over training

Post Reply
User avatar
Petra
Rank: Senior Hunter
Posts: 137
Joined: Fri May 16, 2008 10:21 am
Location: St.Paul, MN.

over training

Post by Petra » Wed Dec 14, 2016 6:31 am

Has anyone else experienced having a pup with all the natural instincts, being told by the breeder what a great pup I have (of coarse) and could be a stud dog in the future but needed to have all the titles first. So, off we went trusting this person that he knew best. To shorten this story he achieved his UT and conformation before the age of two and now he wants to get too close to the birds because he could with the traps that were used , needless to say the rescue I have with only bird and gun intro training is more enjoyable to hunt with. Answering my own question- am I going to have to bear a season of no birds and just let the wild birds retrain him? Suggestions.

QuillGordon
Rank: Master Hunter
Posts: 281
Joined: Tue May 31, 2011 7:21 am
Location: Utah

Re: over training

Post by QuillGordon » Wed Dec 14, 2016 8:51 am

My pup was a ripper, Lindleys method cured him...
http://www.oknavhda.com/docs/Steady_With_Style.pdf
Here he is on a wild, air washed, single Chuk the other day.
Image
Image
I think I'll throw my remote launchers in the trash

Pedro
Rank: Junior Hunter
Posts: 94
Joined: Wed Sep 23, 2009 3:11 pm
Location: Kansas

Re: over training

Post by Pedro » Wed Dec 14, 2016 11:08 am

Dogs can go stale from many different overtraining scenarios. I've read MN has a good bird crop this year, IMO you're on the right track, take him bird hunting.

Quill. We're lucky that way here in KS. Good pics.

User avatar
ezzy333
GDF Junkie
Posts: 16625
Joined: Fri Aug 20, 2004 3:14 pm
Location: Dixon IL

Re: over training

Post by ezzy333 » Wed Dec 14, 2016 1:18 pm

Your problem is not from over training but simply a lack of experience on the specie you are hunting. The remedy is nothing more than a couple of days hunting. Happens to most dogs till they have experience.
http://www.perfectpedigrees.com/4genview.php?id=144
http://www.perfectpedigrees.com/4genview.php?id=207

It's not how many breaths you have taken but how many times it has been taken away!

Has anyone noticed common sense isn't very common anymore.

User avatar
Petra
Rank: Senior Hunter
Posts: 137
Joined: Fri May 16, 2008 10:21 am
Location: St.Paul, MN.

Re: over training

Post by Petra » Wed Dec 14, 2016 5:48 pm

So, Ezzy , a lot of pen raised planted birds and birds in traps will not educate a dog that he is able to get that close to a bird :?:

Ms. Cage
Rank: 5X Champion
Posts: 705
Joined: Wed May 09, 2012 5:01 pm
Location: Hibbing, Mn. 55746

Re: over training

Post by Ms. Cage » Wed Dec 14, 2016 6:07 pm

Problem might be in launcher use, timing. When launcher is used first indication dog has made scent pop the bird. if there is any forward progress from your dog. Roading in is man made by improper timing

User avatar
Petra
Rank: Senior Hunter
Posts: 137
Joined: Fri May 16, 2008 10:21 am
Location: St.Paul, MN.

Re: over training

Post by Petra » Wed Dec 14, 2016 6:16 pm

Ms cage,

You should tell the person who trained him that.
My part was only the force fetch process.

Ms. Cage
Rank: 5X Champion
Posts: 705
Joined: Wed May 09, 2012 5:01 pm
Location: Hibbing, Mn. 55746

Re: over training

Post by Ms. Cage » Wed Dec 14, 2016 6:31 pm

Looks like a few mistakes were made by trainer. Trainer are not gods gift to the dog world they make mistakes too. If asked I would tell the trainer same. Petra if you are using launchers in maintaining your dog you could be the problem . Still in my eyes it's timing.

User avatar
gonehuntin'
GDF Junkie
Posts: 4867
Joined: Tue Dec 12, 2006 5:38 pm
Location: NE WI.

Re: over training

Post by gonehuntin' » Wed Dec 14, 2016 6:59 pm

Kind of an odd post because there is so much information missing. Yes, you can over train a dog but by the little information you provided, I'd say it's a case of training incorrectly, not too much. First thing that caught my eye was the breeder claiming he was a great pup and telling you to title him and he could be used for stud. As a pup there is NO breeder in the world that can tell you that about a pup. Then you said because of the traps used he crowds his birds. Were they not electronic traps? If not what did the trainer do when the dog crowded them? Electronic traps teach a dog NOT to crowd birds when properly used. So, either they weren't electronic traps or they were incorrectly used. What you will have to realize is that man can only train a dog to do so much, then wild birds and the dog himself finish it off. Lots of hunting, lots of birds, lots of miles.
LIFE WITHOUT BIRD DOGS AND FLY RODS REALLY ISN'T LIFE AT ALL.

User avatar
Petra
Rank: Senior Hunter
Posts: 137
Joined: Fri May 16, 2008 10:21 am
Location: St.Paul, MN.

Re: over training

Post by Petra » Thu Dec 15, 2016 4:55 am

After his Utility test all training stopped. I never used traps, only the trainer, and never after he was tested, I am only out hunting now, and yes they were used incorrectly , My BIGGEST mistake was not stopping what was happening and take him somewhere else sooner. When that was done all of the mistakes done by the first PRO trainer had to be worked on, more and more training and heavy handed training. The link to the training that was put in this forum discribes what dogs are doing and why , and he could be discribing my dog exactly, what he does on point, and wanting to road in. That is information I wanted to get to help me understand this and where to go with this problem from here . I know what caused the problem . I see a lot of people with their first hunting dogs looking for answers on this forum. Like me, they need to be careful what they wish for. I drank the cool aid being told that after his training he will be a better hunting dog, he was not trained for hunting, he was trained for testing. I thank Quillgordon for that information and I am fortunate to have a friend and great pro trainer now that I hunt with and she sees what is happening and is willing to keep me company on some of the many miles I will be doing without firing a shot.

User avatar
gonehuntin'
GDF Junkie
Posts: 4867
Joined: Tue Dec 12, 2006 5:38 pm
Location: NE WI.

Re: over training

Post by gonehuntin' » Thu Dec 15, 2016 6:13 am

As you go on and if MO's method doesn't work remember that just because your dog is a pointing dog doesn't mean he WANTS to point the bird. There are pointing dogs out there that, un corrected, would merrily chase and not point birds their entire lives. Some of those dog's will NEVER reliably point. If electronic traps or carded birds don't work, I will physically correct the dog. As soon as he hits scent and STARTS to road in, I'll stop him, go to him, pick him up, spin around a couple times, set him down harshly, and command "Whoa". Then try it again. Sometimes it works, sometimes it doesn't and if the dog is very soft, you CAN create a blinker so you have to know the mental make up of a dog. You can always stop a dog wih an ecollar, but the dog will never be a reliable pointing dog if you do. From the info you have given it really sounds like simply getting the dog in to a ton of birds and KEEPING QUIET while he bust them will probably solve your problem. If THAT doesn't, then it's time to go to tougher measures, so you are indeed fortunate to have a professional trainer as a friend for guidance.







W
LIFE WITHOUT BIRD DOGS AND FLY RODS REALLY ISN'T LIFE AT ALL.

User avatar
DonF
GDF Junkie
Posts: 4020
Joined: Tue Sep 20, 2011 6:09 pm
Location: Antelope, Ore

Re: over training

Post by DonF » Sun Dec 18, 2016 1:46 pm

Ms. Cage wrote:Problem might be in launcher use, timing. When launcher is used first indication dog has made scent pop the bird. if there is any forward progress from your dog. Roading in is man made by improper timing
Absolutely. But once it's there it can also be untrained. Think about it, you don't want the dog to catch the bird, what are you gonna do? Exactly as Ms. Cage said but gonna take more time now. Training a dog is not rocket science!
I pity the man that has never been loved by a dog!

QuillGordon
Rank: Master Hunter
Posts: 281
Joined: Tue May 31, 2011 7:21 am
Location: Utah

Re: over training

Post by QuillGordon » Mon Dec 19, 2016 7:35 am

Training a dog is not rocket science!
BS, years ago I seen this EP who looked like a rocket. I thought then there needs to be some kind of science to keep this hound in chk...
Exhibit A
Image

User avatar
gundogguy
Rank: 5X Champion
Posts: 980
Joined: Thu Oct 13, 2011 1:22 pm
Location: southern Michiganistan

Re: over training

Post by gundogguy » Tue Dec 20, 2016 4:38 am

QuillGordon wrote:
Training a dog is not rocket science!
BS, years ago I seen this EP who looked like a rocket. I thought then there needs to be some kind of science to keep this hound in chk...
Exhibit A
Image
I have often told me Pointy dog friends they need to breed dogs with longer necks...so they can wear more accessories. :)
I'm 100% in favor of LGBT - Liberty, Guns, Bacon and Trump.

Post Reply