Gun Dog Forum

have been working with our 11 week gsp, she will retreive some but she loves to play tug o war. any tips for her making the retreive the part thats fun

Stop the tug of war. There is no good that can come from it.

yea I know, I pinch her mouth to make her give it to me, but I have seen my 5 yr old tugging with her

There is no problem with the dogs tugging. It is simply between you and the pup as you don't want it to carry over to not giving up the bird when it retrieves to you.

Ezzy

There is absolutely nothing wrong with tug-of-war, and—in fact—it gives one a great opportunity to teach "give."

Bill

There are plenty of games I would rather play with a young dog than tug of war. I have done it in the past with pups and young dogs but no longer.

It can be fun, but the reason I stopped is that I cannot see where it will help anything and it may well cause problems down the road.

RayG

Spy Car wrote:There is absolutely nothing wrong with tug-of-war, and—in fact—it gives one a great opportunity to teach "give."

Bill

Sorry, I lost my head for a moment. I was going to say more but then when I find it is absolute there is nothing more to say.

ezzy333 wrote:

Spy Car wrote:There is absolutely nothing wrong with tug-of-war, and—in fact—it gives one a great opportunity to teach "give."

Bill

Sorry, I lost my head for a moment. I was going to say more but then when I find it is absolute there is nothing more to say.

That's certainly cryptic.

Bill

RayGubernat wrote:There are plenty of games I would rather play with a young dog than tug of war. I have done it in the past with pups and young dogs but no longer.

It can be fun, but the reason I stopped is that I cannot see where it will help anything and it may well cause problems down the road.

RayG

There's no good reason to stop. Tug-of-wr is a great bonding game, it is great exercise, and a well trained dog will immediately "release" the tug object upon command.

Practicing releases,especially in active situations where a dog might not ordinarily want to "give" is a great way to train. Having a dog trained to release in high stress situations prevents problems down the road.

Bill

It can be a problem if your dog can't tell the difference between a bird and an old sock or whatever. Most dogs are smart enough to distinguish between them A little fetch 'n tug is a fun game for dogs. But watch out...it can bring out some aggressiveness in certain dogs. Some can get too possessive and bossy so you have to be ready to nip that in the bud. Letting a reticent pup 'win' sometimes seems to build up his confidence, so there's that too.

I NEVER play tug of war but I don't think kid's doing it hurts a bit. Dog's KNOW the difference between you, the boss, and the kid's which are fun. If you have a very soft mouthed dog in fact, it can be beneficial to giving them a more aggressive grip. Special situation though.

I agree with gonehuntin that there may be some situations in which it may be beneficial, but I don't do it, and I wouldn't until I know exactly what I'm working with. I realize what you're saying Spy Car, but I think there can be some pitfalls with playing tug, and there are other, equally effective ways to bond and train for "give" or "drop" or whatever command you use.

To the OP, despite what I just said, your pup will know the difference between you and your kid. In fact, the pup will know the difference between you and everyone else, and all the subsequent rules (or lack there of).

Show people play "tuggy" - fact - for "straightening their dog's detention (i.e., teeth and bite)."

Otherwise, why would you? "Bonding?" Bonding over hard-mouth to come, more like it...

MG

This is the first time I have ever seen anyone who supposedly, knows something about gun dogs claim that playing 'tug a war' with a dog is harmless. I have been working with sporting dogs for over 25 years and all the pro's both in obedience and field training advise to NEVER play this with your pup or dog! I can make them hard mouthed with game, and once the get hard mouth, it is very hard to break! I suppose that some dogs will not have problems from this, but if a guy has had a couple of dogs that he played tug of war with that did not have problem with give and/or hard mouth with game....then he was just blind stupid lucky.....

Don't do it....!

I have been told for years now that playing tuggy with a gundog does no harm and can do some good if a dog is inclined to drop retrieves. I have never played tuggy with a gundog though, I'm still worried it might cause hard mouth.

Bill T.

Timewise65 wrote:This is the first time I have ever seen anyone who supposedly, knows something about gun dogs claim that playing 'tug a war' with a dog is harmless. I have been working with sporting dogs for over 25 years and all the pro's both in obedience and field training advise to NEVER play this with your pup or dog! I can make them hard mouthed with game, and once the get hard mouth, it is very hard to break! I suppose that some dogs will not have problems from this, but if a guy has had a couple of dogs that he played tug of war with that did not have problem with give and/or hard mouth with game....then he was just blind stupid lucky.....

Don't do it....!

Yeah. And feeding a dog raw meat will make him bloodthirsty, keeping a gundog in the house will ruin him for hunting, and tying a dead chicken around his neck will keep him out of the henhouse. :roll:

shags wrote:

Timewise65 wrote:This is the first time I have ever seen anyone who supposedly, knows something about gun dogs claim that playing 'tug a war' with a dog is harmless. I have been working with sporting dogs for over 25 years and all the pro's both in obedience and field training advise to NEVER play this with your pup or dog! I can make them hard mouthed with game, and once the get hard mouth, it is very hard to break! I suppose that some dogs will not have problems from this, but if a guy has had a couple of dogs that he played tug of war with that did not have problem with give and/or hard mouth with game....then he was just blind stupid lucky.....

Don't do it....!

Yeah. And feeding a dog raw meat will make him bloodthirsty, keeping a gundog in the house will ruin him for hunting, and tying a dead chicken around his neck will keep him out of the henhouse. :roll:

True, old dog trainers are less reliable than old wives. Their tales are accepted as truth, passed down without an attempt at verification. Some may have been true with old technology, all are logical enough.

This one I have tested, repeatedly with no ill effects. If I have just been lucky, I should have been buying lottery tickets. I am certain tug of war as a game will not cause hardmouth on its own. And I have never heard of a verifiable account of where it did.

shags wrote:

Timewise65 wrote:This is the first time I have ever seen anyone who supposedly, knows something about gun dogs claim that playing 'tug a war' with a dog is harmless. I have been working with sporting dogs for over 25 years and all the pro's both in obedience and field training advise to NEVER play this with your pup or dog! I can make them hard mouthed with game, and once the get hard mouth, it is very hard to break! I suppose that some dogs will not have problems from this, but if a guy has had a couple of dogs that he played tug of war with that did not have problem with give and/or hard mouth with game....then he was just blind stupid lucky.....

Don't do it....!

Yeah. And feeding a dog raw meat will make him bloodthirsty, keeping a gundog in the house will ruin him for hunting, and tying a dead chicken around his neck will keep him out of the henhouse. :roll:

Exactly. The notion that playing tug will lead to a hard-mouth is an old wive's tale that is as fallacious as it is oft-repeated.

Bill

Depends if you wan't to make it a war or a game of give and take or a battle of possession, mostly it should be 'Hold' and hold on to .

thanks for all the advice. She found a dead bird on edge of yard and ran like the wind to keep me from getting it. not very happy

For gosh sakes, she's 11 weeks old!!!!!!!

s223196 wrote:thanks for all the advice. She found a dead bird on edge of yard and ran like the wind to keep me from getting it. not very happy

Everyone is different. I personally would be thrilled with that kind of drive and desire and willingness to thumb its nose at me, especially at that age.

A dog that won't give me the 'ol fazoole every once in a while...just plain ain't enough dog for me. But then some say I ain't quite right.

You might just have got yourself a bird dog there, fella. Keep your sense of humor well oiled. You might need it.

RayG

An 11 week old? I'd be happy.

Bill

I've never had a setter that wanted to play tug -of -war. Now the Jack Russells are a different story. .. best watch your fingers.

Can think of a whooole lot of other more meaningful ways to build confidence in a pup and bond with it, than to ask pup to DROP an object, reach for it , and then wind up in a tug o war.
"No good reason to stop" doing it?
Yes there is-
Because it's silly to go on the notion that it is some kind of "staple" trainers use to train up a retriever or gundog.
Can't think of a good reason why I'd want my pup stressed to teach it to HOLD or DROP an object, not even on the FF' table.
Even there-
No pressure for either one.

gonehuntin' wrote:For gosh sakes, she's 11 weeks old!!!!!!!

^^THIS!!!^^^

It's an Eleven Week Old Puppy! These are the days you enjoy taking her out and letting her experience the world and enjoy watching her become the bird dog she's going to grow up to be.

Thanks guys, very incouraging.

shags wrote:

Timewise65 wrote:This is the first time I have ever seen anyone who supposedly, knows something about gun dogs claim that playing 'tug a war' with a dog is harmless. I have been working with sporting dogs for over 25 years and all the pro's both in obedience and field training advise to NEVER play this with your pup or dog! I can make them hard mouthed with game, and once the get hard mouth, it is very hard to break! I suppose that some dogs will not have problems from this, but if a guy has had a couple of dogs that he played tug of war with that did not have problem with give and/or hard mouth with game....then he was just blind stupid lucky.....

Don't do it....!

Yeah. And feeding a dog raw meat will make him bloodthirsty, keeping a gundog in the house will ruin him for hunting, and tying a dead chicken around his neck will keep him out of the henhouse. :roll:

I guess that explains why many of you have problems with your dogs retrieving. I have hunted with many who have 'upland trained' pointers and flushers....and they either will not retrieve or when they finally get back with the bird, not much is fit for the table.....! These are the same guys that say, I don't believe in FF my dog and I love to play tug of war with them....I know the type! :roll: And you all know who you are too!

Yep, I am not sure how much damage it would do if any, but for the life of me, I don't know why anyone would make the blanket statement that it does no harm and even advise you do it. I'd much rather just use my common sense and figure out something to do that we know won't cause a problem down the road that we will need to fix.

Smart trainers use tug-of-war opportunities to not only bond with their dogs and get in a bit of good exercise, but—most importantly from a "training aspect," use it as a time to teach their dog to "give." When one can amicably and instantly stop an active play session with a word, and the dog immediately complies, you have advanced training.

Rather than being bound to falacious old wives tales, it is smarter to use play opportunities to reinforce the same sort of lessons and relationships that play out in the field.

Bill

Spy Car wrote:Smart trainers use tug-of-war opportunities to not only bond with their dogs and get in a bit of good exercise, but—most importantly from a "training aspect," use it as a time to teach their dog to "give." When one can amicably and instantly stop an active play session with a word, and the dog immediately complies, you have advanced training.

Rather than being bound to falacious old wives tales, it is smarter to use play opportunities to reinforce the same sort of lessons and relationships that play out in the field.

Bill

You actually PROVE my point when you said, "use it [Tug-of-War] as a time to teach their dog to "give".............You actually train you dog to 'give' using "Tug-a War"?..........that command is taught in the Force Fetch Training as a fundamental command! Those that skip FF training are missing a training routine that lays the groundwork for a Top Gun Dog! Good Luck! You will need it!

The OP's question was about an 11 week old pup. Force fetch for an 11 week old puppy? Not so much :roll:

Charlie Morgan, the great retriever trainer, used to have a saying that went something like this: "Training a dog is nothing more than replacing a more serious problem with a less serious problem until we are left with as few problems as possible".

It's great advice so why in the world would anyone knowingly instill a possible problem in a dog? Sure doesn't make any sense to m. The fewer problems a dog grows up with, the faster and easier he'll train.

No one should instill a problem in a dog. Having a dog that is bonded, happy, enjoys playing with its master, and will stop an active game and "give" a tug up immediately upon command is not a dog with a "problem."

Why that isn't clear to some is beyond me. There are ways to reached advanced levels of training without the infliction of pain. Smart trainers know this.

Bill

Spy Car wrote:No one should instill a problem in a dog. Having a dog that is bonded, happy, enjoys playing with its master, and will stop an active game and "give" a tug up immediately upon command is not a dog with a "problem."

Why that isn't clear to some is beyond me. There are ways to reached advanced levels of training without the infliction of pain. Smart trainers know this.

Bill

Bill, if the dog already knows and complies with the command indicates to me you have no idea what we are talking about, and I don't think you even understand the problem. You are trying to tell us it is OK to let a surgeon play with knives. We are saying it is not OK to let a 3 year old to play with knives even though it is a great way to teach bandaging.

Ezzy

Spy Car wrote:No one should instill a problem in a dog. Having a dog that is bonded, happy, enjoys playing with its master, and will stop an active game and "give" a tug up immediately upon command is not a dog with a "problem."

Why that isn't clear to some is beyond me. There are ways to reached advanced levels of training without the infliction of pain. Smart trainers know this.

Bill

You may be right, but opinions can be had by everyone. You've made your perspective clear and so have others. I don't see further discussion swaying either side. Now it's up to the OP to decide his path.

ezzy333 wrote: Bill, if the dog already knows and complies with the command indicates to me you have no idea what we are talking about, and I don't think you even understand the problem. You are trying to tell us it is OK to let a surgeon play with knives. We are saying it is not OK to let a 3 year old to play with knives even though it is a great way to teach bandaging.

Ezzy

It is called "training" Ezzy. Unfortunately it is you who seems to lack that understanding, all my dogs are trained to very advanced levels.

Having a dog train to yield a tug is a good thing. It complements other training.

Seems reading up-thread you were for it, before you were against it. Whatever :roll:

Bill

Spy Car wrote:[... all my dogs are trained to very advanced levels.

Having a dog train to yield a tug is a good thing. It complements other training.

Advanced levels of bite training? - otherwise please tell how "complementary" tuggy is to any kind of training that involves gundogs?

MG

Spy Car wrote:

ezzy333 wrote: Bill, if the dog already knows and complies with the command indicates to me you have no idea what we are talking about, and I don't think you even understand the problem. You are trying to tell us it is OK to let a surgeon play with knives. We are saying it is not OK to let a 3 year old to play with knives even though it is a great way to teach bandaging.

Ezzy

It is called "training" Ezzy. Unfortunately it is you who seems to lack that understanding, all my dogs are trained to very advanced levels.

Having a dog train to yield a tug is a good thing. It complements other training.

Seems reading up-thread you were for it, before you were against it. Whatever :roll:

Bill

Bill, I am not really taking sides as I don't see that there is much of a reason. My problem is you advising people to do it as though it is the only way to teach drop. And you are doing this after many experienced trainers have told you the problems they have encountered. Seems like that is your main purpose, and not to add to someone's questions. Just hard to accept that everyone is always wrong, no matter whether it is training, feeding, formulas, manufacturing, or everyone's motives for doing what they do.

crackerd wrote:

Spy Car wrote:[... all my dogs are trained to very advanced levels.

Having a dog train to yield a tug is a good thing. It complements other training.

Advanced levels of bite training? - otherwise please tell how "complementary" tuggy is to any kind of training that involves gundogs?

MG

Releasing to hand. Is that not obvious?

The other part involves having fun with ones dog and building a strong bonds, which is also highly complementary to the highest levels of training. Not everything needs to be punative.

Bill

ezzy333 wrote: Bill, I am not really taking sides as I don't see that there is much of a reason. My problem is you advising people to do it as though it is the only way to teach drop. And you are doing this after many experienced trainers have told you the problems they have encountered. Seems like that is your main purpose, and not to add to someone's questions. Just hard to accept that everyone is always wrong, no matter whether it is training, feeding, formulas, manufacturing, or everyone's motives for doing what they do.

You're taking sides Ezzy, both sides.

You're also mis-characterizing. I never said that tug is the ONLY WAY to teach a dog to drop or give, but is something that complements training. I'm not seeing that others have had problems, rather that some guy told some other guy that it was a bad idea, and so fallacies spread.

If one can't train a puppy to give a tug, one isn't much of a dog trainer. Smart trainers engrain desired behaviors from very early on, and capitalize on play.

Bill

Again, "highest levels" of what kind of training, 'cause it ain't done or encouraged in retriever training - unless, as gonehuntin' noted you're wanting to instill a problem in a dog so you can deal with it retroactively. Like teaching a dog to vocalize so you can later teach it the "Quiet!" command.

Can't say I've heard the term "releasing to hand" in retriever circles - it's "Out," "Drop," or "Give" - and ain't none of 'em enforced or reinforced "punitively." Have you trained any gundogs to advanced levels of retrieving - including giving up two or three ducks in succession so they can go for a third or fourth and deliver the last one, too? That's advanced levels of training.

MG

crackerd wrote:Again, "highest levels" of what kind of training, 'cause it ain't done or encouraged in retriever training - unless, as gonehuntin' noted you're wanting to instill a problem in a dog so you can deal with it retroactively. Like teaching a dog to vocalize so you can later teach it the "Quiet!" command.

Can't say I've heard the term "releasing to hand" in retriever circles - it's "Out," "Drop," or "Give" - and ain't none of 'em enforced or reinforced "punitively." Have you trained any gundogs to advanced levels of retrieving - including giving up two or three ducks in succession so they can go for a third or fourth and deliver the last one, too? That's advanced levels of training.

MG

Instilling the behavior in a puppy to for it to give is NOT A PROBLEM. It is a good thing. It is not a behavior to "fix," but one to nurture and encourage. It fully complements other training.

Bill

I think that my sister or I or our kids played tug-o-war and rough housed with literally every one of my dad's fc labs.

Dogs are smart enough to differentiate between play and work and, if you're going to do force fetch, this entire discussion is a moot.

I think that a lot of people, including many pros, are way too conservative. Dogs, like children, can learn through play.

AlPastor wrote:I think that my sister or I or our kids played tug-o-war and rough housed with literally every one of my dad's fc labs.

Dogs are smart enough to differentiate between play and work and, if you're going to do force fetch, this entire discussion is a moot.

I think that a lot of people, including many pros, are way too conservative. Dogs, like children, can learn through play.

All true, AlPastor, but not the point here. Presumably, your Dad either had a pro trainer for "all his FC Labs," or learned from a pro in making up his first FC and those that followed. To put this in perspective, it wasn't your Dad or his pro who ever was inclined to aver, "Hey, I know how we can complement a future FC's training! - Let's play tuggy! That'll teach 'em to give up their birds with the smoothness of a read-option quarterback handing off to Gale Sayers!" For kids who are around a trained dog, yes, there's differentiating in the dog's posture between play and work. For what's presumably a first-time trainer (the OP) trying to turn his GSP puppy into a more enthusiastic retriever by "playing" tuggy, and for others to encourage it as a bonding exercise and for forming good mouth habits is rather ludicrous.

Also, your contention that this topic is moot for anyone who will be force fetching a dog doesn't quite ring true, either. Yes, FF augments mouth habits and even can"clean up" others, but 99% of the time that truism applies to sloppy mouth or hesitant retrieving, NOT to the dog having to "unlearn" that it shouldn't put an unyielding death grip on a bird or bunny. Most mouth habits are all but fully engrained by six months old, and that's what a retriever takes into FF. And so you know, today's retriever pros engage in a helluva lot of more playtime, especially young dog pros, than what you might've noted in the "conservative" era. But again, tuggy ain't part of it.

MG

AlPastor wrote:
I think that a lot of people, including many pros, are way too conservative. Dogs, like children, can learn through play.

Two of the things I've learned in life are: If you were a pro, you'd be darn conservative too. We work with enough problems in dogs; that's why they're sent to us.

Second, people are idiots. If you cautiously tell them it's OK to do something, you can be sure they'll carry it to the extreme and then blame you.

gonehuntin' wrote: Two of the things I've learned in life are: If you were a pro, you'd be darn conservative too. We work with enough problems in dogs; that's why they're sent to us.
Second, people are idiots. If you cautiously tell them it's OK to do something, you can be sure they'll carry it to the extreme and then blame you.

I'll just smile
Then have a nice malt .

gonehuntin' wrote:

AlPastor wrote:
I think that a lot of people, including many pros, are way too conservative. Dogs, like children, can learn through play.

Two of the things I've learned in life are: If you were a pro, you'd be darn conservative too. We work with enough problems in dogs; that's why they're sent to us.

Second, people are idiots. If you cautiously tell them it's OK to do something, you can be sure they'll carry it to the extreme and then blame you.

Well said and something you learn from experience. I am yet to hear a pro advise anyone to do things that later can cause problems. And note, I said can and not does.

ezzy333 wrote: I am yet to hear a pro advise anyone to do things that later can cause problems. And note, I said can and not does.

I took a 7 month old springer on a live game shoot day for the first time never having seen a bird before never mind a gun .
But I have also advised many with an 18 month old to wait till next season

Teaching a puppy to give is the opposite of creating a problem. Failing to train puppies to give is failing to train.

Training a puppy under age-approprite levels of stress, which includes training to "give" under tug conditions, leads to outstanding results. Puppies are always learning. If one is not training, one is failing to train. Capitalizing on play is a great thing. Tug is NOT the only way to teach the concept to young pups, but it is ONE way that complements future training.

A puppy that will "give," is set up to be a great dog. Not training a puppy the basics just leads to a lot of needless ear-pinching later on. Not the smart play.

Bill