Gun Dog Forum

Just curious how many of you guys let your young pups chase birds with out a check cord or do you let them just chase to the end of the check before gradually stopping them? I have always let my puppies chase birds until there heart is content then break him of that habit later but I was just thinking maybe it would be better not to ever let them get in the habit. I realize that chasing brings out desire and I definitely want that, but with a well bred bird-dog shouldn't the desire already be there? Just looking for opinions .

Mine have always been allowed to chase, and they've broke out for me really well.
We trial, and to me there's no sense in insisting on steady puppies/derbies in the face of all the other hooligans out there I'd rather deal with the wild hair than yell and shout and ram around trying to stop them chasing on course and intimidating them. I don't get lathered about broke derbies, plenty of time for broke dogs.
I've had a couple that just seemed to crawl of of the whelping pen naturally steady, but by and large they chase until around a year or 18 months old.

No pups now, but when I did I let the birds teach the lessons= chasing. When they started to hesitate , creep, point , the CC went on.

I have always agreed with that same mentality, Shags, but I thought what if you never allowed them to chase from the get-go. Maybe they would never find out that chasing is fun. I don't mean steady them up just have them on a checkcord every time that they are around game (or pigeons) and slowly bring them to a stop when the bird flushes, plenty of places to run and stretch there legs that don't hold birds. I'm sure this is not a revolutionary thought and that someone has done it. Just looking to discuss the advantages and disadvantages.

shags wrote:Mine have always been allowed to chase, and they've broke out for me really well.
We trial, and to me there's no sense in insisting on steady puppies/derbies in the face of all the other hooligans out there I'd rather deal with the wild hair than yell and shout and ram around trying to stop them chasing on course and intimidating them. I don't get lathered about broke derbies, plenty of time for broke dogs.
I've had a couple that just seemed to crawl of of the whelping pen naturally steady, but by and large they chase until around a year or 18 months old.

+1

Sharon wrote:No pups now, but when I did I let the birds teach the lessons= chasing. When they started to hesitate , creep, point , the CC went on.

That's pretty much what I do too except that I very seldom use a check cord. I just wait for a chance or two to stroke/praise the pup and that seems to be enough to induce solid pointing.

Bill T.

I would worry if my puppy did not wont to chase birds , that is where you bild the desire to find birds , My dogs 6 & 7 chase the sparows every night & morning in the yard when I turn them out to run , But they know when I set birds out or take them some where to hunt , it all buss. & they are study to shot then git the bird after it falls . I wont them to chase as puppys

Gizzmo wrote:I have always agreed with that same mentality, Shags, but I thought what if you never allowed them to chase from the get-go. Maybe they would never find out that chasing is fun. I don't mean steady them up just have them on a checkcord every time that they are around game (or pigeons) and slowly bring them to a stop when the bird flushes, plenty of places to run and stretch there legs that don't hold birds. I'm sure this is not a revolutionary thought and that someone has done it. Just looking to discuss the advantages and disadvantages.

What's wrong with a puppy having fun? Having fun is part of their job.

They're gonna figure it out sooner or later...that they can make a bird fly and take off after it - and dang! It's fun! I'd sooner let them get it out of their systems as juveniles, rather than having that particulat lightbulb come on as a a 3-4 year old.

I prefer a dog up on its toes and making me a little nervous to one one that's totally under control and going by rote. But different folks have different likes, so whatever suits.

Not looking to start anything or say any one way is wrong. I was just thinking if you taught your child to play the piano and kept him inside for the 1st 7 to 10 years of his life pretty good Chance he would think the arts was more fun than baseball I would think the same principle applies to bird dogs? If we taught them to point and we shot birds over them and they got to retrieve which if positively reinforced is even more fun than chasing, maybe they would think that finding birds to point is more fun than finding birds to chase at a young age. Again I am not arguing the point, more just wondering out loud (or in this case on line)

BTW I was talking to a friend today about this and he said that is the way they do it in the perfect start, perfect finish DVDs since I have not seen them I will not comment, maybe someone who owns them can shed more light

I always let them chase.
and when they do I start gun intro.

they find bird
they chase bird
I fire blank gun
rinse ,repeat

I'll let them chase and chase and chase. When they start pointing and then holding them a bit, it's time to start steadying them.

With puppies, I error on the side of letting them have fun and intensifying prey drive.

I prefer a dog up on its toes and making me a little nervous to one one that's totally under control and going by rote. But different folks have different likes, so whatever suits.

+1. It's called intensity!

Charlie

All my young dogs chase birds. And all my broke dogs break on the flush during hunting season.

Gizzmo wrote:...I thought what if you never allowed them to chase from the get-go. Maybe they would never find out that chasing is fun....

That's an old debate what to put in first - the breaks or the gas pedal
In the old days in continental Europe in particular, pups were fully trained in obedience BEFORE any exposure to game. Now the opposite is more in fashion. Whatever works for you. I am lazy, I don't like to do more training, than absolutely necessary, I don't like to think for the dog all the time, so I let them chase, unless you come across a rare pup that enjoys chasing more than anything else and is stuck in this phase too long.

Let em chase. They're only young once.

Chase but don't catch...Homer's work well in launchers. For me, when they hold to the flush it's time to start the STWS process. As Mo Lindley says " put as much prey drive in the pup as you can" since the breaking process always takes a little out of them no matter how good a trainer you are.

No chase here, and I am pretty sure that has had plenty of fun in spite of that.

Mike

Chasing by it very nature is part and parcel of the pointing dog culture. Its not a bad thing it is what it is. I can only assume that OP is a hunter. Spaniel and Retriever training would approached differently. Normally the more a dog enjoys a behavior, increasesd amonuts of force is required to bring the dog back under control. In. I always like to pick my battles carefully.

I do allow spaniel pups a few chases. Especially on rabbits. There is nothing quite like a chase or two on rabbits for pulling spaniel pups into nasty cover. Depending very much upon an individual pups nature I decide when it has had enough chases. I try to stop the chasing just as soon as a pup will unhesitatingly batter through just about any kind of cover.
Usually the pups themselves decide when to stop chasing after pheasants , the pups would rather just hunt on to try to find another one and then try to make a better job of pegging it !

Bill T.

Trekmoor wrote:I do allow spaniel pups a few chases. Especially on rabbits. There is nothing quite like a chase or two on rabbits for pulling spaniel pups into nasty cover. Depending very much upon an individual pups nature I decide when it has had enough chases. I try to stop the chasing just as soon as a pup will unhesitatingly batter through just about any kind of cover.
Usually the pups themselves decide when to stop chasing after pheasants , the pups would rather just hunt on to try to find another one and then try to make a better job of pegging it !

Bill T.

I was just re reading Delmar Smith and Terrant's book again and he said "let the pup chase the off game" when they discover they can never catch them they stop.on their own. I have used this approach for years and it works. I have my dogs bump rabbits, prong horns, deer etc and they just keep hunting. The only exception is coyotes and when their around I pull my gun out.

gundogguy wrote:Chasing by it very nature is part and parcel of the pointing dog culture. Its not a bad thing it is what it is. I can only assume that OP is a hunter. Spaniel and Retriever training would approached differently. Normally the more a dog enjoys a behavior, increasesd amonuts of force is required to bring the dog back under control. In. I always like to pick my battles carefully.

Often wondered why a Spaniel never got the same mindset when allowed to chase the same as a pointer ? .Not.
If one wanted to confirm intent to bash cover ,then a hungry one that has raw liver tossed in brambles will soon let you know without the need for a rabbit
Chase is a natural instinct in all breeds of dogs ..except pugs ,they do nothing apparently

My spaniel chased his entire first year of life and first full season of hunting. I would think spaniel/flushing people would be more apt to let them chase as it doesn't matter if they catch (whereas pointy people fear the catch). Lots of ways to skin a cat though. I think it mainly depends on your goals for the dog as well. A hunting dog has no pressing timelines to be at a certain place, you have their entire life to hunt and tweak things... whereas a pointer or retriever getting ready for derbies or trials require different things. Likewise a spaniel bursting onto the trial scene at a young age needs to be solid in their steadiness. I do believe that a dog allowed to chase though does eventually learn that it cannot catch and will start to shorten the distance it chases - especially on wild birds. That was the point where I started to enforce steadiness with my dog. I really think a dog will tell you when to do what if you know how to listen.

CDN_Cocker wrote: I do believe that a dog allowed to chase though does eventually learn that it cannot catch and will start to shorten the distance it chases - especially on wild birds. That was the point where I started to enforce steadiness with my dog. I really think a dog will tell you when to do what if you know how to listen.

I like a 'Bold flush'
But hey' each to their own .

polmaise wrote: I like a 'Bold flush'
But hey' each to their own .

Agreed.

gundogguy wrote:Chasing by it very nature is part and parcel of the pointing dog culture. Its not a bad thing it is what it is....Normally the more a dog enjoys a behavior, increasesd amonuts of force is required to bring the dog back under control. In. I always like to pick my battles carefully.

I hope my dogs come to enjoy finding and pointing 'em more fun than chasing

We allow our pups to work the chase out along with
Rick Smith & Ferrell Miller

I allow them to chase on a limited basis. They can chase until they're about six months old, then no more. They've learned by six months what the chase will teach them. Chasing is a bad habit that will have to be broken sooner than later. To instill drive I far prefer to let them chase and catch clip wings than chase birds over hill and dale.

gonehuntin' wrote:I allow them to chase on a limited basis. They can chase until they're about six months old, then no more. They've learned by six months what the chase will teach them. Chasing is a bad habit that will have to be broken sooner than later. To instill drive I far prefer to let them chase and catch clip wings than chase birds over hill and dale.

I have never done that: I'm curious as to how that works. Do you just throw a clipped wing in the launcher and then do as normal? let them point chase and catch?

Pups all (we pray) want to chase birds. Just be sure that, if pen-raised birds are used, that they flush and fly properly. "Catching" on the flush is not good!

Ive got a question on this topic, dont mean to hijack but figured i wont start another thread on the same topic.

I live in S. Florida with my 5 month old GSP. I live on a large golf course that is home to many many many different types of birds (Mottled ducks, Mallards, Teal, Cranes, Ospreys, etc...). Almost every afternoon once the course is closed i take my pup out for some off leash exercise through some tall grass areas and lakes. He absolutely loves it.

Now my issue is that he will stalk and point some birds, as well as chase others. Most birds are smart enough to fly away before he can catch them. BUT we have an invasive specie of duck here called a Muscovy Duck. They are big, ugly, dumb good for nothing ducks that are domesticated because some people like to feed them as pets. THEY ARE EVERYWHERE! Now the problem is that my pup actually has learned that he can stalk and catch these dumb ducks rather easliy. I always read that its okay to let pups chase birds when theyre young as long as they dont catch them. Im afraid this is teaching my pup that he has the ability to actually catch all birds therefore he thinks he should chase them.

Am I wrong for thinking that? And what should I do in this situation?

Thanks!

Kelsey

IME pups learn to ignore non-game bird species.

If it were me, I 'd teach that pup 'leave it' on the muscoveys, because if the area folks or owners of the golf course treat them as pets, you might be opening yourself up to major hassles if your dog harasses, catches, and/or kills them.

tckelsey wrote:Ive got a question on this topic, dont mean to hijack but figured i wont start another thread on the same topic.

I live in S. Florida with my 5 month old GSP. I live on a large golf course that is home to many many many different types of birds (Mottled ducks, Mallards, Teal, Cranes, Ospreys, etc...). Almost every afternoon once the course is closed i take my pup out for some off leash exercise through some tall grass areas and lakes. He absolutely loves it.

Now my issue is that he will stalk and point some birds, as well as chase others. Most birds are smart enough to fly away before he can catch them. BUT we have an invasive specie of duck here called a Muscovy Duck. They are big, ugly, dumb good for nothing ducks that are domesticated because some people like to feed them as pets. THEY ARE EVERYWHERE! Now the problem is that my pup actually has learned that he can stalk and catch these dumb ducks rather easliy. I always read that its okay to let pups chase birds when theyre young as long as they dont catch them. Im afraid this is teaching my pup that he has the ability to actually catch all birds therefore he thinks he should chase them.

Am I wrong for thinking that? And what should I do in this situation?

Thanks!

Kelsey

Just for your information Muscovys are possibly thr best eating duck going and you will find them on many Midwestern farms. They are a domestic duck and not wild. Great birds but are not wild.

shags wrote:IME pups learn to ignore non-game bird species.

If it were me, I 'd teach that pup 'leave it' on the muscoveys, because if the area folks or owners of the golf course treat them as pets, you might be opening yourself up to major hassles if your dog harasses, catches, and/or kills them.

Yup def already had this issue with a crazy duck lady that treats them as pets. Ive been trying to teach him to ignore them, but it seems he knows he can def catch them now.

ezzy333 wrote:

tckelsey wrote:Ive got a question on this topic, dont mean to hijack but figured i wont start another thread on the same topic.

I live in S. Florida with my 5 month old GSP. I live on a large golf course that is home to many many many different types of birds (Mottled ducks, Mallards, Teal, Cranes, Ospreys, etc...). Almost every afternoon once the course is closed i take my pup out for some off leash exercise through some tall grass areas and lakes. He absolutely loves it.

Now my issue is that he will stalk and point some birds, as well as chase others. Most birds are smart enough to fly away before he can catch them. BUT we have an invasive specie of duck here called a Muscovy Duck. They are big, ugly, dumb good for nothing ducks that are domesticated because some people like to feed them as pets. THEY ARE EVERYWHERE! Now the problem is that my pup actually has learned that he can stalk and catch these dumb ducks rather easliy. I always read that its okay to let pups chase birds when theyre young as long as they dont catch them. Im afraid this is teaching my pup that he has the ability to actually catch all birds therefore he thinks he should chase them.

Am I wrong for thinking that? And what should I do in this situation?

Thanks!

Kelsey

Just for your information Muscovys are possibly thr best eating duck going and you will find them on many Midwestern farms. They are a domestic duck and not wild. Great birds but are not wild.

Thanks, def didnt know that. I think ill pass though. Knowing what they eat and seeing how ugly they are.

Theyre also considered a nuisance species here and legal to catch/kill any time of year.