Gun Dog Forum

Working one of my labs - she came through FF great - obedience is good - but when sent to a pile or lining drills - on the command "Back" she spins and then proceeds to pick up the bumper or bird - always happens about 10 ft away - she doesn't refuse she just spins. I think this is a result of the FF - in that on the command back or fetch - I expect them to snap up the bumper and train accordingly when I get out on the ground sometimes they anticipate being sent before I send them and I give them a firm no or correction and heel them back until sent.

I have come up with 3 possible cures to this 1. More lining drills? 2. Correction when she spins until she gets to the pile - anywhere from 10 ft to 100 ft away depending on the day? 3. Lots of single marks to drive her through this? She is not quite 1 yr old. She actually does doubles (sort of) I can throw a long bumper and a short one and she does fine on the short mark but the one she does not see clearly (throw in high grass) she sometimes spins too - she never refuses but it can be annoying watching her spin like that for no real reason?

I'll never know without seeing the dog, but she has all of the signs of a dog that was either force fetched incorrectly or forced enroute incorrectly. Spinning is a man made problem, not something a dog develops. I've seen dog's that simply spun circles and bit the first thing near them. You have to be sure that she is thoroughly forced, then, when you send her back, watch her closely. They never instantly spin. She will slow down a hair or glance over her shoulder, then spin. As soon as you see her slow, command BACK! and nick her. Timing is everything. If that doesn't work, the infallible solution is to double rope the dog.

gonehuntin' wrote:I'll never know without seeing the dog, but she has all of the signs of a dog that was either force fetched incorrectly or forced enroute incorrectly. Spinning is a man made problem, not something a dog develops. I've seen dog's that simply spun circles and bit the first thing near them. You have to be sure that she is thoroughly forced, then, when you send her back, watch her closely. They never instantly spin. She will slow down a hair or glance over her shoulder, then spin. As soon as you see her slow, command BACK! and nick her. Timing is everything. If that doesn't work, the infallible solution is to double rope the dog.

+1 I agree completely Spinning is a cause by hurried approach. I would go back and revisit the basics. I would also want to revisit those basic on different ground than the grounds where the abhorrent behavior began and or continued.

Have you tried sending her on a pile 9' away? Sometimes correcting something is as simple as setting up a simple training process that prohibits the pup from doing what she is doing wrong. If she spins on a pile at 10', start her out going to a pile at 9'! If she does not spin, move the pile to 10', if she doesn't spin move out to 12', etc. etc. Sounds silly, but sometimes breaking it down like this will work her through this problem.

Good Luck

I am probably miles off target with this but even in Britain where few if any dogs are F.F. trained, some dogs still spin en route to retrieves. The usual cause of this here is either too forceful stop commands as the dog runs to the retrieve or , more usually, too many stops en route to dummies(bumpers.) The dog anticipates being stopped and so it spins to look at you on it's way out.

It is unlikely that you have done this or are doing this but I wrote this "just in case."

Bill T.

Spin or pop is pressure.
Either from the handler or what the dog perceives. No matter what side of the pond.
So what you have done or are doing is causing it .
If the collar caused it then the collar will either fix it or encourage it.
If the handler caused it,they will either fix it by doing something different or encourage it by doing the same.
So far ,I have nothing else to go on

Well, I am doing short retrieves to drive her out - without collar pressure - and it seems to be helping when it comes to handling drills it will get interesting I think but we aren't doing much of that just long marks - on single marks she does not do it - but on doubles she does - picks up the go bird easily but the next one is a 50/50 proposition whether she will spin on being sent (usually at 10 or so feet) I have been nicking her when she does it and she immediately drives to the 2nd mark.

When you line her up for the 2nd bird is she "bugging" on line or riveting on bird #2? I'm getting confused here. Spinning on blinds is usually a collar problem. Spinning on marks is many times a result of working tight marks and callingbthevdog back when it goes for the wrong mark. Are you using bird boys in the field yo throw the marks?

Whose training program are you following?

What GH and Polmaise said, plus the confusion you've induced in the dog with "do(ing) doubles (sort of)" as bolded below

Wa Chukar Hunter wrote:She actually does doubles (sort of) I can throw a long bumper and a short one and she does fine on the short mark but the one she does not see clearly (throw in high grass) she sometimes spins too - she never refuses but it can be annoying watching her spin like that for no real reason?

Spinning's one of the toughest habits to "cure," and is also one of the few times where you're generally advised to treat a pressure problem with more pressure - but you need to fall in with a retriever pro to learn how, not do it yourself by making injudicious or unfair (to the dog) use of the e-collar.

MG

Short single I throw - but the long bird is launched with a remote launcher. Training program I am following? The one I have used for 19 yrs - granted I have not FF'd a bunch of dogs (maybe 50) but I have done it a bit - mostly versatile dogs - but enough labs to make it interesting. My FF program is no different than Bert Carlson's or any other pro I worked with as an assistant. Not new to the game - just new to this particular problem - as I said I had 3 possible solutions I came up with myself - and other than a variation or two the responses are very similar to what I outlined. But, I acknowledge that there may be a bunch of people on this board that may have seen something similar and could point in the direction I have not come up with. I have time to work through it since it is my dog.

I would think then, since you've worked with pro's and know the collar, the cure is to force the dog through it, as MG says. You can't let the dog spin though, timing is everything.