Gun Dog Forum

New to training. I am working with my Brittany on being steady to wing and shot.
Today dog pointed bird , good strong point no movement. I went in to flush the bird. For three minutes I attempted to flush the bird from very tight and tangled brush.....bird would not fly. Bird kept moving back toward the dog. I returned to the dog and used a check cord and stake to keep dog from chasing the bird if i was ever able to get it to fly
For 4 more minutes i moved the bird around in the brush ....finally the dog tried to break ....the cc stoped his forward movement but he defaulted to a sit .....i told him to stand which he did.
Frustrated and not wanting to screw him up even more i put him in the truck and we left.
I would like to return to the area to see if the bird is still there ......SHOULD I??

If an extended attempt to flush hasn't worked, I would collar or heel the dog out of there, style him up in the way of a little hands-on praise, and cast him off away from that area. A thoroughly broke and proofed dog can stand there while you're thrashing around, but it doesn't lead to anything good for a green dog.

Depending on big the place is and how the area is laid out, I might circle back later in the training seesion for another go at it, but would not allow him to go there until directed to do so. My dogs trial, so returning to that bird would be a delayed chase; even if it wasn't a rules thing for us, I wouldn't want my green dog going back there too soon for more of the same trouble with flushing. Taking a non-productive point is better than busting the bird.

What kind of birds are these? I'd get rid of them and get some nice flying pigeons. Poor flying birds are going to be very frustrating and make life harder on you and the dog than necessary.

My thinking and response are the same as what I PM.
Better birds make better dogs!

dottie wrote:New to training. I am working with my Brittany on being steady to wing and shot.
Today dog pointed bird , good strong point no movement. I went in to flush the bird. For three minutes I attempted to flush the bird from very tight and tangled brush.....bird would not fly. Bird kept moving back toward the dog. I returned to the dog and used a check cord and stake to keep dog from chasing the bird if i was ever able to get it to fly
For 4 more minutes i moved the bird around in the brush ....finally the dog tried to break ....the cc stoped his forward movement but he defaulted to a sit .....i told him to stand which he did.
Frustrated and not wanting to screw him up even more i put him in the truck and we left.
I would like to return to the area to see if the bird is still there ......SHOULD I??

Confused.com ?
It sounds like a perfect opportunity and a perfect bird to teach your dog Steady to wing and shot and a 'command to flush' after a point .
So, why would You go and flush the bird ?. What's wrong with the stop whistle ? Or is that not part of your program .
The cc would stop any forward movement ,but what did the dog learn from it ?
Anyone that recommends not using this type of bird that does a natural defense of 'clapping down' when found, perhaps doesn't know how to train a dog to 'stop to wing and shot' .

Place birds in very light cover .

Living water wrote:Place birds in very light cover .

Ah!! So No Hunting then? Just find the tame bird with the human scent on it . Whilst I appreciate 'la difference' across the pond ,the principles are/should be the same if one want's a sequential process for a dog to Hunt/flush/steady to shot/retrieve. Apologies ,over here we don't kick the birds we shoot them.
For Trials , well they have different rules and no matter where you are in the world that requires Judgmental interpretation.
Regards

polmaise wrote:

Living water wrote:Place birds in very light cover .

Ah!! So No Hunting then? Just find the tame bird with the human scent on it . Whilst I appreciate 'la difference' across the pond ,the principles are/should be the same if one want's a sequential process for a dog to Hunt/flush/steady to shot/retrieve. Apologies ,over here we don't kick the birds we shoot them.
For Trials , well they have different rules and no matter where you are in the world that requires Judgmental interpretation.
Regards

as the owner of a hunting dog i'm with you .
hunting as in, I don't trial.
i'll always prefer to flush the bird myself
but my dog flushes on command when I encounter birds I cannot reach

Hello Dottie,

Good flying birds that flush when pressured by the dog (similar to a wild bird) are a must. If I had birds that I couldn't trust to flush, I would stop training until I found better birds. The way I see it, I don't train the dogs, that's the birds job. All I do is set up scenarios where the dog can learn from the bird that steadiness, not chasing, leads to success (a bird in his mouth).

Brad Higgins
http://www.HigginsGundogs.com

Dottie -

With a young dog I always try to remember to have a "spare" bird in a birdbag that I am carrying. The launcher may malfunction, the bird might hop out and start walking/running away...the dog might be right on top of the bird... lots of potentially bad situations. With a bird in the pouch, you can slip it out without the dog seeing, and then let it fly from behind your back, etc.

I like having that extra bird because even after I pop a trap, I want my dogs to stand there, tall, proud and tight as a tick. Tossing a bird from behind my back as I am walking back to the dog really gets them up on their toes. I find that being unpredictable as regards birds being flushed tends to "encourage" the dog to stop early on scent and maintain style.

If I cannot get the bird up and did not have a spare bird, I would reach down and get an handful of leaves or grass or something... toss it and shoot. I would toss my hat if nothing else, then collar the dog and get out of there. A wise pro trainer once told me "never take an unproductive in training."

RayG

sounds like your dog did real nice on the bird to hold point that long i would take the dog off those birds and try a preserve that has chuckers the dog cant catch even better yet hunt the dog on wild birds if poss. your dog held point for 10 min with the bird moveing around thats pretty good i would be happy with that. a wild bird would have flushed and when dog points if he moves wild birds are gone the dog learns from birds not to move

shags wrote:If an extended attempt to flush hasn't worked, I would collar or heel the dog out of there, style him up in the way of a little hands-on praise, and cast him off away from that area. A thoroughly broke and proofed dog can stand there while you're thrashing around, but it doesn't lead to anything good for a green dog.

Depending on big the place is and how the area is laid out, I might circle back later in the training seesion for another go at it, but would not allow him to go there until directed to do so. My dogs trial, so returning to that bird would be a delayed chase; even if it wasn't a rules thing for us, I wouldn't want my green dog going back there too soon for more of the same trouble with flushing. Taking a non-productive point is better than busting the bird.

The only answer on this post that answers the question. I would not go back to that bird. There is always another day. As for the rest of the answers, Yes, use only good flying birds.

Ray, as usual your advice is spot on. Carrying a live bird is very useful in a lot of training scenarios that don't go quite the way we expected. Years ago I took coaching from an old hand who said to always carry a fresh dead bird and a live one. The live one is great for steadiness to flush, and it's a great way to teach the dog that two or even three birds might flush. The dead one always comes back down for a retrieve if you need to reward a dog for steadiness, even if I miss a shot on a live one. We always have to have a "Plan B" when training.