Where do I go from here? Training went horribly wrong

[Cactusjack]

Hello all,

New member here and 1st time owner of a 14 month old GSP (Otto) that my family and I have owned since he was 8 weeks old. A little quick background info.I am new to upland hunting and never have trained a pointing dog. We have two acres that Otto runs on and this is where I primarily train him. I also have access to roughly 400 acres, but is it mostly overgrown with pine and mixed hardwoods that has minimal open area with no upland game that I know about, but he occasionally runs into a few turkey though.

Otto has been taught the basics, sit, down, stay and here and does well with those commands as well as my release command of O.K. For better or worse, and due not having access to real birds I have been using the wing on string method. He points and holds on the wing in places that are easy to see, but will rush in and flush the wing when I cast it in cover. His retrieving skills are on point and brings back the bumper to my hand.

Last week I went and purchased 8 quail that would be his first intro to live birds other than the ones in our back yard and around the bird feeders. This is where it went horribly wrong. I lost five right off the bat trying to transfer them to a cage. Lost the last three the next morning when i was prepping to start my training. Those next three landed in the yard along my fence line. I figured I would try to salvage the training with what birds I had left and put Otto on his check cord to introduce him to the birds. He tracked the birds down once in the vicinity and saw them then went nuts, which I understand due to his never introduced to live birds. He was dam near choking himself as I was attempting to hold him back. Needless to say the quail flushed over the fence line and were gone. he spent the rest of the afternoon running that fence line back and forth trying to find those birds again. My questions are numerous and elementary but would love to hear what I need to work on.

Should I have just let him chase the birds on his own instead of using a check cord so he might learn he cant rush in? I know it won't happen on three birds.
What should I work on with him next. I know that no birds = no bird dog, but I am now reading up on building a pigeon coop for training. I can't afford to keep buying quail, so I believe I may have to go the pigeon route and mix in quail when I have extra funds.

Could someone explain to me the how and when I should train him on WHOA command, I have read that WHOA has nothing to do with birds. Is this correct? Also I'm not sure on how to introduce him to live shots. I shoot on my property with small caliber pistols, as well as plinking with a .22. Whenever I do shoot on the property Otto stays on the deck and I'm on the lower end of my property probably 150 yards or so away. Speaking with the wife, the shots do not scare him, but rather he goes nuts trying to get off the deck to get down by me.

I know my questions are numerous and elementary as I stated before, but want to stay or more likely get on track with my dog. Thank you in advance for tips you may offer.

[marysburg]

Welcome to the forum, and congratulations on having such a great pup to work with. It sounds like you and the pup might advance through your training if you got a dvd or book which would give you a timeline or plan to work from. A book which you might like would be Training with Mo, by Martha Greenlee. Also, the dvd called Perfect Start/Perfect Finish is excellent; as is the Silent Command series of dvds from Huntsmith Kennel (Rick and Ronnie Smith). The Smith boys also offer weekend seminars which are extremely helpful. You could try to contact a trainer in your area, or look up your closest NAVHDA chapter if you would rather have personal help from an experienced handler. Good luck with your pup; seems like you have a lot to work with there, and lots of options, so I'm sure you will have good results.

[deseeker]

Welcome to the forum, and congratulations on having such a great pup to work with. It sounds like you and the pup might advance through your training if you got a dvd or book which would give you a timeline or plan to work from. A book which you might like would be Training with Mo, by Martha Greenlee. Also, the dvd called Perfect Start/Perfect Finish is excellent; as is the Silent Command series of dvds from Huntsmith Kennel (Rick and Ronnie Smith). The Smith boys also offer weekend seminars which are extremely helpful. You could try to contact a trainer in your area, or look up your closest NAVHDA chapter if you would rather have personal help from an experienced handler. Good luck with your pup; seems like you have a lot to work with there, and lots of options, so I'm sure you will have good results.

X2

[getzapped]

It sounds like he has the desire. I think if you let him of the cc he would most definitely catch a pen raised bird. Like said above, make a training plan and stick to it. I have my first also 13 mo gsp. It has been challenging but it is a great feeling of accomplishment to see the dog performing properly.

[shags]

It doesn't sound like you and your dog are in too much trouble, and he's not to old to work with. You'll be fine once you get on track.

Try a few books and DVDs so you can see the process. Then choose one method that seems to mesh with your style and stick with it. Don't try to mix and match. The ones already suggested are tried and true. See if your local livrary can get them for you, if you don't care to buy them right now.

In the meantime throw that wing away. You're encouraging sight pointing, and no good will come of it. Wing and string is great for little baby puppies, and only then for the owners' entertainment.

You are way ahead of the game simply because you have training areas and the ability to keep birds. Get busy on that pigeon coop Tell your wife that you really would like for Santa to bring you a couple jump boxes. Check out ones from this forum's sponsor.

IMO you'd do well to contact a trainer and get some one on one. You are in Georgia, no? Contact Ray Dohse. www.eshodfarm.com.

[cjhills]

The training probably was not that horribly wrong. It is extremely difficult to ruin a dog with good breeding.
like the others said ditch the quail and the wing on a string. pigeons are your best option. A launcher would be great but there are other ways.
I start whoa training when they are puppies. Before they eat, go outside, kennel in or out, retrieve a dummy or any other controlled situation. We do not use a verbal whoa on birds until the dog is well on his way to being steady.
It seems overwhelming but you will be surprised how easy it is and how good it will make you feel when you start making progress. This is likely a very good dog.
Contact Brenda and Rick at Walnut hill kennel they will get you on the right road.
Good Luck and enjoy the ride......................CJ

[skunk]

Welcome to the forum, and congratulations on having such a great pup to work with. It sounds like you and the pup might advance through your training if you got a dvd or book which would give you a timeline or plan to work from. A book which you might like would be Training with Mo, by Martha Greenlee. Also, the dvd called Perfect Start/Perfect Finish is excellent; as is the Silent Command series of dvds from Huntsmith Kennel (Rick and Ronnie Smith). The Smith boys also offer weekend seminars which are extremely helpful. You could try to contact a trainer in your area, or look up your closest NAVHDA chapter if you would rather have personal help from an experienced handler. Good luck with your pup; seems like you have a lot to work with there, and lots of options, so I'm sure you will have good results.

X2

X3 - especially on the Perfect Start/Finish DVDs

It seems to me that nothing went "horribly wrong". Your dog is a predator and the fact that he went nuts is a good thing. It means he'll hunt hard for you. May require some reigning in once he has more exposure but I wouldn't worry about that right now.

[rinker]

http://www.thefieldtrialer.com/forum/vi ... =12&t=6031

I essentially agree with the other posters. You are right about one thing, you can not train a bird dog without birds. Go ahead and build yourself a simple pigeon coop and get you a few pigeons started. With a little scrap lumber you could also build yourself a couple of johnny houses for quail. The link above is to a thread about a simple johnny house design. If you would have put those eight quail you bought in a johnny house you could have potentially used them over and over again for a couple of months.

[Cactusjack]

THANK YOU FOR ALL THE RESPONSES .

I was following a book a wrote by a fellow named David Gowdey, but jeez the amount of information out that conflicts is mind boggling. I'm glad it's not to late to get my dog on track.

For those of y'all that suggested not use the wing on string anymore, what can I work on in the meantime? I know sounds like a dumb question, but it's gonna take me a week or so to get my coop built and then I'll have to try and get some pigeons. From what I understand so far I'll have to leave the pigeons in there before training with for quite some time. I guess what I'm asking is, what are things I can be working on in the meantime? I feel like sometimes he gets bored with retrieving a dummy or bumper or the basic command stuff. While i know it isn't possible I wish there was a concrete order that dogs got trained in. First this, then this, etc......

I will look into the dvd's and trainers some y'all suggested. Thanks again.

Here's a better pic of my dog.

[Cactusjack]

THANK YOU FOR ALL THE REPLIES,

I have been reading the GSP book by Gowdey, but the amount of information between that book, this forum, and internet in general is bit overwhelming and sometimes contradicts each other. I will look into the perfect start/ finish dvs's. $130 is kinda pricey (especially around Christmas) but I may have to splurge since it's recommended by several people. I will begin looking into a pigeon coop, and appreciate the link showing a nice simple design. I'm not the most construction minded person but have the know how to run a skill saw and a drill.

A couple of question on that though. From what I understand I would have to leave the pigeons in there for sometime, so they know where there new home? Is this correct? Secondly, what should I be working on him with in the meantime? It will take me couple of weeks if not longer to find the time to build a coop, then I have to try and get pigeons from somewhere. I've seen them on craigslist, but I'm not sure what kind would be best to use. Some folks have racers, others have homers. What would be best. How about just regular ol' feral pigeons if I could trap them?