Gun Dog Forum

This short little film shows a friend of mine who lives nearby working his GSP's . He is trying to show variations in pointing "style" that happen according to different game and different "find" situations. The little film also shows something that is done here but isn't usually done in America .....the commanded flush. We find a commanded flush to be a very useful thing when working thick cover.
There is no shooting in the film , he was just taking the dogs for a walk.

https://youtu.be/n3aIOCRnYFQ

Bill T.

Nice video the point on the rabbit is cool I have never seen a Jack hold for point but a young one might,

Do you have Porcupine in Scotland? I think that is why most of us don't command flush but if you can read the point it could be useful; especially when by yourself.

Grant

There's only one porcupine in Scotland .....my wife !
Seriously, no , there are no porcupines. We have hedgehogs but they pose no danger at all. Some dogs delight in finding and retrieving them . Flushing dogs of any kind are not in danger from the great majority of British wildlife, I watch my dogs responses to adders but I have never had a dog bitten by one or seen a dog bitten by one, they are not very aggressive and their venom is weak compared to just about any other snake. Their venom can kill a dog but it very seldom ever happens.

The most dangerous thing any of my dogs has ever flushed was a boar that had gone feral as a piglet .......it scared the heck out of me when she flushed that on command . I'd been expecting a fox to run out as my Brittany bitch's hair used to rise all the way along her neck and back if she pointed any carnivorous animal. The boar she flushed came out of the thick cover straight at me and I nearly turned it into bacon ! I'd "read" my dog but not quite correctly !

Points on rabbits are fairly common here and rabbits are considered to be "game" in our Hunt-point-retrieve trials. I think perhaps our hares are more similar to your Jack Rabbits but our dogs point them too as we also consider them to be "game."
I'm not very sure how your spaniel trials work but we hold trials on rabbits here for our spaniels and I find those trials a good bit more exciting and interesting than the trials held on birds.
You are missing out on some terrific work and great fun if your spaniels don't get to hunt rabbits. They are very good for training young spaniels on too, nothing else I know of gets a pup going through thick, nasty cover with such enthusiasm.

Sorry ! I have just dragged a red herring right across my own thread ! :roll:

Bill T.

I was on a shoot with Tommy Breckney and Andy Cullen when Tommy's Young GSP pointed a Robin in a small bush on our walk back to the truck. The point (stance) was the same as I had seen when there was a pheasant or a partridge .The handler just called the dog off point ! Off course .

Perhaps (I don't know?) It could be the nearer the dog is to the game rather than the 'type of game' that creates a particular 'point' ? ..Mix that with experience on that game and it could provide a picture that some would like to see/believe.

Anyhow, if it points on live game I would be happy,no matter what it was. If it remains steady after the flush and shot and is commanded to retrieve I'll be fulfilled.

In general The rabbits I have run into are cottontails , snowshoe hares and jack rabbits.

In the part of Canada I have hunted cottontails are usually in southern grouse country and jacks are on the prairie The hares are in the mountains and northern boreal forest. in the places I have hunted in Canada the rabbit populations are thin enough I don't think it would be an actual problem mix bagging it, the places I hunt rabbit never closes so bird season is rabbit season. I have seen picture of places state side where the jacks are so thick your dog would never be off point.

It is common belief on this side of pond that hunting fur with your bird dog will "ruin" your dog that attitude prevails with "flush on command", a concept that has me scratching my head.

Is there any reason why we can's porcupine break like folks snake break?

trek just to give some context the going rate for a vet to remove a porcupine quill is about $2 they are barbed, nasty and can cause real problems, and really the only valid reason to argue against flush on command.

http://www.vin.com/vetzinsight/default. ... id=5828339

aulrich wrote:just to give some context the going rate for a vet to remove a porcupine quill is about $2 they are barbed, nasty and can cause real problems, and really the only valid reason to argue against flush on command.

Hmmm? Interesting , following the original post about 'How the dog points' on different game,one could 'read the tell' of a Pine?

aulrich wrote: Is there any reason why we can's porcupine break like folks snake break?

No reason at all. Only did it to one of my dogs after his first encounter. If they point them I don't worry about it much.

polmaise wrote:

aulrich wrote:just to give some context the going rate for a vet to remove a porcupine quill is about $2 they are barbed, nasty and can cause real problems, and really the only valid reason to argue against flush on command.

Hmmm? Interesting , following the original post about 'How the dog points' on different game,one could 'read the tell' of a Pine?

I guess I am not observant enough because I have never been able to tell if my dogs are pointing Huns, Sharpies, Ruffs or Pheasant - or rabbits, coyotes, deer or porkies. :roll:

slistoe wrote:[
I guess I am not observant enough because I have never been able to tell if my dogs are pointing Huns, Sharpies, Ruffs or Pheasant - or rabbits, coyotes, deer or porkies. :roll:

Me neither! ..If it points there is something there! ..If it points and there is nothing there , than that's a different story.

aulrich wrote:


trek just to give some context the going rate for a vet to remove a porcupine quill is about $2 they are barbed, nasty and can cause real problems, and really the only valid reason to argue against flush on command.

http://www.vin.com/vetzinsight/default. ... id=5828339

I appreciate that having a dog flush could be dangerous to the dog and expensive for you where you live so I am not trying to say flushing game should be done as we do. We do find it very useful though.
??????? What happens when a natural flushing dog like a spaniel or a lab finds a pocupine ? Are those breeds aversion trained to avoid them ? Is it left to the porcupine to provide the aversion therapy ?
Sorry for all the questions that probably seem pretty stupid to you but I have no experience of having to do this .....except for sheep !

Bill T.

Trekmoor wrote:

aulrich wrote:


trek just to give some context the going rate for a vet to remove a porcupine quill is about $2 they are barbed, nasty and can cause real problems, and really the only valid reason to argue against flush on command.

http://www.vin.com/vetzinsight/default. ... id=5828339

I appreciate that having a dog flush could be dangerous to the dog and expensive for you where you live so I am not trying to say flushing game should be done as we do. We do find it very useful though.
??????? What happens when a natural flushing dog like a spaniel or a lab finds a pocupine ? Are those breeds aversion trained to avoid them ? Is it left to the porcupine to provide the aversion therapy ?
Sorry for all the questions that probably seem pretty stupid to you but I have no experience of having to do this .....except for sheep !

Bill T.

Some dogs NEVER learn.

What Sharon said, as I understand it some never learn, with my limited experience with dogs I had expected at least one encounter as a "right of passage", still might get it.

I have only seen mine point a rabbit once, he will track them, one day I watched him track a rabbit in and around the mother in-laws garden for a good half hour

That same day he caught and killed a small woodchuck and with fur that seems to be the way he works.

I can tell when there is hot coyote scent around, his body language totally changes and that usually gets me reaching for the e-collar, it can take just about full power to change his mind.

Sharon wrote: Some dogs NEVER learn.

They 'all learn' !
Some Teach them ?..Agreed there are a few that are beyond teaching!?..
Those others that get rigid with 'He/she' knows the difference between the coyote or the next door neighbours trash can may have a problem on their hands in the field

That's my kind of pointing dog

Cicada wrote:
Do you have Porcupine in Scotland? I think that is why most of us don't command flush but if you can read the point it could be useful; especially when by yourself.

Grant

Funny story about porcupine - I had an EXTREMELY close call 2 weekends ago. I was out for a grouse hunt and we were nearing the end of the hunt so the dog was slowing down a bit. I looked over to see what he was doing and I saw him rolling along a fence line... my first thought was oh crap, he's rolling in something dead... then I noticed it moving. There was a porcupine backed up into the cedar rail fence and Jake was rolling against it. The porcupine was just curling up. It was the middle of the day so I think perhaps it had been sleeping tucked into the fence when he found it. I yelled right away for Jake to come and he came right away. Talk about a close one! I don't know why the porky didn't feel the need to swat my dummy in the face with a bunch of quills but I sure was lucky. As we walked on I saw the porcupine slowly saunter along its way. Whew!

Funny story about sheep poop . The dog went to eat it and I said 'leave that' !..I have used this command before with my dogs ,so You are not allowed to use it under trade description laws! ..You may use your own commands such as No or ah ah! But that is of no concern of mine ! But you can't use the trade mark command 'Leave that' ! ..That is mine ....No hedgehogs or porcupines or sheep poo or snakes or any other foreign critters have we got in our gob ...Good flusher's on game though

I tell them "leave it" - so you are coming dangerously close to infringing on my copyright.

slistoe wrote:I tell them "leave it" - so you are coming dangerously close to infringing on my copyright.

I have used that for years

ezzy333 wrote:

slistoe wrote:I tell them "leave it" - so you are coming dangerously close to infringing on my copyright.

I have used that for years

I would say I have used it for all my life but even that wouldn't come close to being long enough would it!
The copyright is yours.

Here is another example of a "commanded flush". I agree Bill, this is a very useful command. I call it a "flush/stop" cue. Here is the text that was included with the video. It helps explain the technique.

Here is a young Pointer learning to flush on cue. Or as I say, the dog is learning to "present the bird to the guns". I slowed the video down just as I give the cue (a quick movement of my shoulders toward the bird). I want the dog to believe that his stopping, after the flush, causes the gun to go off. He already knows that when the gun goes off, he will often be rewarded with the bird.

https://youtu.be/7AS45jbjEwE



Brad Higgins
http://www.HigginsGundogs.com

Higgins Gundogs hunting etiquette

Dogs: Stay in touch and handle well. Always honor another dog's point, be steady when necessary and manage the birds for the gun.
Handlers: Be silent in the hunt. Allow the dog the freedom to do his work. Nurture the natural retrieve.

slistoe wrote:

ezzy333 wrote:

slistoe wrote:I tell them "leave it" - so you are coming dangerously close to infringing on my copyright.

I have used that for years

I would say I have used it for all my life but even that wouldn't come close to being long enough would it!
The copyright is yours.

Nope, no copyright as I will gladly share anything I have or do.

Hi Brad, the usual flush command given in Britain is a vocal one possibly accompanied by a hand signal but the hand signal should not be required ....most folk just seem to do it. The command can also be a whistled one . I sometimes use that but few other people do. I discovered (by accident) that the whistle is multi-functional as far a dog is concerned. I trained my dogs to begin to hunt by whistle then extended that to using the same whistle to move them on if I thought they were dwelling on old scent , or rabbit holes ! From there I accidentally found out that I could use that same whistle to cause the dogs to flush.

I found this very useful but not usually in an actual shooting situation. I used to do spring and late summer grouse counts for a couple of shooting estates and during the spring ones when I was counting and marking the presence of grouse pairs in various areas I did an awful lot of climbing up steep hillsides among the heather to reach my dogs on point up there. That's when laziness took hold of me ! I began to whistle the dogs to move in to flush the grouse from where I stood down the hillside from them.

Doing that saved me an awful lot of hill climbing and since I had already trained the dogs not to chase following flushes it did no harm at all to their training or to the birds.

If I have had sufficient flushes to train my dogs well on then the birds rising into the air will have become their command to stop to flush , I will not need to give the dogs a visible stop cue or an audible one. The rising birds command the stop to flush in the same way as spaniels can be taught to sit to the birds and rabbits they have flushed.
The only equipment needed to train for this is sufficient birds to practice it with. I would think pigeons could be used but although I have access to pigeons and have two radio operated release cages I very seldom ever use them, they haven't been used for about 3 years now. Wild birds have been used . Wild birds are only available to me when "dogging-in" during about 2 months in September and October and again, but in far lesser numbers, when I can hunt the dogs during February and March for the left-over birds from the shooting season .

This may not seem like enough time or enough on-going practice for the dogs but it seems to work out fine perhaps with a few reminders to the dogs at the beginnings of these time periods.

Birds can teach a dog things far better than I can so I just let them do it.

Bill T.

Very good read! Thanks.