Gun Dog Forum

On a thread on here, a member asked about a standard training proceedure, what it was and how it was accomplished. I answered him, neither endorsing the program, although I do, or belittling it. Rather than members simply reading it and opting to use of not use it, it turned into a thread of insults, incorrect assumptions, and gross misconceptions. When people can't discuss a method civilly, it beats me how they ever train their poor dog's. A moderator should never be forced to step in and lock one of these threads. IMO.

A moderator should also not take sides in a conversation.

gonehuntin' wrote:On a thread on here, a member asked about a standard training proceedure, what it was and how it was accomplished. I answered him, neither endorsing the program, although I do, or belittling it. Rather than members simply reading it and opting to use of not use it, it turned into a thread of insults, incorrect assumptions, and gross misconceptions. When people can't discuss a method civilly, it beats me how they ever train their poor dog's. A moderator should never be forced to step in and lock one of these threads. IMO.

I hear you. Discouraging sometimes. In those situations , I try to help by PM

( I think a moderator should also have the pleasure of participating in discussions, not just sit around waiting to see if he needs to discipline. In the 3 dog forums I enjoy, all the moderators participate ; obviously their posts often will agree with one position and not another. Ezzy and I don't always agree , but I value his input and am not offended if he thinks I'm "out to lunch".

I was not part of the thread....... As I recall someone asked for a moderator to lock the thread. No moderator was forced to intervene.

The shame is the moderator does remove posts that advocate animal abuse, which is what your methods are. Anyone caught using the techniques you outlined would go to jail for animal cruelty.

Even if the "means" of your "techniques" weren't as brutal as they are, the "end" of terrorizing a dog so badly that it feels "the only safe place in the world is by your side" (the stated goal) is about the worst possible outcome one could hope for with a hunting dog.

"True colors" is the right term here.

Bill

nikegundog wrote:I was not part of the thread....... As I recall someone asked for a moderator to lock the thread. No moderator was forced to intervene.

The someone was the person who's now complaining about it :roll:

Bill

Sharon wrote:

gonehuntin' wrote:On a thread on here, a member asked about a standard training proceedure, what it was and how it was accomplished. I answered him, neither endorsing the program, although I do, or belittling it. Rather than members simply reading it and opting to use of not use it, it turned into a thread of insults, incorrect assumptions, and gross misconceptions. When people can't discuss a method civilly, it beats me how they ever train their poor dog's. A moderator should never be forced to step in and lock one of these threads. IMO.

I hear you. Discouraging sometimes. In those situations , I try to help by PM

( I think a moderator should also have the pleasure of participating in discussions, not just sit around waiting to see if he needs to discipline. In the 3 dog forums I enjoy, all the moderators participate ; obviously their posts often will agree with one position and not another. Ezzy and I don't always agree , but I value his input and am not offended if he thinks I'm "out to lunch".

Is that what a moderator does in a debate?

The only posts that need to be moderated are anything libelous.

Other than that, members should live with what they post and anyone not liking it should use their scroll wheel.

The shame is what this forum has become, or better yet not become. It use to be a great place, slowly but surely it has turned into what it is now.

Yeah, a bunch of know it alls who are stuck in the past, who don't give a "bleep" what anyone else says or thinks. And a moderator who backs them every time.

Ricky Ticky Shorthairs wrote:Yeah, a bunch of know it alls who are stuck in the past, who don't give a "bleep" what anyone else says or thinks. And a moderator who backs them every time.

And too arrogant to even see what has happened around them.

Yep. I'm sure Rob isn't very happy that his investment is going down the tubes.

Nothing's going down the tubes. It's just the internet.

Yeah, just the Internet, which is the reason he purchased the site. To promote his business Gun Dog Supply. I would venture to guess it's not turning out to be the money maker he invisioned it to be.

Just thought you guys would be proud that you're getting crucified on Facebook.

Ricky Ticky Shorthairs wrote:Just thought you guys would be proud that you're getting crucified on Facebook.

Oh no!!! Life as we know it, is over.
Well. Maybe not, there's still the twitter.
:roll:

shags wrote:

Ricky Ticky Shorthairs wrote:Just thought you guys would be proud that you're getting crucified on Facebook.

Oh no!!! Life as we know it, is over.
Well. Maybe not, there's still the twitter.
:roll:

Sure as heck seems as though life is over on this site.

Sharon wrote:

gonehuntin' wrote:On a thread on here, a member asked about a standard training proceedure, what it was and how it was accomplished. I answered him, neither endorsing the program, although I do, or belittling it. Rather than members simply reading it and opting to use of not use it, it turned into a thread of insults, incorrect assumptions, and gross misconceptions. When people can't discuss a method civilly, it beats me how they ever train their poor dog's. A moderator should never be forced to step in and lock one of these threads. IMO.

I hear you. Discouraging sometimes. In those situations , I try to help by PM

( I think a moderator should also have the pleasure of participating in discussions, not just sit around waiting to see if he needs to discipline. In the 3 dog forums I enjoy, all the moderators participate ; obviously their posts often will agree with one position and not another. Ezzy and I don't always agree , but I value his input and am not offended if he thinks I'm "out to lunch".

Nothing wrong with moderators participating, but at the point they do, they should no longer be able to moderate that thread. To much of the bully mentality happens here with moderators, that don't happen on other sites. When things don't go their way that edit, threaten, bully or lock threads, happens time and time again.
So I ask you Sharon is unreasonable to have a moderator remove himself from of his duties, once actively engaged of in an argument? Seems like a common sense approach.

Good to see different points of view, even those are not directly linked to subject. I would like to comment on Andy's post as he has been quick to make the same statement before and as I remember I answered it then and will again. Yes, we are different, We are much bigger with a tremendously bigger audience. I have been doing some research and find there are over 50 people here on the forum at most anytime of the day. As we speak right now there are 59 signed in and that is what we find at most times. We have had some of our original posters not on very often anymore for various reasons but the largest reason is Facebook where those people can and do have a site of their own where they can have direct conversation with their friends family, customers, and people interested in their dogs or services. I am sure you have noticed even the owners do not post here as they have their own site also. This forum has been directed towards an information site for new owners and trainers, and we continue to grow at a phenomenal rate as we approach 13000 members and many more guests who come to read and learn. So I am sure we are not as satisfying to many of the people like Andy, myself and many more of you that are now the professors and not the students but haven't really taken hold of that new position. And of course some have left our of boredom, some out of disgust, some were asked to leave, and many are still here but do not post often.

Another thing I find disturbing is the lack of understanding or whatever you want to call it when anyone states a position or worse yet is trying to explain something and a certain few are always ready to pounce on them. Why do we want to shoot the messenger and why do we so often think that the messenger is advocating everything he tries to explain. Case in point, drowning a litter of unwanted puppies, shooting and old crippled animal, or just knocking them in the head, all very common practices that I would immediately hear about if I advocated them or if I admit I do or have done any of them but no one knows whether I am for or against, whether I practice any of them or not, but I would be criticized to the point getting off of the forum. So to carry this a little further I will admit have done two of the three so I suppose I am barbaric in someone's eyes. But yet you don't know when or why I did it so do I deserve any slack? There is more to be told but I will drop it here.

All of us need to stop and think a bit before condemning everyone that says something you don't agree with and spend some time learning why things are done differently. Those of you who don't think you can learn anything are just admitting you have a problem that's much greater than the person you are directing your comment or anger towards. There is a lot to say about being part of a solution and not part of the problem and it starts and ends with you.
Ezzy

Mods should def be free to participate but as I said earlier, aside from libelous statements, everything posted should be left alone.

Let folks figure it out on their own.

Just my 2 cents.

Anyone use the Live Chat anymore?

Any chance you guys just have a beer and talk to folk ?
Some during this phase have just went off my radar and I I have never even met them in real life !
Now that has to be sad for the community of 'Gun dogs' ...........and I ain't in your country !!
But I will be shortly come Easter.
I bet Y'all are not what you are on the board. ?

polmaise wrote:Any chance you guys just have a beer and talk to folk ?
Some during this phase have just went off my radar and I I have never even met them in real life !
Now that has to be sad for the community of 'Gun dogs' ...........and I ain't in your country !!
But I will be shortly come Easter.
I bet Y'all are not what you are on the board. ?

You are so right Robert. Where are you going to be during the Easter season?

ezzy333 wrote: Where are you going to be during the Easter season?

Spending some time with some 'Rednecks' ...Honestly !
I'll be in North Louisiana learning what Y'all mericans can teach me about dogs and working my way North.
It will be a while before I get to ''south of the great lakes'' ,but I've already been North of there anyway .
Looking forward to that ''southern charm''

polmaise wrote:

ezzy333 wrote: Where are you going to be during the Easter season?

Spending some time with some 'Rednecks' ...Honestly !
I'll be in North Louisiana learning what Y'all mericans can teach me about dogs and working my way North.
It will be a while before I get to ''south of the great lakes'' ,but I've already been North of there anyway .
Looking forward to that ''southern charm''

I am North of Louisiana and south of the great Lakes? Might take you to the pub for a pint

ezzy333 wrote:

polmaise wrote:

ezzy333 wrote: Where are you going to be during the Easter season?

Spending some time with some 'Rednecks' ...Honestly !
I'll be in North Louisiana learning what Y'all mericans can teach me about dogs and working my way North.
It will be a while before I get to ''south of the great lakes'' ,but I've already been North of there anyway .
Looking forward to that ''southern charm''

I am North of Louisiana and south of the great Lakes? Might take you to the pub for a pint

Every one is ..Sure would be nice .
I'm on a learning curve at the age of 56 and a bucket list tour of life.
I still eat bacon rolls and eggs like everyone else I know ,but I like to learn ....Crawfish is good they tell me

nikegundog wrote:

Sharon wrote:

gonehuntin' wrote:On a thread on here, a member asked about a standard training proceedure, what it was and how it was accomplished. I answered him, neither endorsing the program, although I do, or belittling it. Rather than members simply reading it and opting to use of not use it, it turned into a thread of insults, incorrect assumptions, and gross misconceptions. When people can't discuss a method civilly, it beats me how they ever train their poor dog's. A moderator should never be forced to step in and lock one of these threads. IMO.

I hear you. Discouraging sometimes. In those situations , I try to help by PM

( I think a moderator should also have the pleasure of participating in discussions, not just sit around waiting to see if he needs to discipline. In the 3 dog forums I enjoy, all the moderators participate ; obviously their posts often will agree with one position and not another. Ezzy and I don't always agree , but I value his input and am not offended if he thinks I'm "out to lunch".

Nothing wrong with moderators participating, but at the point they do, they should no longer be able to moderate that thread. To much of the bully mentality happens here with moderators, that don't happen on other sites. When things don't go their way that edit, threaten, bully or lock threads, happens time and time again.
So I ask you Sharon is unreasonable to have a moderator remove himself from of his duties, once actively engaged of in an argument? Seems like a common sense approach.

...............................

Just my opinion. I am far from the last word on here. I think a moderator should be able to participate in threads. He/she is a volunteer who also enjoys talking about dogs/ sharing their experience. . I see no reason why they should at the same time not do their job of holding folks to the rules. Why can't they participate in talking "dogs" in the thread, and yet deal with a rule breaker too? Maybe I'm missing sometimes.
I've never seen a thread locked because the moderator didn't agree with the positions taken in the argument given - only because common rules were being broken. ( been on here 8+ years.)

PS If some threads weren't locked there are a few members who would go on arguing until the Lord comes. However, I don't think if the OP says "lock my post" that should be sufficient reason.

PPS I've been pleased with the number of first time posters on here in the last couple months - also disappointed with several frequent members lack of sensitivity to their questions. I try to help by PM often .

I agree Sharon even though you are a trouble maker. argumentative, old, and worse of all sweet. Now you are in trouble since I agreed with you.

Ezzy

ROFLMBO - all right !! Why are you participating? LOL

Sharon wrote: I try to help by PM often .

If pm is the way forward then a forum is not . Just e-mail and that will be personal.
I never did get that 'pm'd' you thing on an open forum ?...How does that help the other members ?
Anyhow...I digress ..What is said in a pm is personal and can be construed by a newcomer as 'correct' ? ...well they won't know any better anyway will they ?...They are a newcomer ! ? ..but the person sending the sweat message could be seen as a saint ? ......But the open forum don't see that always ? ..rightly or wrongly !..well you can't blame them ..they don't know ....................Kinda hitting the 'closed' or the delete ,or the edit button is not available to all . :roll: ....
Any one read 'Of Mice and Men' ? .. Those pigs man are real clever .

polmaise wrote:

Sharon wrote: I try to help by PM often .

If pm is the way forward then a forum is not . Just e-mail and that will be personal.
I never did get that 'pm'd' you thing on an open forum ?...How does that help the other members ?
Anyhow...I digress ..What is said in a pm is personal and can be construed by a newcomer as 'correct' ? ...well they won't know any better anyway will they ?...They are a newcomer ! ? ..but the person sending the sweat message could be seen as a saint ? ......But the open forum don't see that always ? ..rightly or wrongly !..well you can't blame them ..they don't know ....................Kinda hitting the 'closed' or the delete ,or the edit button is not available to all . :roll: ....
Any one read 'Of Mice and Men' ? .. Those pigs man are real clever .

It doesn't. But hopefully it helps the new member who was treated poorly hang around and try again. Highly unlikely I will be giving any advice that is outrageous. Many people help by PM when a thread turns into one big argument. There are no email addresses on a forum profile.

Too old to try to be a saint , but I can still be helpful and kind.

Not aware of any pigs in "Of Mice and Men".

I read the now locked thread and now I've read this one too but I am more confused than I was when I started ! Too many people, too many personalities and too many individual points of view for my poor wee brain cell to sort out . It all seems like a storm in a teacup to me . I correct dogs when I have to and I praise them when I want to . I don't think any sensible dog trainer is cruel because dogs don't understand cruelty and they certainly don't respond well to it.

Bill T.

Sharon wrote: Too old to try to be a saint , but I can still be helpful and kind.

Not aware of any pigs in "Of Mice and Men".

https://www.goodreads.com/work/quotes/4 ... ce-and-men

Trekmoor wrote:I read the now locked thread and now I've read this one too but I am more confused than I was when I started ! Too many people, too many personalities and too many individual points of view for my poor wee brain cell to sort out . It all seems like a storm in a teacup to me . I correct dogs when I have to and I praise them when I want to . I don't think any sensible dog trainer is cruel because dogs don't understand cruelty and they certainly don't respond well to it.

Bill T.

I think you are right on

I love learning about the old school techniques - doesn't mean one must utilize them.

Hows about a discussion on how to fix a gun-shy dog old school style...then again, that's likely best for a conversation over a beer or ten.

Seems words get transformed into perceived actions to the extreme around here..that is a shame and "pc" only dumbs things down more often than not.

I read the thread, it doesn't "advocate" anything..it answers a question like it or not.

Spy Car wrote:The shame is the moderator does remove posts that advocate animal abuse, which is what your methods are. Anyone caught using the techniques you outlined would go to jail for animal cruelty.

Even if the "means" of your "techniques" weren't as brutal as they are, the "end" of terrorizing a dog so badly that it feels "the only safe place in the world is by your side" (the stated goal) is about the worst possible outcome one could hope for with a hunting dog.

"True colors" is the right term here.

Bill

Silly-ness right here.
Amazing you can "predict" an outcome of something you know absolutely nuthin' about, Lol!, the "Amazing Kreskin" would be proud.
(And don't say "common sense" led you to that conclusion ok )
Reckon you've been training dogs for "45 yrs". too huh?

It's incredible that some of you folks got your bloomers all in a knot over some methods used a loooong time ago someone shared.
Respectfully-
Looks like a handful of the self righteous.

gonehuntin' wrote:On a thread on here, a member asked about a standard training proceedure, what it was and how it was accomplished. I answered him, neither endorsing the program, although I do, or belittling it. Rather than members simply reading it and opting to use of not use it, it turned into a thread of insults, incorrect assumptions, and gross misconceptions. When people can't discuss a method civilly, it beats me how they ever train their poor dog's. A moderator should never be forced to step in and lock one of these threads. IMO.

It truly is a shame 'Gone.
It's like the same 'ole, same 'ole, (silly & boring) argument (s) over FF'-ing. Funny how it's origin was a handfull of Pointin' Doggers' looking for a better way.
Awfully funny too-
That although the method today is different from when you were going at it at the time, debolting is still alive and well in the competitive and non-competitive training community, (well, I mean- with those that understand it ), and the goal is the same.
You're still getting the same results. It's a shame that some don't understand

Yep, it can definitely get discouraging being a new guy, just for being someone (like me), who had never had a hunting dog, or like me, had not had a dog in twenty years.

Just because we ask questions some of ya'll might think ridiculous, we ask because we're trying to take the best care of our partners as possible.

Sharon, I for one appreciate your PM's with advice.

Swampbilly wrote: Silly-ness right here.
Amazing you can "predict" an outcome of something you know absolutely nuthin' about, Lol!, the "Amazing Kreskin" would be proud.
(And don't say "common sense" led you to that conclusion ok )
Reckon you've been training dogs for "45 yrs". too huh?

It's incredible that some of you folks got your bloomers all in a knot over some methods used a loooong time ago someone shared.
Respectfully-
Looks like a handful of the self righteous.

How many old timers used a "Paintball gun" nice try. Can't recall Grandpa ever saying "back when I was a kid, we got out the paintball gun".. :roll:

It happens in every forum imaginable. I'm a fly fishing guide by trade and very active in the internet forums. To sound cocky without actually meaning to, I know what I'm doing when it comes to fly fishing much more than the next guy. But...that doesn't stop everyone on the internet from going against you. They want to feel like an expert and want other people to think they are experts. A lot of people use the internet to make themselves feel good, anyone with common sense can see it.
If the criticism isn't objective and courteous, just disregard it.
Anybody who is truly trying to help you is going to be nice about it.

This went about like I thought it would. See you guys next year.

DeLo727 wrote:It happens in every forum imaginable. I'm a fly fishing guide by trade and very active in the internet forums. To sound cocky without actually meaning to, I know what I'm doing when it comes to fly fishing much more than the next guy. But...that doesn't stop everyone on the internet from going against you. They want to feel like an expert and want other people to think they are experts. A lot of people use the internet to make themselves feel good, anyone with common sense can see it.
If the criticism isn't objective and courteous, just disregard it.
Anybody who is truly trying to help you is going to be nice about it.

Good post, Thank you.

In my experience this is how the bird dog world is.....

I am right everyone else is wrong even if I have never tried or seen your training method.

X breed of dog is the best why would you buy something else.

Your dog is too far out

Your dog is too close

All birds hold for point from a mile away

No birds hold for point from 400 yards away

FT dogs are no good for wild birds

FT dogs are the only good wild bird dogs

Blah Blah Blah Blah , this is why I hunt alone and because I am an asshole

I firmly belive there are many ways to go from here to there with a bird dog.

Some are better than others, for certain, but the reason(s) why they are better have nothing to do with what someone deems to be politically correct.

The reasons why one method might be better than another depend principally on:
The talent ability and experience of the trainer
The personality of the dog
The tools and facilities available
The personality of the trainer
The number of dogs the trainer is training(pro vs. amateur)
The end result the trainer is looking for(gun dog versus trial dog versus test dog versus companion dog)

Simply put, some methods work better for some people than others and some methods work better on some dogs than others.

Just because a method is "NEW" or "OLD" or any other descriptive adjective you might wsih to apply, does not make it a ""Good" or a "Bad" method or an "acceptable" or "unacceptable" method.

There is nothing wrong with describing different methods form going from her to there with a bird dog. if someone chooses to use that method and it works for them and the dog ends up where the trainer wants and is happy and healthy, just what is wrong with it?

If someone chooses not to use it... that is fine as well.

To those who believe that some methods are cruel, I pose the following question....

How do you think our dogs got to where they are today? How do you think their abilities were selected and developed and concentrated? how do you think the lesser physical specimens, the poorer performers, the slower learners, the genetically flawed...were eliminated from the gene pool to produce the uniformly outstanding dogs that we see today in many of the pointing dog breeds?

I will give those folks a clue... There were LOTS of hard choices made and lots of difficult, unpleasant and distasteful tasks that had d to be done.

Think about that when you espouse what is "cruel" and what is not, because we are all the beneficiaries of those hard choices and disagreeable acts. If you would not use those methods today...how can you support using the product of those methods? The phrase "forbidden fruit" comes to mind.

To some people that would be like using the results of the NAZI human experiments conducted in the concentration camps during WW II as the basis of medical research to improve the human condition.

Just something to think about. Perspective is not only about where we are today...it is also about where we came from and how we got here.

RayG

When most people look at training methods posted, the problem is that those people have not trained many dogs. A pro may have 20 dog's at a time he is working with. He might flop those dogs 3-4 times a year. That's 60-80 dog's every year he is working with. I worked at one kennel where we ran 120 dog's at a time in training with, of course, multiple trainers. My job there was to take all of the problem dog's and train them. Working with that many dog's you learn a lot.

Contrast that with the most avid amateur. It's rare one has more than 3-4 dog's at one time. He will have those dog's for 10 years then replace them. In a lifetime he won't see the number of dog's a pro sees in one year.

That's why it's so hard for some people to understand a program when they see it. They have had their loyal dog's and worked with only dog's from great breeding, with unlimited time to devote to them, in a one-on-one environment. Many times in a lifetime, they won't see a serious problem. Contrast that with a trainer that is given mainly problem dog's. You may get some that are gun-shy, bird eaters, blinkers, creepers, bolters, water haters, bird haters, cover haters, mean dog's, shy dog's; the list is endless. So you're paid to train dog's, you solve the problems and train them all. You develop highly effective short cuts because you only have the dog's a short period of time and are paid to produce. That is how every training program today came into existence; solve problems, create problems to solve greater problems, try a method, scrap a method, save a method. You are constantly experimenting, innovating, adding, subtracting, changing. That is, the good trainers are.

So when you see someone post about a training method that has been proven through thousands of dog's and hundred's of trainers, don't scoff at it and say it doesn't work. Study that method, look at the logic that developed, and see why it works. It may not be for you but that doesn't mean it isn't a good method. You also have to determine HOW MUCH PRESSURE was used implementing that method. As an example, at the kennels I worked at, EVERY DOG WENT THROUGH THE EXACT SAME PROGRAM; however the amount of pressure used differed with each dog in that program. It is the AMOUNT of pressure used that determines the severity of a method. Look at the slingshot that Spycar was so upset about. You can pull the band back one foot and barely tap a dog or use a wrist rocket, pull it back three feet, and kill him. One doesn't hurt the dog at all, the other may kill him. Common sense. Use and collar; set it on one, the dog can't feel it. Set it on high 6, he can't perform unless conditioned. Common sense. Every proven training program works for some people and not for others. The only reason it doesn't work for everyone, is the personality, preferences and abilities of each person implementing it.

gonehuntin' wrote:When most people look at training methods posted, the problem is that those people have not trained many dogs. A pro may have 20 dog's at a time he is working with. He might flop those dogs 3-4 times a year. That's 60-80 dog's every year he is working with. I worked at one kennel where we ran 120 dog's at a time in training with, of course, multiple trainers. My job there was to take all of the problem dog's and train them. Working with that many dog's you learn a lot.

Contrast that with the most avid amateur. It's rare one has more than 3-4 dog's at one time. He will have those dog's for 10 years then replace them. In a lifetime he won't see the number of dog's a pro sees in one year.

That's why it's so hard for some people to understand a program when they see it. They have had their loyal dog's and worked with only dog's from great breeding, with unlimited time to devote to them, in a one-on-one environment. Many times in a lifetime, they won't see a serious problem. Contrast that with a trainer that is given mainly problem dog's. You may get some that are gun-shy, bird eaters, blinkers, creepers, bolters, water haters, bird haters, cover haters, mean dog's, shy dog's; the list is endless. So you're paid to train dog's, you solve the problems and train them all. You develop highly effective short cuts because you only have the dog's a short period of time and are paid to produce. That is how every training program today came into existence; solve problems, create problems to solve greater problems, try a method, scrap a method, save a method. You are constantly experimenting, innovating, adding, subtracting, changing. That is, the good trainers are.

So when you see someone post about a training method that has been proven through thousands of dog's and hundred's of trainers, don't scoff at it and say it doesn't work. Study that method, look at the logic that developed, and see why it works. It may not be for you but that doesn't mean it isn't a good method. You also have to determine HOW MUCH PRESSURE was used implementing that method. As an example, at the kennels I worked at, EVERY DOG WENT THROUGH THE EXACT SAME PROGRAM; however the amount of pressure used differed with each dog in that program. It is the AMOUNT of pressure used that determines the severity of a method. Look at the slingshot that Spycar was so upset about. You can pull the band back one foot and barely tap a dog or use a wrist rocket, pull it back three feet, and kill him. One doesn't hurt the dog at all, the other may kill him. Common sense. Use and collar; set it on one, the dog can't feel it. Set it on high 6, he can't perform unless conditioned. Common sense. Every proven training program works for some people and not for others. The only reason it doesn't work for everyone, is the personality, preferences and abilities of each person implementing it.

Whether you realize it or not (and I'm fairly certain you don't) your post makes crystal clear why people who will spend dogs entire lifetimes with them are often better off not employing the techniques of so-called professionals who feel so pressed to achieve "results" in such little time that they turn to cruel and brutal methods to short-cut the process of dog training.

Far better to take the time to consistently reshape and reward desired behaviors from puppyhood onward.

The "instant fix" through the application of intense pain is not the sensible way to train dogs. Animal cruely is the hallmark of those who feel in a rush.

Bill

Bill, what you say is true and I said as much in the post. However, occasionally even the most well cared for and pampered dog's develop problems that can not be solved with cookies and love. Then, the intelligent person turns to a method. I don't believe there is any WELL TRAINED BIRD DOG on this planet that has not had a measure of force used to train it, whether you admit it or not.

gonehuntin' wrote:Bill, what you say is true and I said as much in the post. However, occasionally even the most well cared for and pampered dog's develop problems that can not be solved with cookies and love. Then, the intelligent person turns to a method. I don't believe there is any WELL TRAINED BIRD DOG on this planet that has not had a measure of force used to train it, whether you admit it or not.

I'd say an intelligent person turns to a method from day 1, when they bring a puppy home. Simplified (because I need to get the dog out) one encourages the behaviors one wants to promote in the dog and discourages those that are undesirable, knowing patience and consistency are virtues. Best way not to have "problems" is never allowing them to develop in the first place.

Additionally, developing strong bonds of teamwork between man and dog can't be underestimated. Nothing beats a dog that loves working. It is not about "pampering," but understanding dog behaviors and nurturing an enthusiasm for the job. That doesn't come from shooting dogs with marbles or spaying them with shot. Those things are not sensible.

Bill

Bill, Do you think that the three areas that cause differences in training are the person, the animal, and the tools available? What method do you use to dispatch a wounded bird you have shot when in the field? What do you do when a mosquito is biting your arm? What do you do when your dog decides to blow you off and runs the other way when you call? What do you do when you see a wounded deer lying in the ditch? What do you do when your dog ends up with a face full of quills? What do you do when your horse steps in a hole and breaks a leg?

Are you using the same methods they did 100 years ago? Are your firmly set rules going to be the same 50 years from now? Are all of the people who do something different than you going to be condemned to heck? Is there any chance that most people do what they have learned works for them and the animal?

I think that sometimes the more we talk the more out of touch we prove we are.

I think some people on this thread ride unicorns that fart rainbows to work , Ray said it best, but maybe peoples reading comprehension is not the greatest. We did not always have shock collars and we are all enjoying dogs developed by killing the unwanted so time to get off the unicorn's !!