Gun Dog Forum

Novice trainer  

I have a 3 year old Brittany who has 100 to 200 yard range. In open ground this is not a problem but the area I have to train/run/exercise has a lot of trees and squirrels, rabbits and NON bird choices. I am constantly calling him in, bending him, calling whoa ( to slow him down).

He loves to run/fast. 

When there are birds he finds them, holds his point and has a good "to hand" retrive but I am afraid by letting him run so big I am a running a risk of the problem becoming serious.

He needs the exercise.... to keep him fit and keep his behavior under control. 

Suggestions, comments, any ideas will be  appreciated.

Thanks

Just trust him and let him run. In a hunting situation my britt runs at 2 to 300 yards till she finds birds. Has learned to not loose sight of me and hunts slow and close when into the birds. She has learned to slow and check back if she is getting scent and knows she is going to crest a hill where I won't see her. In NSTRA the judges ride quads and she knows it is their job to keep her I sight so she a rocket there. This was all done by just letting her run and learn.

100 to 200 yards out is considered close hunting by some. Put a bell on him so you can track his movements or, better yet, get a tracking collar. There are also ecollars with tone that can be used to locate dogs that are out of sight.

dottie wrote:Novice trainer  

I have a 3 year old Brittany who has 100 to 200 yard range. In open ground this is not a problem but the area I have to train/run/exercise has a lot of trees and squirrels, rabbits and NON bird choices. I am constantly calling him in, bending him, calling whoa ( to slow him down).

He loves to run/fast. 

When there are birds he finds them, holds his point and has a good "to hand" retrive but I am afraid by letting him run so big I am a running a risk of the problem becoming serious.

He needs the exercise.... to keep him fit and keep his behavior under control. 

Suggestions, comments, any ideas will be  appreciated.

Thanks

I think you'd find a GPS collar comforting.

I would quit nagging and worrying and let the dog roll. Squirrels and rabbits aren't going to mess him up, but nagging all the time can eventually run down his BelTone batteries, and then you WILL have a problem.

Another vote for a GPS system. It's a great tool - wonderful safety precaution - and a some fun as well. I'll plug for the Garmin T5 Mini, a lightweight compact unit great for smaller dogs.

Garmin.

I would guess that many people wouldn't call 100 to 200 yds range a big runner. Everyone has a different interpetation of range. One of mine will run 800 yds if allowed. Was out of my comfort zone when out of sight. I got an alpha. Much more at ease knowing the direction and distance. It signals you when on point. I trained bend with the tone. This allows me to pick the range without making a bunch of noise. Has been a great tool that I just don't want to be without anymore.

I'd like to add that this dog has never lost me. She has always returned. But it sure adds a lot of comfort knowing where the dog is.

Garmin and let him roll.

dottie -

I posted this a bit ago in answer to a flushing dog owner who got a new pointing dog. I think it might apply.


You can condition the dog to hunt however you like and it will do that...more or less. As neil said, a solid recall and when the dog gets out as far as you want...call it in. Another thing you can do, which might be more useful in some situations it teach the dog to "bend " or turn on command. When the dog gets out to where you want it not to venture farther away, issue the appropriate turn command and have the dog cross in front of you. you can condition the dog to work back and forth in front of you which can actually be quite effective.

One thing I must tell you, for your consideration. A pointing dog's job is to find birds...AND ...to point and hold them for you until you get there. If the dog is 20, or 50 or 200 yards in front of you and it points and holds the bird until you get there...what does it really matter how far away the dog is?

It comes down to a question of trust. Do you trust the dog and its training or not? If the dog is not trustworthy, it has not been adequately trained. if it is trustworthy, and if it , in turn, has learned to trust that you will get there and kill the bird for him, it will stand there for as long as it takes for you to get there.

The trust does not happen overnight. It will take some time and it is a fair bet that you will gradually let your dog stretch out in more open cover because it will find more birds that way.

Pointing dogs do it differently than flushers. Not better, not worse...just different. You will see. You might grow to like it just as much, maybe even more.

One of the greatest thrills in the world of upland game is to find your dog on point...locked up tighter than a tick...just waiting for YOU. You go over that hill or break out of the thicket to see your dog pointing.

But that cannot happen if the dog is never allowed to get out of your sight. There is an uneasy feeling when a dog goes over the hill or disappears into a thicket. But when you top that rise or come out on the back side of that thicketand the dog has a bird nailed down... that feeling of unease turns to one of pure joy.

Enjoy.

RayG


A Garmin Astro will help to reduce your stress level.

I will also tell you this:

I have been hunting behind big running pointers all my life. I mean Over the hill and GONE pointers. There is and always be a little uneasy feeling when the dog punches out and goes out of sight. But in over fifty years of huntiung behind these kinds of dogs I have NEVER YET permanently lost a dog. Remember, much of this was well before tracking devices or beepers. The dogs came back if they were not on point. If they were on point they would wait for you to get there.

If a dog likes you and wants to hunt with you...it will. You won't lose it because it won't lose you. Trust the bond you have made and trust the dog.

RayG

greg jacobs wrote:I would guess that many people wouldn't call 100 to 200 yds range a big runner. Everyone has a different interpetation of range. One of mine will run 800 yds if allowed. Was out of my comfort zone when out of sight. I got an alpha. Much more at ease knowing the direction and distance. It signals you when on point. I trained bend with the tone. This allows me to pick the range without making a bunch of noise. Has been a great tool that I just don't want to be without anymore.

Not trying to start an argument or sound argumentative with the following question... But what bird holds long enough for you to travel 800 yards? Are you on horseback or ATV? Do points at this distance produce birds usually or does it require a release and relocation?

These are real question because I've never hunted where you're from.

Hi Mnaj, I've never walked 800 yards or even 600 yards to a point but I have walked 3-400 yards several times and the bird(s) still been there. Much depends on how far off from the bird the dog has pointed and on how cautious or how hidden it's approach to the bird has been.

I've been told many times that a dog's point will "pin" a bird in place but I don't think I'd want to depend on the bird staying put until I'd walked more than a few hundred yards .....and I do mean "a few."

My own Brittany , on wide open, "easy" ground will go maybe 2-400 yards which is more than enough for me. If I think she is trying to pull out even further I turn whistle her or even recall her and start again.
On ground with a lot of cover I "spaniel" her. I insist she hunts within reasonably close range , no more and very often less than 100 yards. That is done by using the turn whistle too.

Bill T.

mnaj_springer wrote:

greg jacobs wrote:I would guess that many people wouldn't call 100 to 200 yds range a big runner. Everyone has a different interpetation of range. One of mine will run 800 yds if allowed. Was out of my comfort zone when out of sight. I got an alpha. Much more at ease knowing the direction and distance. It signals you when on point. I trained bend with the tone. This allows me to pick the range without making a bunch of noise. Has been a great tool that I just don't want to be without anymore.

Not trying to start an argument or sound argumentative with the following question... But what bird holds long enough for you to travel 800 yards? Are you on horseback or ATV? Do points at this distance produce birds usually or does it require a release and relocation?

These are real question because I've never hunted where you're from.

A well trained dog will hold a bird at 800 yards , but most likely the handler /hunter is on a horse if the dog is working that far out. jmo

Well I'm on foot always. Her natural range is pretty big. She is comfortable hitting objectives or following a scent that takes her out past 800 yards which is where the alpha turns to .5 miles. She pins more birds than a closer working dog because she covers a lot of ground. I can bend her around with the tone but it's not that fun for either of us hacking on her. It's big country when I'm up in the sage. That white spot is her on point. I've cropped the picture so you can see her. I stood by the pickup and she hunted that whole bowl that she is in the bottom of.

Maybe age has something to do with it . At 70 I'm not hunting at that distance - hoofing it that far out all day.

At 59 it isnt as easy as 30 years ago. She is probably at 400 yards. She will hunt up to the top of the close hill which is close to 800 yds. I'll beep her so she doesn't go over out of sight. If she doesn't find a covey I don't have to walk. A lot of the spots I have to walk to though. If I let her out right here she will head straight for the trees. She knows quail are there. Again at least 800 yds.

Sorry op kind of off topic
Greg J

Thanks everyone,
I appreciate all of the comments and suggestions. As I said in the orginal post I am a novice. My only other hunting dog was a Springer and having a pointer is very new to me.
I thought I understood "bending" but I would appreciate more information about "bending" and techniques used to teach it.
As a newbee I have really appreciated the help I have received from members.

Thanks for answering. I've never hunted cover where that would be proper/possible. The majority of what I do is ruffed grouse and pheasant. I might get lost after an 800 yard hike in the grouse woods haha

greg jacobs wrote:At 59 it isnt as easy as 30 years ago. She is probably at 400 yards. She will hunt up to the top of the close hill which is close to 800 yds. I'll beep her so she doesn't go over out of sight. If she doesn't find a covey I don't have to walk. A lot of the spots I have to walk to though.

rsz_20141102_123215.jpg

If I let her out right here she will head straight for the trees. She knows quail are there. Again at least 800 yds.

Sorry op kind of off topic
Greg J

Your country is like mine and at 74 it is much easier to sit and watch the dog than walking down there to check it out.

mnaj_springer wrote:

greg jacobs wrote:I would guess that many people wouldn't call 100 to 200 yds range a big runner. Everyone has a different interpetation of range. One of mine will run 800 yds if allowed. Was out of my comfort zone when out of sight. I got an alpha. Much more at ease knowing the direction and distance. It signals you when on point. I trained bend with the tone. This allows me to pick the range without making a bunch of noise. Has been a great tool that I just don't want to be without anymore.

Not trying to start an argument or sound argumentative with the following question... But what bird holds long enough for you to travel 800 yards? Are you on horseback or ATV? Do points at this distance produce birds usually or does it require a release and relocation?

These are real question because I've never hunted where you're from.

Thanks for giving me a lead in to one of my all-time favorite stories. I live in Eastern Kansas and sometimes hunt big pastures. Years ago I had a rock solid Brittany out of field trial stock that would really run. I was headed home one day and saw a neighbor working on a gate on a hilltop in one of my favorite places. I stopped and asked for permission to hunt and let the dog out when he said it was ok. I stood and talked with him for awhile as the dog hunted the pasture. When she got about a half mile out, she locked up. My neighbor thought I was wasting my time when I started walking toward her but there was still 8 or 10 bobs in front of her when I got there about 10 minutes later. I have another story or two about that dog and even productive points held even longer but I must admit she was truly exceptional.

I do hunt from horseback and UTV, but mostly from foot.

Not all birds will hold every time, though many will; and the big running dogs will find so many more birds that it works out in my favor.

With my Kawsaki Mule and Garmin, I let the dogs hunt.

mnaj_springer wrote:

greg jacobs wrote:I would guess that many people wouldn't call 100 to 200 yds range a big runner. Everyone has a different interpetation of range. One of mine will run 800 yds if allowed. Was out of my comfort zone when out of sight. I got an alpha. Much more at ease knowing the direction and distance. It signals you when on point. I trained bend with the tone. This allows me to pick the range without making a bunch of noise. Has been a great tool that I just don't want to be without anymore.

Not trying to start an argument or sound argumentative with the following question... But what bird holds long enough for you to travel 800 yards? Are you on horseback or ATV? Do points at this distance produce birds usually or does it require a release and relocation?

These are real question because I've never hunted where you're from.

It depends on the type of birds, cover, weather, hunter pressure etc.... My dogs may get out to 400 yards but 100 to 200 is avg. I have seen birds just fly off before I got there but mostly by the time I get to them with pheasants they have to relocate. With Quail as long as its not to windy the birds usually hold, in my experience wind makes Quail jumpy . Those are the only birds I have enough experience with to comment on

I was up hunting huns few days back. All but one covey wild flushed out at 200 to 400 yds from me. I had my pup that was probably hunting inside of 100 to 150 yds all the time. Me not having to say anything or beep him. I'm thinking they were jumping more because of me than my dog. So does the person or the dog cause them to flush sooner.

I was really hoping one of you more experienced trainers could give an overview of training to bend or turn on the whistle. How about someone giving it a shot.

suggestion : start a new thread on "bending" and you'll get lots of help I'm sure.

mnaj_springer wrote:Thanks for answering. I've never hunted cover where that would be proper/possible. The majority of what I do is ruffed grouse and pheasant. I might get lost after an 800 yard hike in the grouse woods haha

on average my dogs range 150-200 yards in the grouse woods, 800 yards in the grouse woods without a gps may as well be 5 miles but 800 yards with a gps is just 800 yards, before I had a gps I worried a lot about the dog and me being lost, now I just let um roll, on one outing this past year I lost my dog for a bit, on this day I forgot my gps at home :roll: I search for her for what seemed like forever, probably more like 15 mins when I found her she was on point it was a very proud moment, just wish I would of hit the bird

greg jacobs wrote: give an overview of training to bend or turn on the whistle. How about someone giving it a shot.

I train pups to turn to whistle by treating pointing pups as spaniels to begin with .....in other words at close to me distances. I do this with no check cord and no e-collar , just me, a pup and a whistle. All I do is to hunt as directly as possible into the wind during the pups early experiences and turn away from the pup as it progresses up the field while giving the turn whistle command , I use two "pips." An arm signal can be given at this stage but that can often be dispensed with later.

Most pups like to feel secure in the knowledge of being "with" their owners so the pup hears the whistle and sees me going in another direction so it turns to do the same. The area being hunted is then traversed with the pup making big zig-zags into the wind and me making smaller ones.
In time the pups zig-zags become greater in length while mine's become lesser. Sometimes all that is needed , once a pup has got the hang of zig-zagging into the wind , is for the trainer to only move his shoulders as if about to turn as he whistles and the pup anticipates the rest of the signal (the walk-away from the pup) and it will turn to the shoulder movement plus the whistle.

Once a pup has got used to always having the wind in it's favour as it seeks bird scent , it will always want the wind in it's favour and it will hunt the wind accordingly even if it is a cheek wind. The trainer uses the turn whistle then at as far out from him in front as he wants the pup to turn at. There are no "corrections" used when doing this , only the anxiety pups feel about being left behind by the trainer.

It is very probable that overlaying this with an e-collar at a later stage would sometimes be useful but I don't do that .....and sometimes suffer the consequences ! :roll:

Not sure how clear that is but it's past my bedtime over here .

Bill T.

100-200 yards is not "big" running, especially when you strap a Garmin on them. I agree with what everyone else says, train your Brit to hold point, and let it roll.... I hunt with someone who wants a close working yo-yo. His dogs make 50 yard casts and then he's calling them back. We were in SD in early December hunting an area where we saw a rooster land. He took his dog, and I took my Brit into the area to find it. He was hacking at his dog trying to keep it in the area we saw the bird land while I let my Brit go and stopped paying attention. 5 minutes later, after his dog thoroughly worked the area we saw the bird land, my GPS beeped that my young Brit was on point 120 yards from us. We walked over to her and killed the pheasant. 2 weeks ago we were hunting wild quail in GA and I had my trial Brit with me, who I almost never see while hunting. At the end of the day she had 5 coveys and two singles. The singles werent associated with any coveys we saw. The close working dog ended up with 1 covey. Your dog is the one with the nose, let it use it, and trust your dog. Once you become comfortable with letting your dog roll, you will find more birds.

Thanks for this post- great information and I feel much better about my dog- I also have what i consider a big running brittany- I pretty much figured I just messed up in the early part of her training and let her range to far.
I do get help from a trainer and asked him about this and he was adamant about letting her do her thing as long as she is holding-
not that I didn't trust my trainer.... but you go out and see other dogs not ranging very far it makes you second guess yourself.

"She pins more birds than a closer working dog because she covers a lot of ground. "

You ARE hunting birds, right? You want your dog to hunt, right?

Let the dog roll. It is often difficult for a new pointing dog owner to overcome 'distance anxiety' and 'control anxiety'. 200 yards is a close working dog by my definition. Have faith in your dog. don't hack him - show him that you trust him and make him responsible for keeping track of you and keeping in touch.

RayGubernat wrote:dottie -

I posted this a bit ago in answer to a flushing dog owner who got a new pointing dog. I think it might apply.


You can condition the dog to hunt however you like and it will do that...more or less. As neil said, a solid recall and when the dog gets out as far as you want...call it in. Another thing you can do, which might be more useful in some situations it teach the dog to "bend " or turn on command. When the dog gets out to where you want it not to venture farther away, issue the appropriate turn command and have the dog cross in front of you. you can condition the dog to work back and forth in front of you which can actually be quite effective.

One thing I must tell you, for your consideration. A pointing dog's job is to find birds...AND ...to point and hold them for you until you get there. If the dog is 20, or 50 or 200 yards in front of you and it points and holds the bird until you get there...what does it really matter how far away the dog is?

It comes down to a question of trust. Do you trust the dog and its training or not? If the dog is not trustworthy, it has not been adequately trained. if it is trustworthy, and if it , in turn, has learned to trust that you will get there and kill the bird for him, it will stand there for as long as it takes for you to get there.

The trust does not happen overnight. It will take some time and it is a fair bet that you will gradually let your dog stretch out in more open cover because it will find more birds that way.

Pointing dogs do it differently than flushers. Not better, not worse...just different. You will see. You might grow to like it just as much, maybe even more.

One of the greatest thrills in the world of upland game is to find your dog on point...locked up tighter than a tick...just waiting for YOU. You go over that hill or break out of the thicket to see your dog pointing.

But that cannot happen if the dog is never allowed to get out of your sight. There is an uneasy feeling when a dog goes over the hill or disappears into a thicket. But when you top that rise or come out on the back side of that thicketand the dog has a bird nailed down... that feeling of unease turns to one of pure joy.

Enjoy.

RayG


A Garmin Astro will help to reduce your stress level.

I will also tell you this:

I have been hunting behind big running pointers all my life. I mean Over the hill and GONE pointers. There is and always be a little uneasy feeling when the dog punches out and goes out of sight. But in over fifty years of huntiung behind these kinds of dogs I have NEVER YET permanently lost a dog. Remember, much of this was well before tracking devices or beepers. The dogs came back if they were not on point. If they were on point they would wait for you to get there.

If a dog likes you and wants to hunt with you...it will. You won't lose it because it won't lose you. Trust the bond you have made and trust the dog.

RayG

I have follow Dottie's posts for some time now, quite honestly I have always thought that from the questions asked and issues Dottie discusses about Dotties Brittany,Dottie would be much happier with a flushing Spaniel.The pointing dogs lynch pin is the find and point response. This a very independent behavior it requires no human interaction. The Flushing dog 's lynch pin is the retrieve and with that requires a great deal of team work between dog and handler.

get you a gps and let the dog run you can keep track of dog and you and dog can enjoy being out

I'm having the same problem with my Brit. He is 14 months old. I'm in eastern pa and hunt on some stocked game lands here and in jersey. I also go to a preserve to hunt planted birds. The problems I have are he doesn't seem to adapt to surroundings. In an open field I can see him and constantly recall him or turn him ( although I think he's starting to fake point to get me to to follow him then he goes again) but when we are in thick woods I can't keep up. He doesn't check back and he has bust birds. I think it's because he sees them running. I know he's young still. I've hunted him probably 30some times this season and killed about 80 birds over him. The majority at preserves where we have 10 put out. He definitely holds hens better then roosters. He is from Indiana and from a strong field trial stock. This was my lack of homework. He won't retreive either but that's another story. I mostly feel like he's hunting for himself and it's not a partnership. He misses birds because he is not quartering. We later get them when we back track to cover a portion of the field I know he missed.

If my dog ranged 200 yds I wouldn't be able to hear him and he won't be able to hear me. I think it's good to note where your hunting. I would prefer 25 yd sweep to the left and then a 25 yd sweep to the right. And I could walk at a nice pace in the middle with a buddy or two at my sides. Is this too much to ask?

Emaisch1080 wrote:I'm having the same problem with my Brit. He is 14 months old. I'm in eastern pa and hunt on some stocked game lands here and in jersey. I also go to a preserve to hunt planted birds. The problems I have are he doesn't seem to adapt to surroundings. In an open field I can see him and constantly recall him or turn him ( although I think he's starting to fake point to get me to to follow him then he goes again) but when we are in thick woods I can't keep up. He doesn't check back and he has bust birds. I think it's because he sees them running. I know he's young still. I've hunted him probably 30some times this season and killed about 80 birds over him. The majority at preserves where we have 10 put out. He definitely holds hens better then roosters. He is from Indiana and from a strong field trial stock. This was my lack of homework. He won't retreive either but that's another story. I mostly feel like he's hunting for himself and it's not a partnership. He misses birds because he is not quartering. We later get them when we back track to cover a portion of the field I know he missed.

Your situation with your dog is quite a bit different from the OP's. Dotties' s dog is 3 yrs. old and a broke honest dog. Your dog is an overgrown puppy that is still trying to figure out a whole lot of stuff. The OP's dog appears to have "earned" the right to be trusted.

Obviously yours has not so to allow an untrustworthy dog too much freedom can result in the dog making choices that we do not agree with.

Some of the very best horseback shooting dog field trial trainers I know, keep there young dogs close...and I mean REAL CLOSE, while they are young. The dogs learn to turn and to go with the handler when cued right from the start. They are kept tightly in check as youngsters so the trainer can make corrections as needed in a timely manner and so that the dog learns thoroughly what it needs to learn. They do not let the dog out until that dog has shown that it can be trusted. in other words, the dog has to "earn" its freedom, little by little.

If you train and encourage with a firm, but gentle hand, you will not squelch the desire in a bird dog, especially one that is field trial bred, Once the dog has "earned" the right to a little freedom because it is doing what you want it to do, it will have incentive to continue to do what you want, thus earning more freedom for itself. It is a question of mutual trust, but I personally have never seen a well bred field trial dog that would not do its best to fill up the country if the opportunity presented itself, and the handler allowed it. The dog just has to learn when it must dial it down and when it should dial it up. that takes time...and shoeleather.

A 14 month old puppy is still...a puppy, at least mentally. It needs boundaries, it needs direction, it needs its abilities , and its drive to be molded and channeled in constructive directions.

In the case you are describing, it also needs time, patience and persistence. It needs a trainer with a clear idea of what they want the dog to do in certain situations AND the knowledge and will to train that dog to conform to those ideas when they occur. Be that trainer. Be that partner. Be that leader. That's your job. Do it as well as you can.

RayG

RayGubernat wrote:

Emaisch1080 wrote:I'm having the same problem with my Brit. He is 14 months old. I'm in eastern pa and hunt on some stocked game lands here and in jersey. I also go to a preserve to hunt planted birds. The problems I have are he doesn't seem to adapt to surroundings. In an open field I can see him and constantly recall him or turn him ( although I think he's starting to fake point to get me to to follow him then he goes again) but when we are in thick woods I can't keep up. He doesn't check back and he has bust birds. I think it's because he sees them running. I know he's young still. I've hunted him probably 30some times this season and killed about 80 birds over him. The majority at preserves where we have 10 put out. He definitely holds hens better then roosters. He is from Indiana and from a strong field trial stock. This was my lack of homework. He won't retreive either but that's another story. I mostly feel like he's hunting for himself and it's not a partnership. He misses birds because he is not quartering. We later get them when we back track to cover a portion of the field I know he missed.

Your situation with your dog is quite a bit different from the OP's. Dotties' s dog is 3 yrs. old and a broke honest dog. Your dog is an overgrown puppy that is still trying to figure out a whole lot of stuff. The OP's dog appears to have "earned" the right to be trusted.

Obviously yours has not so to allow an untrustworthy dog too much freedom can result in the dog making choices that we do not agree with.

Some of the very best horseback shooting dog field trial trainers I know, keep there young dogs close...and I mean REAL CLOSE, while they are young. The dogs learn to turn and to go with the handler when cued right from the start. They are kept tightly in check as youngsters so the trainer can make corrections as needed in a timely manner and so that the dog learns thoroughly what it needs to learn. They do not let the dog out until that dog has shown that it can be trusted. in other words, the dog has to "earn" its freedom, little by little.

If you train and encourage with a firm, but gentle hand, you will not squelch the desire in a bird dog, especially one that is field trial bred, Once the dog has "earned" the right to a little freedom because it is doing what you want it to do, it will have incentive to continue to do what you want, thus earning more freedom for itself. It is a question of mutual trust, but I personally have never seen a well bred field trial dog that would not do its best to fill up the country if the opportunity presented itself, and the handler allowed it. The dog just has to learn when it must dial it down and when it should dial it up. that takes time...and shoeleather.

A 14 month old puppy is still...a puppy, at least mentally. It needs boundaries, it needs direction, it needs its abilities , and its drive to be molded and channeled in constructive directions.

In the case you are describing, it also needs time, patience and persistence. It needs a trainer with a clear idea of what they want the dog to do in certain situations AND the knowledge and will to train that dog to conform to those ideas when they occur. Be that trainer. Be that partner. Be that leader. That's your job. Do it as well as you can.

RayG

Thanks for the reply. So, would u suggest using the e collar as an electric fence and continually recall or turn him at boundaries. A check cord doesn't really work in the thick woods.

EM -

I can't say for sure, mostly because I haven't seen the dog and don't know just what you have.

If your dog does not turn on command, I might suggest going back to the checkcord in open fields and making certain the dog knows and obeys the turn command. Then I would overlay the e-collar and proceed from there. I might also instill a "hunt close" command.

The first thuing you need to do is make sure the dog listens and obeys the commands that you give it.

You might do a search on bending techniques on this or other chat boards.

Sorry I can't be more specific, but a 14 month old dog can be in a lot of different places mentally. How you should proceed is really contingent on just where the dog is in its training.

It is always better to back up to something and some place in the dog's training that it knows very well and go forward from there.
\
RayG

[ So, would u suggest using the e collar as an electric fence and continually recall or turn him at boundaries. A check cord doesn't really work in the thick woods.[/quote] EM

I just use a loud trained "YOHHHHH!!!" to turn my dog. I don't think an e collar is needed for that purpose. Also don't think you need an expensive Garmin , although if you have the money go for it. I use the locator feature on the Dogtra 2500. Works just fine for the distances you are talking about.