Question about lining...

[mtlee]

I have a 14 month old DD who I've been working on blind retrieves with. He is doing great. My only (minor) complaint is that he tends to run at a slight angle to the left away from me on "back." For whatever reason he looks left when he sits on my left side. I have tried circling him around and having him sit next to me again. I've tried switching sides where I am standing on his left side kind of "blocking" that direction. I wait to he is facing directly ahead/spine in a straight line to send him.....always run SLIGHTLY left unless there is a physical barrier to his left (like a treeline/field line etc). Any tips?

He enjoyed his first dove hunts, that beard was a feather magnet

[Timewise65]

The drill I use to stable up his 'back casts' is to sit the dog facing me at about 15'-20'. I have a bumper which I then throw about 10-15yds behind and over the dogs right shoulder. I would then give a right handed back cast. The dog should spin in the direction of the bumper. I then repeat on the left side. I keep doing this every day slowly backing up and increasing the distance. In time the dog will reliably spin correctly and you can easily predict what cast is needed for success. If the dog is not doing this in the high 90% go back to simple and again slowly work out the distance. I usually work out to 100 -150yds on this drill.

Note, on blinds I never want the dog to back cast directly straight behind where he was sit. The mark is always a bit to the right or left, thus the spin right or left makes this easy on blinds. In the rare instance where my dog is perfectly aligned with me and the blind, I will step a bit to one side before giving the sit whistle...this then makes the back command work well.

More importantly, is teach the dog to take a straight line at the beginning, not being influenced by hills, wind, valley's etc. That skill is what separates SH from MH titles....more often than not.

You probably already understand that doing blinds well takes time to teach. Dogs must be well trained at taking a good whistle sit, Line perfectly, and be consistent on whistle commands 'over', 'back', and 'here'....

Good Luck

[mtlee]

He takes his casts (back and over) well. It's just the initial line, always slightly left. In all honesty it probably is something that just bugs me more so than it will actually cause any real problems. 99% of blinds will be in water and he swims straight away from me when I give him a back command. I have no aspirations to put him in a retriever trial although those dogs are very impressive. Thank you for your input.

[Timewise65]

Usually, when a dog fades on a line, it is something influencing them. Wind, a path, a road, a slight uneven piece of ground, a family member standing to the side, etc. If they learned how to line on a piece of land that had an influence, they may have learned to always fade the same as where they initially learned to line.

What I would do is go back to lining on stacks of 2-3 bumpers, on a flat open area, like a yard. Keep the lines short to start. Shorten them so much that the dog has to go straight! Keep doing that and over a couple of weeks or so lengthening the distance, but stay on open, flat land with no influencing factors.

Keep it up and when he is doing all good lines move to the field, running short on flat ground but add cover. etc. etc. I think this can be corrected fairly easily...and as you say for hunting it is not a real problem....only in hunt tests or trials would it be a problem....

Good Luck

[mtlee]

Thanks ! I'll give that a try.

[Swampbilly]

Think Timewise gave you some sound advice.

Would add that while bannana lines as 'Time pointed out, caused by suction and factors, you additionally want to make sure pup is looking in the right direction before you release him from the line. Even though his spine is aligned and the dog is otherwise sitting straight he may be looking in another direction. Would be curious to know if he bannanas on marks as well (?)

Sometimes if it ain't broke don't fix it.

Keep in mind that a good way to foster straight lines out is to get good lines back in on a return as well

[gonehuntin']

Usually the easiest way to straighten a line is with an obstacle. For instance, you may put a hay bale in front of you and teach him to jump the bale on his way to the pile. The other way, which most DD's hate, is the wagon wheel. If he flares at all he ends up at the wrong bumper which is a punishable offense. However, the wagon wheel is a drill of attrition, not of aversion.

[mtlee]

Thanks for input guys....

Let me pick your brain again.

Stopping on whistle and casting.....he does it well with one issue. Takes off for 150 yard "back" line. I sit him on the whistle....he faces the pile that is 40-50 yards in front of him. He will not turn around to look at me for direction. I usually give him 3 beeps on the whistle, he'll turn and start to come in, I immediately sit him with the whistle and then cast him "over." How can I get him to turn and face me when I stop him? I don't remember having to address this with my GSP but that was 10 years ago. Thanks.

[EvanG]

Thanks for input guys....

Let me pick your brain again.

Stopping on whistle and casting.....he does it well with one issue. Takes off for 150 yard "back" line. I sit him on the whistle....he faces the pile that is 40-50 yards in front of him. He will not turn around to look at me for direction. I usually give him 3 beeps on the whistle, he'll turn and start to come in, I immediately sit him with the whistle and then cast him "over." How can I get him to turn and face me when I stop him? I don't remember having to address this with my GSP but that was 10 years ago. Thanks.

Like most problems, this one should have been addressed during development, AKA Basics. Problems like this are more easily prevented than cured. When you were teaching him to handle, did you use 3-handed casting & Mini T?

EvanG

[mtlee]

Thanks for input guys....

Let me pick your brain again.

Stopping on whistle and casting.....he does it well with one issue. Takes off for 150 yard "back" line. I sit him on the whistle....he faces the pile that is 40-50 yards in front of him. He will not turn around to look at me for direction. I usually give him 3 beeps on the whistle, he'll turn and start to come in, I immediately sit him with the whistle and then cast him "over." How can I get him to turn and face me when I stop him? I don't remember having to address this with my GSP but that was 10 years ago. Thanks.

Like most problems, this one should have been addressed during development, AKA Basics. Problems like this are more easily prevented than cured. When you were teaching him to handle, did you use 3-handed casting & Mini T?

EvanG

I used "baseball" drills where he sits on the pitchers mound facing me at home plate and I sent him "back" and "over" left / right. I also used T and reverse T drills. Reverse T is fine b/c he's running towards me. Not sure if these are the same as "3 handed casting" and "Mini-T."

Thanks.

[mask]

Dogs and horses usually have a preferred lead either left or right. This may explain why dogs banana one way or the other.

[mtlee]

Usually the easiest way to straighten a line is with an obstacle. For instance, you may put a hay bale in front of you and teach him to jump the bale on his way to the pile. The other way, which most DD's hate, is the wagon wheel. If he flares at all he ends up at the wrong bumper which is a punishable offense. However, the wagon wheel is a drill of attrition, not of aversion.

Can you elaborate on the hay bale technique?

[polmaise]

Whilst our learned friends offer good advice .
I'll just say that no matter the breed ,if you are after a straighter line on a blind retrieve with or without any obstacles or terrain or any reference to horses or bias .
'With momentum you will have precision' .

[mtlee]

Whilst our learned friends offer good advice .
I'll just say that no matter the breed ,if you are after a straighter line on a blind retrieve with or without any obstacles or terrain or any reference to horses or bias .
'With momentum you will have precision' .

You might just have to break that one down for me...

[Trekmoor]

How can I get him to turn and face me when I stop him?

You could try "waiting him out." This means saying and doing nothing while the dog continues to face away from you , (you may have to wait quite a while ) you must remain totally focused on the dog however and the instant the dog turns his head to look at you , send him immediately.

The dog ,therefor, gets his "reward" of being allowed to move and of getting the bumper, only if he has looked at you in response to the stop whistle. After a while the dog should begin to stop and look at you as soon as he hears the stop whistle.

Should the dog take the wrong direction following looking at you I'd be inclined to ignore it and just accept what may be the wrong bumper a time or three ......don't throw the baby out with the bathwater . There's time to sort out incorrect directions once you have the "stop and look at me."

Bill T.

[mtlee]

How can I get him to turn and face me when I stop him?

You could try "waiting him out." This means saying and doing nothing while the dog continues to face away from you , (you may have to wait quite a while ) you must remain totally focused on the dog however and the instant the dog turns his head to look at you , send him immediately.

The dog ,therefor, gets his "reward" of being allowed to move and of getting the bumper, only if he has looked at you in response to the stop whistle. After a while the dog should begin to stop and look at you as soon as he hears the stop whistle.

Should the dog take the wrong direction following looking at you I'd be inclined to ignore it and just accept what may be the wrong bumper a time or three ......don't throw the baby out with the bathwater . There's time to sort out incorrect directions once you have the "stop and look at me."

Bill T.

That sounds reasonable. He will after sitting for a few seconds turn his head to look at me. I do not send him as I feel like I'm setting him up for failure as he would be facing opposite me with his head spun around (has to be disorienting) and expected to take the proper cast. I'll try waiting a little longer and see what happens.

[polmaise]

You might just have to break that one down for me...

Your earlier post concentrated on getting everything right ..in line ..yup , for sure ..but this little 10 month old we just want 'Go' ...sticking on the 'get it right' as per the book is when it's learned 'Go' ...and it's always a win for the dog .
Changing the send point to a known area for the dog is a confidence builder
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YdonGifuJCY
The distance is increased only when we refine the 'cues' that the dog has learned to 'go' and keep on truckin . (momentum) .
Using 'Marks' ..believe it or not is a great way for the dog to 'Line it'self' up to you ..which is what your WW and other drills mentioned are rightly mentioned as a procedure rather than a cure .
'Always' momentum ...............The precision comes with this. (imho)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cSOzmvDvhYY

The handling on a blind , such as stop whistle and direction commands if used early in training with a young dog (retrieving drills) ...looses momentum . Let's face it You posted you wanted the dog to go !..and go in a straight line ?

[polmaise]

Thanks for input guys....

Let me pick your brain again.

How can I get him to turn and face me when I stop him?

Blow the stop whistle and throw a tennis ball right at his gob ! ..If you miss that's ok .
After a few times he will turn round and either catch it or anticipate it . You are half way there to conditioning a stop whistle to turn and face you .
The next phase is available on request . I do like a dog that has a sharp stop with the look of 'What's next for me ' ...rather 'stop you done something wrong' :roll:
We call it 'Apples' . It's a technique refined in Scotland during the fall.

[mtlee]

You might just have to break that one down for me...

Your earlier post concentrated on getting everything right ..in line ..yup , for sure ..but this little 10 month old we just want 'Go' ...sticking on the 'get it right' as per the book is when it's learned 'Go' ...and it's always a win for the dog .
Changing the send point to a known area for the dog is a confidence builder
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YdonGifuJCY
The distance is increased only when we refine the 'cues' that the dog has learned to 'go' and keep on truckin . (momentum) .
Using 'Marks' ..believe it or not is a great way for the dog to 'Line it'self' up to you ..which is what your WW and other drills mentioned are rightly mentioned as a procedure rather than a cure .
'Always' momentum ...............The precision comes with this. (imho)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cSOzmvDvhYY

The handling on a blind , such as stop whistle and direction commands if used early in training with a young dog (retrieving drills) ...looses momentum . Let's face it You posted you wanted the dog to go !..and go in a straight line ?

If I am understanding you correctly....go back to some basic lining drills, and builds lots of confidence, running hard (while running straight lines) ? I always have had a hard time understand the way y'all word things across the pond. Even after spending a few years in residency with a few guys from your part of the world. They always got blank stares when they explained things to me.....and had blank stares when it was my turn :roll:

[mtlee]

Thanks for input guys....

Let me pick your brain again.

How can I get him to turn and face me when I stop him?

Blow the stop whistle and throw a tennis ball right at his gob ! ..If you miss that's ok .
After a few times he will turn round and either catch it or anticipate it . You are half way there to conditioning a stop whistle to turn and face you .
The next phase is available on request . I do like a dog that has a sharp stop with the look of 'What's next for me ' ...rather 'stop you done something wrong' :roll:
We call it 'Apples' . It's a technique refined in Scotland during the fall.

Haha, I don't think I can throw a tennis ball or apple 100 yards!

[polmaise]

Thanks for input guys....

Let me pick your brain again.

How can I get him to turn and face me when I stop him?

Blow the stop whistle and throw a tennis ball right at his gob ! ..If you miss that's ok .
After a few times he will turn round and either catch it or anticipate it . You are half way there to conditioning a stop whistle to turn and face you .
The next phase is available on request . I do like a dog that has a sharp stop with the look of 'What's next for me ' ...rather 'stop you done something wrong' :roll:
We call it 'Apples' . It's a technique refined in Scotland during the fall.

Haha, I don't think I can throw a tennis ball or apple 100 yards!

Neither can I !
So I don't do it. Some attempt things way beyond their capabilities and ability of the dog . :roll:

[polmaise]

If I am understanding you correctly....go back to some basic lining drills, and builds lots of confidence, running hard (while running straight lines) ? I always have had a hard time understand the way y'all word things across the pond. Even after spending a few years in residency with a few guys from your part of the world. They always got blank stares when they explained things to me.....and had blank stares when it was my turn :roll:

If it's a retrieving issue you are having trouble understanding about with your dog ...go speak with a retriever guy (who has done it) ,then go back with the learned info with your breed.
atb

[gonehuntin']

Usually the easiest way to straighten a line is with an obstacle. For instance, you may put a hay bale in front of you and teach him to jump the bale on his way to the pile. The other way, which most DD's hate, is the wagon wheel. If he flares at all he ends up at the wrong bumper which is a punishable offense. However, the wagon wheel is a drill of attrition, not of aversion.

Can you elaborate on the hay bale technique?

It doesn't have to be a hay bale, it could be a wooden hurdle or a bush, but let's say it's a hay bale. Let's also say the blind is 100 yards out. Start him close to the blind and keep backing up. The hay bale will be about half way there. Teach him to jump the obstacle on his way to the blind. Gradually work back. What this does is to give him a double target and a place for you to correct. As he lines to the blind if he flares the bale, you can nick him then handle him across it. The bale or whatever straightens out his hook to the blind.

To look at you. Do a "look at me" drill. Sit him on a rope about 50' from you. Blow the sit whistle. Walk 90degrees around him, blow the here whistle, sit him, and give him short jerks until he comes around and straightens up facing you. Continue doing this until he turns and sits facing you. You should be able to walk around him, say 180 degrees, and have him self correct turning to face you but sitting. It doesn't take long for them to catch onto this.

When you are initially teaching sit to the whistle on a T, if he is on a rope and sits going away, you can give him a jerk to face you and command SIT!. Teaching sit on a T with a rope has a ton of advantages before transitioning to an collar.

Is it possible he flares left because you've created a "hot spot" with the collar? That's what it sounds like.

[Trekmoor]

If it's a retrieving issue you are having trouble understanding about with your dog ...go speak with a retriever guy (who has done it) ,then go back with the learned info with your breed.
atb

That makes good sense to me. When I got my very first pointing dog, a Brittany, many years ago I had very little idea of how to train her. I read the available books on the versatile breeds and was not at all impressed with what I read so I "went back to source" for more and for better info.

I already knew the retriever side of things having trialed labs so I read books written by Pointer/setter men for info on how to "handle" points and I read spaniel books for info on training steadiness to a hunting dog. Put the hunting , the pointing and the retrieving together in the correct measures and you then have a very desirable dog.

Go to a really good retriever trainer to learn more about retrieving.

Bill T.