Can't finish FF

[GCG]

I am trying to finish FF with a DD that is about 20 months. The problem I am having with the retrieve is when I grab the ear she starts to freeze up & fight it. She then just looses focus & turns all her attention to fighting the ear pinch. And by fighting it I mean she just stops moving & crouches & takes on the pressure. With out pressure she does ok on everything she wants to pick up or is familiar with. But once I grab the ear she immediately shuts down even if its a bumper on the ground or table. I am currently in a small class once a week at a trainers garage with a few others. Last week he didn't think she was moving fast enough to get the bumper so he took over for a couple retrieves. The first two she would just slowly walk to the bumper & then hesitate before picking it up. On the third time half way there (on the bench) she just stopped & resisted. Ultimately I'm not sure who won because he ended up with both hands in her ear pinching to get her to finish. Finally he took one off grabbed the bumper & stuck it in her mouth. The bad part was two days later I had to take her into the vet due to an ear infection as that ear was red & oozing a little. So I'm not sure what to do to continue with because I know this week when we go to his house she won't even want to move once on the bench. In the mean time I'm a bit perplexed on how to continue her daily training because by just even holding her ear it gets her out of focus of the command given and starts to slow down which is the opposite of what we are trying to achieve.

[cjhills]

I do not do a lot of force fetch. I rather do a conditioned retrieve. So this may not be right, also not familiar with DDs, but a dog is a dog. Since I do not now how you started and where you are at it is hard to say but It sounds like you may be proceeding to fast. Moving forward before she gets it. It also seems like she has learned she can win by resisting. Personally, I don't think a dogs ear should bleed during force retrieve training. I may be in the minority on that. I have seen some really brutal force retrieve training. Seen one trainer break a dogs leg.
I would back off and be a little gentler and make sure there is no escape and only one way to make the pressure stop. Make sure she understands that the pressure stops only when she grabs the dummy. The pressure does not have to be extreme pain. If she is collar conditioned it might work to use the e-collar. I would for sure want her grabbing the dummy on the fetch command every time before I moved forward. I also think I would pass on the trainer for awhile at least.
It does not sound like she is ready to pick the dummy off the ground or table yet. Most dogs resist picking the dummy off the ground at first. Good Luck..................Cj
Somebody edited my post. not sure why but it was not me

[RayGubernat]

I am not all that familiar with force fetching so this may be off base...

But... It sounds to me like someone's timing was off and the additional pressure made the situation worse, not better. It sounds like there was a test of wills...and the dog won.

I think the dog is freezing up because it is not sure what you want and is locking up as a "safe". Any additional pressure in the same way might only cause the dog to resist even more.

I think you will now have to "show" the dog what you want with a different approach.

I would suggest that before you put the dog back up on the FF bench that you do some work on the ground to change stuff up and avoid the "bad" place, at least in the beginning. Work with what the dog already knows and is comfortable with, to build back its confidence and trust.

You might also consider using the toe pinch instead, at least for now.

I wonder if encouraging the dog to go forward for the buck with a checkcord might not be a way forward. You might try hanging the buck about head high for the dog and heeling it into the buck. With the checkcord, if the dog "freezes", you can keep mild pressure on the dog to go forward, gently tug the checkcord and simultaneously actually pick up one leg and place it forward. Then repeat with the other front leg...again with gentle pressure. Once the front legs are forward, you can pick up the entire back and move it forward, then repeat with the front legs. Remember to release the pressure the instant the dog does what you want. Even if you have to physically move the leg, you should release or lessen the pressure the instant you put that front foot on the ground...as a reward and a cue to the dog.

Remember...the dog is NOT being obstinate. Tough minded...YES. Strong willed...YES. Physically stout and stoic...sure sounds that way. (my kind of dog, BTW) I think it is trying to do what it thinks you want it to do. Somewhere in its head it is saying: " I don't want to mess up, so I am going to stay right here." You need to show it how to do what you want and get it out of that locked up response mode. More force ain't gonna get you where you want to be with your dog, at least I don't think so.

I would suggest that you approach your next training sessions with as much patience as you can muster and with the expectation that you are going to be there as long as it takes for the dog to be comfortable. You are now on the dog's timetable...not yours. The dog will tell you when, and if... it is ready to proceed,. If it is not ready...you need to change it up...not force it...because forcing it didn't work the first time and probably won't the second time either. Be gentle, be encouraging, be persistent.

I will offer one last observation, which comes from folks who train horses( which are 1000 + pounds and which you ABSOLUTELY cannot force). If you approach the training session as if you have all day to get it done, it will probably take 15 minutes. if instead, you approach the training session as if you only have 15 minutes, it will probably take you all day.

I repeat that I am not any sort of authority on force fetching, so my suggestions might not be the be the best way to proceed, as far as the mechanics are concerned.

However, the way your dog is reacting is quite common with the tough minded, strong willed dogs I truly enjoy working with.

RayG

[Vision]

Get away from the trainer and watch Standing Stone kennels force fetch series. After watching a dozen times do it yourself.

https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=P ... fuz6t55YUg

[setterpoint]

lif you cant finish f.f then i would send the dog to someone who can it may cost you a few bucks but thats better for both of you in the long run

[oldbeek]

X2 on standing stone kennels. I had to go from the toe pinch to the e-collar because dog was so hard headed. I ,gently, won. 2 sessions per day and 3 weeks later, I am the boss and we are a great team.

[Triggerman]

I also followed the standing stone kennels videos. The first couple of sessions on the e-collar were a little rough, but once we transitioned to the e-collar the process got a lot smoother.

[gonehuntin']

You're boring the dog and not progressing fast enough. I get off the ear as soon as possible and go to the stick or collar. Once the dog jumps for the bumper and will pick up from the ground, it's time for the stick or collar. There is something very, very true wrong with your technique plus it sounds like your pro is not very skilled in FF. You may have to quit and send her to a GOOD retriever trainer to finish her off. FF is a six to eight week course with most of them.

[skunk]

I brought my dog (a Griff) through FF myself (using Evan Graham's Smart Fetch) and he was also not very enthusiastic about retrieving bumpers. Also, earlier on in the process when we were doing the ear pinch, he'd clam up sometimes and pinching harder wouldn't do any good. Evan briefly mentions in his DVD that "you shouldn't try to defeat your dog by simply applying more pressure" (paraphrasing there) so I wasn't sure what to do.

What I ended up doing was just applying the same amount of pressure I usually would on the ear and then I'd just force the bumper in his mouth, immediately release the pressure, and make him hold the bumper for a bit. Eventually, he got the idea and he'd do what was asked. Now with that said, he still wouldn't get real excited about retrieving bumpers so I would try to get him excited about it each time we were practicing. I also kept the sessions short.

This was all happening last winter and spring. Now that bird hunting season is closed here, I have been giving my dog something to do with short obedience sessions in the house or yard. Just last night I got the bumper out for some FF practice and he was going crazy about that bumper -- even jumping at it when I had it in my back pocket. I think this last bit may be helpful for you since I had some of the same worries as you did but we got through it and the dog loves it now.

[gonehuntin']

Skunk, did you thoroughly school him in the jowl pinch before you started the ear pinch?

[skunk]

Skunk, did you thoroughly school him in the jowl pinch before you started the ear pinch?

Smart Fetch doesn't use a jowl pinch so no, that wasn't in the method I was following.

[gonehuntin']

What the jowl pinch does is to teach a dog to open his mouth and accept the bumper with a minimum amount of pain. Then when you go to the ear the dog has learned in an orderly manor to accept pressure. It makes it easier for him to understand.