Shy Dog and pigeons

[DeLo727]

So I have a question that's going to get mixed responses but I am curious to hear from some more seasoned members. I am thinking about adding a puppy to the kennel and that desire lured me into a great conversation with a new breeder. So here is my multi-part question. Go into this assuming everything I am telling you is spot on because it is.
I have a very soft puppy, I'm completely OK with that. We have been taking things extremely slow as a result and having pretty good luck. I just recently finished my pigeon loft and got my hands on a bunch of starter birds. The first bird I gave him I just waved it around a little and set it off and he chased it super excited just like you would want.
I planted the second and was a little confused when he seemed pretty apprehensive and possibly even a little scared of the bird. Here's the scenario. I planted the bird dizzy as heck and walked the dog into it downwind on a checkcord. It kind of looked like he may have scented it about 15 yards away because he stopped cold in his tracks. Not really pointing, more of just an interested pose. Shortly after, the bird decided to get up and walk around and I could see that my pup was pretty unsure about what to do. When the bird flushed, he jumped back clearly startled, not terrified but definitely a little bit scared.
Today I gave him another bird. Same story. Keep in mind this is only his third bird ever. This time I planted really deep into a thick bush in the woods and walked him into it. It really did not seem like he scented it at all or if he did, he didn't pay attention to it so I walked him right to it. He immediately pointed it, at least I think that's what he was doing. Lets say at a minimum that he paused right on top of the bird. Bird flushes, he chases a short distance and that's that for the day.
It sounds all well and good in writing but in person it's a little concerning. He just does not seem that excited about birds right now, not as much as he should be even when they are presented to him. He likes to chase them when they are flying away but when they aren't, he's pretty cautious. The new breeder I was speaking to, with whom I was pretty impressed btw, suggested I basically feed him one. Lock the wings, let it wiggle around and let the dog kill it. He mentioned that he saw Ronnie Smith do this at a seminar so that holds some weight with me. It just seems to go against everything we hear as beginners about letting dogs catch birds....Thoughts?

[Meller]

How old is this puppy?

[gonehuntin']

Believe it or not, for some pups a pigeon can be a very intimidating bird, especially if it's only 8-10 weeks. I would either try a quail and see what happens or go to dead birds and get him retrieving and having fun. At 12-16 weeks re-into the live birds. I personally am not excited by a pup like yours. I like to see them attack and chase birds from 6-7 weeks old and don't buy one that doesn't. That being said, some pups just start slower than others. If your new pup is from good breeding, I doubt you have much to worry about.

Another thing is that you said you brought your pup in DOWNWIND of the bird. I far prefer CROSSWIND so the bird scent smacks him in the nose all at one time rather than gradually becoming stronger as it does when you bring him in downwind.

[shags]

First, there is no "should be" with puppies. They are what they are. Don't stress out about what does or doesn't happen, and don't put that mental pressure on yourself or the dog.

Your pup's behavior doesn't sound unusual to me. He's young and clueless and it will take some time and more exposure for him to turn on.

IMO you should plant in light cover where the pup has better chances of scenting and even seeing the bird. Heavy cover handicaps your pup at this stage. Use a small area, like 50 x 100 feet, so the pup isn't worn out or overwhelmed.
You might consider losing the check cord, too. Plant your birds and take the pup for a walk so he can find them. I think pups tend to be bolder when off the cc, and bolder is what you want.
Stay quiet, don't nag with things like "hunt em up!" or "find it!". Don't crowd the pup. If he roots a bird out and chases, fine, go on to another.
If your pup isn't ready ( not interested) put him up and give him a week or two. Then try again. Sometimes we get this thing in *our* heads that our bird dog pups should come out of the box ready to roll, and that just isn't true with a good many of them. They have their own schedule. It can be really disappointing to have all these big expectations then the pup looks like a dud. But eventually they get it, some sooner, some later. Patience, Grasshopper

[DeLo727]

Just to update and add a caveat to the responses. He is almost six months old. That answers the first question. As for the lineage, his pedigree is impressive. In fact, his litter has the most impressive pedigree I have seen from US born EB's, especially if you put stock in titles. I waited a long time for this breeding, if you put stock into genetics than he should be a five star dog. As for placing into light cover, the initial problem was noticed on his second bird which was placed in very light cover, so light that if he looked at the spot he could very easily have seen the bird from 10-15 yards away.
With all that said, I think the responses are getting away from what I was looking for. I don't expect him to be a bird finding machine, in fact I don't even expect him to find them at all at this point. I probably have the lowest expectations of any hunting dog owner I have met. Its a mental decision I made going into this little guy in an effort to keep pressure off of him and me. What I am more interested in hearing is what people think about the theory of letting a timid dog like this kill a bird to decrease his insecurity with the birds and increase his prey drive for them.

[DeLo727]

Believe it or not, for some pups a pigeon can be a very intimidating bird, especially if it's only 8-10 weeks. I would either try a quail and see what happens or go to dead birds and get him retrieving and having fun. At 12-16 weeks re-into the live birds. I personally am not excited by a pup like yours. I like to see them attack and chase birds from 6-7 weeks old and don't buy one that doesn't. That being said, some pups just start slower than others. If your new pup is from good breeding, I doubt you have much to worry about.

Another thing is that you said you brought your pup in DOWNWIND of the bird. I far prefer CROSSWIND so the bird scent smacks him in the nose all at one time rather than gradually becoming stronger as it does when you bring him in downwind.

interesting about the crosswind thing, Im gunna give that a shot the next time I plant

[ROTTnBRITT]

What I am more interested in hearing is what people think about the theory of letting a timid dog like this kill a bird to decrease his insecurity with the birds and increase his prey drive for them.

I would give the dog a bird to sniff, play with, mouth and run around with, be it a locked wing or even a dead bird. Its a good way to introduce birds. It gives them a change to explore and learn about the bird, and become confident that the bird isn't going to hurt them. I start all puppy's this way. Don't necessarily let them kill a bird, but if it happens. Its not a big deal.

[bobman]

put him down with a bold pup that will run after the pigeon...monkee see monkee do

he will gain confidence


One of the funniest things I've seen was a litter of six 6 month old pups dancing around a rooster that I winged in a cut corn field in Iowa. They weren't sure what to do until my old 13 year old shorthair limped up grabbed the bird, "crunch", spit it out and walked off. It was like he was showing them what to do.

After they watched that they were all over cripples LOL.

[DeLo727]

put him down with a bold pup that will run after the pigeon...monkee see monkee do

he will gain confidence


One of the funniest things I've seen was a litter of six 6 month old pups dancing around a rooster that I winged in a cut corn field in Iowa. They weren't sure what to do until my old 13 year old shorthair limped up grabbed the bird, "crunch", spit it out and walked off. It was like he was showing them what to do.

After they watched that they were all over cripples LOL.

lol, I can picture it. Good story

[rinker]

Your situation is not all that unusual. I suspect that a little time will solve it all. I wouldn't push it. I would run the pup a lot and show him a bird once a week or so until the light comes on. I have had a few dogs that had no interest in pigeons ever. They did great with quail. There is one thing you can try if you want to hurry the process along. Put the pup on a chain gang with a few puppies that are bird crazy, use a locked wing pigeon, or pigeon on a string and tease them with it. The other puppies are going to go ballistic, and that might encourage yours to get a little excited.

[Chukar12]

Gonehuntin spoke of the possibility that pigeons may be intimidating, that sounds most likely based on what you have provided.

I would not initially concern myself with the catching or chasing issue with this dog. My opinion is that you need something to work with and the predatory nature of this dog is underdeveloped. Go to Craigslist and buy the weakest young quail ... Like cotournix. Let the puppy have at them until it is bird crazy and dominant. Then move back to pigeons and make sure it will chase and pursue before you concern yourself with restrictions around birds.

[DeLo727]

thanks everyone. Im going to post a new topic in a minute with some video because I think that will be more helpful Thanks for the responses

[Sharon]

put him down with a bold pup that will run after the pigeon...monkee see monkee do

he will gain confidence


One of the funniest things I've seen was a litter of six 6 month old pups dancing around a rooster that I winged in a cut corn field in Iowa. They weren't sure what to do until my old 13 year old shorthair limped up grabbed the bird, "crunch", spit it out and walked off. It was like he was showing them what to do.

After they watched that they were all over cripples LOL.

ROFLMBO -- too funny!

[Vernal Pike]

This vid will help you.
Pull a few feathers out of a quail and let your pup bump and chase and catch some birds.


https://vimeo.com/56924329

[DeLo727]

This vid will help you.


https://vimeo.com/56924329

wow thanks! this is perfect