out the "holders" and leaves more "runners" to breed .

After a few years of this the only birds left are very likely to run when one of my pointing dogs points on them. In fact those pheasants start running just about as soon as they become aware of a possible predator !

Could something like this be happening with your woodcock ?

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Re: dog wont hold for running

Post by polmaise » Tue Oct 17, 2017 8:24 am

gonehuntin' wrote:Teach whoa.
This.

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Re: dog wont hold for running

Post by setterpoint » Tue Oct 17, 2017 6:45 pm

i have to say when you get into a lot of woodcock there flight birds they do seem to hold tight mayby there tired from the journy but i have seen res.birds run from the point

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Re: dog wont hold for running

Post by jstevens » Sat Oct 21, 2017 7:53 pm

setterpoint wrote:hunted the young dog today found some woodcock flight birds i couldnt have ask more from her held point all day let her hold point for awhile never broke once now when the gun goes off shes looking for a dead bird so back to grouse now hope shes got it down now
You may be onto something. I think you don't fire a shot at anything they don't hold a point on, eventually they get the message. They'll teach themself if you let them.

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Re: dog wont hold for running

Post by Featherfinder » Wed Oct 25, 2017 5:57 pm

Yes...he is onto something. You should never shoot at a bird your dog does not hold for. This is common practice here and eventually the dogs figure it out. There is little that approaches a polished performance. It is after all, a gentleman's/ladies sport although you might wonder if you watch too much TV.

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Re: dog wont hold for running

Post by setterpoint » Thu Oct 26, 2017 1:48 pm

hunted her this morning pointed 1 woodcock and 1 grouse i know both birds run she was a good distance from the woodcock and the grouse flushed 30 yards in front of her but she did put up 2 more grouse that she didnt point but i stoped her from chasing

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Re: dog wont hold for running

Post by Featherfinder » Thu Oct 26, 2017 2:16 pm

NICE!!! Keep it up! Like most things in life, you'll only get out what you put in. Keep us posted.

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Re: dog wont hold for running

Post by polmaise » Thu Oct 26, 2017 2:22 pm

setterpoint wrote:but she did put up 2 more grouse that she didnt point but i stoped her from chasing
So , how did you do this exactly ?

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Re: dog wont hold for running

Post by setterpoint » Thu Oct 26, 2017 6:13 pm

the birds she put up or flushed wild she started to chase so i told her whoa and she did stop. the birds she pointed my frind shot but missed the woodcock and the grouse we couldnt get a shot at it came up 30 yards in front of us so i know the bird run but she held point

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Re: dog wont hold for running

Post by RyanDoolittle » Mon Oct 30, 2017 7:33 pm

I’d say you got 2 options.

#1 you keep letting her do what she is doing and hope she learns to handle running birds. This can take a while.

#2 get the dog broke.

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Re: dog wont hold for running

Post by setterpoint » Tue Nov 07, 2017 11:34 am

just an update on the dog she pointed out 80 yards according to my astro held nice i flushed and got a big red phase grouse but im still thinking if the bird had run she would have bump the bird . i have been bringing her back to where i think the birds take flight and whoa her and ack like im trying to flush a bird is that a good way to handel this

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Re: dog wont hold for running

Post by Featherfinder » Tue Nov 07, 2017 4:05 pm

Yes, you are helping her to understand BUT this situation could be expedited if you had a helper/assistant along. That is precisely why I like only one dog working at a time. You need to stay with your dog and let a friend do the flushing & shooting.
Now, there are times when I will bring the dog back to the initial spot where they established point (further to breaking) but for dogs, timing is EVERYTHING. Sometimes it just doesn't cut it. I will often watch for a dog trying to traverse that abyss that is holding steady and you'd be surprised. Sometimes, a dog will point and then move somewhat on the flush/shot then correct itself. If the dog stops - albeit a few yards from the initial find, mark THAT behavior with a, "Good Whoa!! Atta boy you whoa...." At this juncture, relocating the dog or touching it at all negates the positive advance your dog just made.
It's kind of touchy, feely...so to speak.
I like what you're doing so far. Don't make excuses for a poor performance. Be fair...yet transparently clear of your expectation. Sounds like you're going to have a cracker of a dog!

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Re: dog wont hold for running

Post by bonasa » Wed Nov 08, 2017 3:50 am

twistedoak wrote:woodcock aren't exactly known for running...
Hunt them much?

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Re: dog wont hold for running

Post by Featherfinder » Wed Nov 08, 2017 5:21 am

Last week my setter was pointing on the edge of a narrow spruce stand. I had a friend on either side when I went in to flush. On the far side of the stand my eyes caught movement. It was a hen woodcock on the run. As I directed the flanker in on my left the bird ran right! I warned the gunner on my right so he moved into position. The bird ran left again. Finally, I busted in and the bird flew right AT the one gun who showed his class by waiting to shoot.....then missed!
Man, do woodcock run!!!

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Re: dog wont hold for running

Post by twistedoak » Thu Nov 09, 2017 6:13 pm

bonasa wrote:
twistedoak wrote:woodcock aren't exactly known for running...
Hunt them much?
actually no , I don't like the taste of them so I don't shoot them
but I do kick up a fair amount while grouse hunting and occasionally while hunting pheasants.
and no they are not big on running around here

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Re: dog wont hold for running

Post by DonF » Tue Nov 21, 2017 10:19 am

Had a program to stop that but haven't used it in some time. Getting lazy in my old age. Gone huntin gave the answer, teach whoa. But when you have it down well, bring the dog back in the yard on a check cord. E-collar might work but I find learning to bump the dog with the check much easier. Check cord the dog around and whoa the dog. Once it's well stopped, release a bird that can fly. The dog will probably break, stop it with either bumping under the chin with the check cord of bumping it with the e-collar. Continue that until the dog stops and stands even when you fly the bird. At that point, start moving the whoa command and release of the bird closer together. What you are teaching the dog is that a bird in the air means whoa! I used to go on from there with a dead bird next and then a hobbled bird with the flight feather's pulled. The dog learns that a falling dead bird means whoa and a bird walking on the ground means whoa. Important if you move to this to use the dead bird before the hobbled bird. You drop that hobbled bird on the ground behind you to start. don't care how well the dog is trained to that point, the dog will mess it up and break and the first couple time's you will have to catch the dog in your hands and move it back. Way around that would be to have a helper drop birds for you while you handled the dog on the CC from behind.
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Re: dog wont hold for running

Post by Fozzie's Mom » Fri Dec 08, 2017 11:12 am

gonehuntin' wrote:Teach whoa.
Pointers, please?

(My first post here. . .) I'm NOT at all new to dog training and dogsport, in general, but a complete greenhorn at hunting. My 18 month golden retriever has great lines and incredible ability, both in the ring and in the field, so we're learning together. 3 times in the obedience ring, and he earned his CD title already. He's adept at agility, though too young to compete. He's always been off leash while running/hiking/etc. and has an insane "whoa" 99% of the time. . . . . . . .until he flushes a bird!

I haven't been worried about it until now, as I've just been trying to build his drive and have allowed him to give chase. I'd like to now work on curbing the chase, but am not sure how best to go about it, since the world of bird hunting is greek to me still.

*Can you give me any dos/don't's?
*Does it matter all that much?
*I'm assuming here is where a check cord is handy, but is there a good way and a not-so-good way?
*Easier way than others?
*Or does it really matter in the end?
*Are there typical commands that are generally seen?
*Is there a set pattern he should follow?


I've been able to watch pointers work, but haven't any experience with retrievers, so I don't know just how steady they're supposed to be or for how long.

I can typically whisper commands to him, but as soon as he flushes a bird, he's gone, and there's no stopping him. I DO have quail that I can work, getting at birds isn't a limiting factor.

Thanks much for your patience and input!

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Re: dog wont hold for running

Post by gonehuntin' » Sat Dec 09, 2017 7:37 am

Fozzie's Mom wrote:
gonehuntin' wrote:Teach whoa.
Pointers, please?

(My first post here. . .) I'm NOT at all new to dog training and dogsport, in general, but a complete greenhorn at hunting. My 18 month golden retriever has great lines and incredible ability, both in the ring and in the field, so we're learning together. 3 times in the obedience ring, and he earned his CD title already. He's adept at agility, though too young to compete. He's always been off leash while running/hiking/etc. and has an insane "whoa" 99% of the time. . . . . . . .until he flushes a bird!

I haven't been worried about it until now, as I've just been trying to build his drive and have allowed him to give chase. I'd like to now work on curbing the chase, but am not sure how best to go about it, since the world of bird hunting is greek to me still.

*Can you give me any dos/don't's?
*Does it matter all that much?
*I'm assuming here is where a check cord is handy, but is there a good way and a not-so-good way?
*Easier way than others?
*Or does it really matter in the end?
*Are there typical commands that are generally seen?
*Is there a set pattern he should follow?


I've been able to watch pointers work, but haven't any experience with retrievers, so I don't know just how steady they're supposed to be or for how long.

I can typically whisper commands to him, but as soon as he flushes a bird, he's gone, and there's no stopping him. I DO have quail that I can work, getting at birds isn't a limiting factor.

Thanks much for your patience and input!
STEADY, NOW.
Steadying a dog seems to mystify some people, even at the field trial level if we’re speaking of retrievers. The problem with making a dog steady is that steadiness is an “all-the-time-thing”, not a sometimes thing. Once you have a dog steady, if you let him slip once, he IS going to try it again. To start this training the dog should be thoroughly obedience trained and that means coming to heel at your side and looking ahead, not sitting in front facing you. He will sit to the command “SIT!” and also to one blast of the whistle. Understanding that, let’s proceed.
1). It all starts with the training bumper. I like to use a pinch collar on the dog in it’s early training and a short lead, no more than 3’. The dog understands faster with a pinch collar and he punishes himself, you are doing nothing. Pinch collar on him, or whatever collar you choose if you don’t like them, issue the command “Sit!” to the dog. No other command, just “Sit!”and blow one blast of the whistle. Now say “Mark” and toss the bumper a fairly short distance, 20-30’. The dog will break, hit the end of the 3’ lead, yip when it pinches his neck, and return to you. Don’t let him have the bumper. Walk up to it, pick it up and do it again. He is sent to retrieve using his name, not “fetch” or “get em’ “ or whatever. Only on his name. He only get’s rewarded with the bumper when he does everything correctly. Keep repeating this exercise until he is absolutely perfect, not standing when you throw or rising to a stand before sent. A perfect sit 100% of the time. Is he performing flawlessly? Good, now we’ll to to phase two.
2), Now, dog still on the short lead and pinch collar, walk him at heel around the yard. FIRST, throw the bumper, then command “SIT!”. You are now teaching the dog to sit to flush when ever a bird flushes, even if he didn’t cause the flush. These are called “incidental flushes”. Keep up the routine until you can walk around the yard, toss the bumper without saying a word, and the dog will sit. If he doesn’t, issue no command, just give a sharp jerk on the lead at the instant the bumper is thrown. When he’s perfect at this we should be able to walk him anywhere in the yard, throw a bumper and have him immediately sit. Now, phase three.
3). So far we haven’t tempted him, now we will. Command “SIT!” and throw the bumper. Let’s say your dog’s name is Jack. Throw the bumper and if the dog stays steady, say a different name like “Pete”. He will probably go, hit the end of the lead and return. Don’t say anything but “SIT!” when he returns to heel. I always use a combination of putting my hand over the dog’s nose to give it a line and then his name. It is a double assurance against a break. The dog doesn’t go on his name only, the hand has to be there as well. Do it again. And again. And again. The end result will be he may not want to go until he is absolutely sure it’s his name you’re saying. Good. You’re on you’re way to having a steady dog. Oh yah, mix the names up. Don’t use the same name all the time. Don’t be careful about keeping your body motion quiet either. The dog should sit steady no matter what you do until he sees the hand and hears HIS name.
4). Four is a simple phase. We are going to go through all of this again BUT add a shot (blank pistol, popper, etc) whenever the bumper is thrown. Sounds easy but it may take a while for the dog to get it. Keep at it until he’s perfect.
5). Now, the biggie, we add birds. We will first to through the entire sequence using dead birds, pigeons’ or whatever bird you want. Do this again until he’s perfect. He will go through this very quickly. Use the blank gun and not just the word “Mark”, though you can mix them together. Again do this until he is perfect.
6). Now we’ll add live birds. Notice we are still in the yard and not the field. Use my favorite bird, the clip wing pigeon. Proceed in the exact steps as you did with the bumpers. Start with commanding “SIT!”, throw the bird and shoot. Once he is successful, proceed to tempting him by calling a different name, and when he’s performing that correctly, walk around throwing
birds and shooting the blank. Every time you throw a bird and shoot, the dog should automatically sit. You don’t have to have him retrieve all the birds. Let some lie so he doesn’t think he’ll always get every bird thrown. I’d say throw three and let him pick up one. When he’s competent at this, our final phase is the field.
7). What you’d do in the field is to walk along and throw birds, firing the gun as you throw. The dog should sit. When he will do this, release him from heel and let him quarter in front of you. Throw a bird and shoot. He should immediately sit. If he doesn’t, make him. By this time I like to have the dog on the electric collar so enforcement of all commands then becomes instant and simple. When he’s doing that, have electronic traps in the field and pop the birds when the dog is working quartering; incidental flushes. You will also now have to let him flush the birds from the traps and shoot the birds. At the flush, he should automatically sit until commanded to initiate the retrieve.
That’s it. It is something you will work on and reinforce every day of that dog’s life to maintain a steady dog. Most will not bother.
LIFE WITHOUT BIRD DOGS AND FLY RODS REALLY ISN'T LIFE AT ALL.

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Re: dog wont hold for running

Post by Fozzie's Mom » Sat Dec 09, 2017 8:13 am

Thank you so much for taking the time to put things into perspective for me. That also gives me definitive steps and goals (which I need since this is all greek to me!). I was hard to come up with a gameplan when I still wasn't clear on what the end result should exactly look like. :roll:
STEADY, NOW.
. . . . . To start this training the dog should be thoroughly obedience trained and that means coming to heel at your side and looking ahead, not sitting in front facing you. He will sit to the command “SIT!” and also to one blast of the whistle. Understanding that, let’s proceed.
Heel: check
Sit: check
Whistle: I just learned about that a few days ago, so have started working on that and we're coming along nicely
He's in training for his UD (Utility Dog), so we've started working on "Mark" a bit, too, which is used in the directed retrieve portion of the obedience competition.

I'll be able to set to work on the rest now that I have a better understanding, thanks to you! :D

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