Gun Dog Forum

One of my hunting buddies has a pointing lab that he is having a big problem with. My buddy is a little computer phobic and challenged so I said I’d post for him on the forum. Jake, the lab, is 2 1/2 years old. He is neutered and has been to a professional trainer, he is not steady to flush or shot nor will he return right away when whistled in or commanded to come. But the problem is that he will not retrieve a dead or crippled bird. He’ll come up to the bird sniff it and then just keep hunting. He also just keeps flushing birds, not pointing, if there are more around. He’ll make no attempt to pick up a bird and when you put one in his mouth he immediately drops it. My buddy says he was doing this last season and he sent him back to the trainer and he came back this spring “cured”. But he’s back to the same old antics now. I want to hear what you guys and gals think might be the cure.

Your buddy needs to go back to the trainer and work the dog under his supervision, then follow the program to the T when they return home.

fishvik wrote: My buddy says he was doing this last season and he sent him back to the trainer and he came back this spring “cured”. But he’s back to the same old antics now. I want to hear what you guys and gals think might be the cure.

My suggestion is either a different trainer or he can "DIY" with Julie Knutson's book, "Training the Pointing Labrador".

Another thought, since the dog came back "cured", I wonder how much training the owner continued with this Summer on his own............. Might be the owner and maybe not the dog or the pro trainer.

Sounds like just a lack of consistent training and nothing else.

Good advice given above.

2 1/2 years old

"He is not steady to flush or shot nor will he return right away when whistled in or commanded to come and ................he will not retrieve a dead or crippled bird..................all he will do is flush birds." quote

I think you have a GSP and a GWP ? Might be best to use the lab just for cold water retrieving.

If a pointing lab doesn't point, is it still a pointing lab?

I agree with others above. My guess is your buddy doesn't keep up with training.

mnaj_springer wrote: I agree with others above.

Everybody except Sharon :roll:

Sharon wrote:Good advice given above.

2 1/2 years old

"He is not steady to flush or shot nor will he return right away when whistled in or commanded to come and ................he will not retrieve a dead or crippled bird..................all he will do is flush birds." quote

I think you have a GSP and a GWP ? Might be best to use the lab just for cold water retrieving.

????????????????

Until she edited it, Sharon wanted him to get rid of the dog....then the last line got changed.

Eric wrote:Until she edited it, Sharon wanted him to get rid of the dog....then the last line got changed.

I didn't say that. If you look again the post has no editing nomenclature.
When a post is edited it says so. (You love to use that rolling eye balls in your posts don't you.

What kind of 'trainer' was this Lab trained by? One that works with pointing and flushing pointers or a trainer for Waterdogs...or maybe just obedience training?

How long was the dog trained by the professional?

To train an average retriever to follow basic obedience and to 'retrieve' shot game to hand it would take around 3 full months of training, which would include, basic obedience, Force Fetch, Marking, Lining, and Retrieving.

Now for a 'Gun Dog' for upland birds with a Retriever, pointing or not! I have no idea how long or what steps are taken....

So the best answer here, I think is it depends!

I'm inclined to agree that the dogs owner is probably to blame here. I've never owned a pointing lab but I'd think it would be trained in the exact same way as any of the versatile breeds ? If I did only hunting with some of the hunt-point-retrievers I've trained retrieving would have gone onto the back burner in those pups minds. I made that mistake with the very first one I ever owned and I really struggled to persuade her to retrieve from about 6 months right on to a year old. I never made that mistake again.

I find it hard to imagine a lab that will not retrieve so it must have done a lot of hunting with virtually no retrieve training input from the owner.

If the dog is also a poor pointer then I'm inclined to think that although it is of "pointing lab" breeding, that breeding has not been strong enough to ensure it would point. It should not be necessary to train a pointing breed to point. They should point whether you like it or not.

Bill T.

Sharon wrote:

Eric wrote:Until she edited it, Sharon wanted him to get rid of the dog....then the last line got changed.

I didn't say that. If you look again the post has no editing nomenclature.
When a post is edited it says so. (You love to use that rolling eye balls in your posts don't you.

The edit function doesn't show if you edit the post within a short period of time.

Edited within two minutes
Edited again and it still doesn't show.
I (and others) saw what you posted .............. Nice try though.

Edit again -- Yes, I use the "rolleyes" when appropriate.

Edit again --- You're a pretty good fibber, Sharon

You have been on here 4 months Bud. You don't know me. I have been on here 7+ years and have neve rbeen accused of being a liar before. I think that says more about you than me .

( I read your other posts. Most of them attacking another woman. Interesting.( )

Last comment as I can't be bothered dealing with people like you.

edited : I think I know you Eric. I see you won't put your location. Weren't you the guy I beat at the last trial?

Thanks everybody I'll share this with the owner. And Sharon your one of my hero's, after all anyone who likes gundogs and ice hockey has got to be a good person.

Not all pointing labs point which is why the world is riddled with controversy over them. Mostly though, they will all flush which is really what a Lab should do. The retrieving is another dilema. Most Lab's are retrieve-a-holics so that part does concern me. Can he be properly force fetched and MADE to retrieve? Yes, but possibly not reliably. I'd suggest an evaluation with a totally different trainer.

fishvik wrote:Thanks everybody I'll share this with the owner. And Sharon your one of my hero's, after all anyone who likes gundogs and ice hockey has got to be a good person.

And beagles - don't forget beagles. Sharon got it all going for good person status.

'Fraid from what I'm inferring, this Lab went to the "wrong" trainer rather than to a retriever trainer.

MG

fishvik wrote:Thanks everybody I'll share this with the owner. And Sharon your one of my hero's, after all anyone who likes gundogs and ice hockey has got to be a good person.

Anyone that shares a home with a JRT has my vote

I trust that Sharon gives her good advice without *ever* intentionally trying to offend anyone. With advice about problems with dogs, sometimes the truth stings a bit, so being able to sort it out without taking things personally helps.

Eric wrote:

Sharon wrote:

Eric wrote:Until she edited it, Sharon wanted him to get rid of the dog....then the last line got changed.

I didn't say that. If you look again the post has no editing nomenclature.
When a post is edited it says so. (You love to use that rolling eye balls in your posts don't you.

The edit function doesn't show if you edit the post within a short period of time.

Edited within two minutes
Edited again and it still doesn't show.
I (and others) saw what you posted .............. Nice try though.

Edit again -- Yes, I use the "rolleyes" when appropriate.

Edit again --- You're a pretty good fibber, Sharon

Dude, it says a lot about you that you hijack a thread with personal attacks. someone's editing, or not, isn't really any of your business.

Sharon wrote: edited : I think I know you Eric. I see you won't put your location. Weren't you the guy I beat at the last trial?

FOR GOSH SAKES; BEATEN BY A WOMAN!!!! IS THERE NO JUSTICE IN THIS WORLD?

No wonder he has to lie about the sweetest ol' broad on the board.

That's a great line Sharon ! I must try to remember that one !

Bill T.

LOL go Sharon!

Sharon wrote:
edited : I think I know you Eric. I see you won't put your location. Weren't you the guy I beat at the last trial?

Sharon wins, again.

"Pointing Labs" is an oxymoron. Kind of like "gay marriage". It doesn't make any sense!
Labs are to flush and retrieve. If a lab doesn't have the aptitude to retrieve then it is poorly bred.
It needs to find a new home and be a family pet. Maybe it will fetch a tennis ball.
Please, give the dog a life that it will enjoy. Hunting isn't it for this guy.
Torturing the animal with more force fetch isn't the answer.

All these people want to invent new breeds like "pointing labs" and "Golden-Doodles", and "labradoodles".
I heard that "Pointing Springers" are way better than German Shorthairs. He should get one of those!

Personally, for a long time I've wanted a flushing dog and after doing a lot of research, I've decided to get a "Flushing Llewellen Setter" from this breeder who started a new Flushing Llewellen Setter club. Really, that's the truth.- Not!

Seriously, If your friend wants a pointing dog with which to hunt, then he should get a dog which has been bred for a few hundred years to Point and hunt. All the pointing breeds also have wonderful personalities to be a family companion. There is nothing that special about a lab for a house pet/hunting partner, over the others.
Don't blame the trainer. You can't make a steak out of a portobello.

BTW, I love flat-coated retrievers.
Rock-on Sharon.

Vernal.

Well, it's either the trainer or the handler. Dog went to a pro. Won't come when called, won't point, not steady to shot, not steady to flush, won't retrieve; just what the heck was the trainer paid to do?

Vernal Pike wrote:"Pointing Labs" is an oxymoron. Kind of like "gay marriage". It doesn't make any sense!
Labs are to flush and retrieve. If a lab doesn't have the aptitude to retrieve then it is poorly bred.
It needs to find a new home and be a family pet. Maybe it will fetch a tennis ball.
Please, give the dog a life that it will enjoy. Hunting isn't it for this guy.
Torturing the animal with more force fetch isn't the answer.

All these people want to invent new breeds like "pointing labs" and "Golden-Doodles", and "labradoodles".
I heard that "Pointing Springers" are way better than German Shorthairs. He should get one of those!

Personally, for a long time I've wanted a flushing dog and after doing a lot of research, I've decided to get a "Flushing Llewellen Setter" from this breeder who started a new Flushing Llewellen Setter club. Really, that's the truth.- Not!

Seriously, If your friend wants a pointing dog with which to hunt, then he should get a dog which has been bred for a few hundred years to Point and hunt. All the pointing breeds also have wonderful personalities to be a family companion. There is nothing that special about a lab for a house pet/hunting partner, over the others.
Don't blame the trainer. You can't make a steak out of a portobello.

BTW, I love flat-coated retrievers.
Rock-on Sharon.

Vernal.

For someone who HAS NEVER SEEN THIS DOG, you have a lot to say about it! Experienced dog people that truly understand dogs and dog training, would never jump to those conclusions that you came to. You could be correct or you could be absolutely wrong! Opinions are like belly buttons, everyone has one! That of course, includes me.

This dog will retrieve dummies all day long. It would just rather find birds and point for a short period rather than bring any back he finds dead.

Hi,

I have a 14 month old lab that was sold as a pointing lab.
He has been trained by a professional trainer and he does point sometimes but not all the time.
Labs are natural flusher so it doesn't bother me that he doesn't always point as i can tell from his body langue if he is birdy.

I think some breeders claim there labs point to charge more money for pups.

Please read what this breeder said about pointing labs and he sells so called pointing labs.
http://www.turkeycreeklabradors.com/about.html

The debate about whether labs should point or not will go on for years yet. Fact is, labs have always pointed. Years ago it was rare to see a black phase point, but common to see yellow's and chocolate's point. Usually when a black lab pointed it was from chocolate or yellow parents. So somewhere in there, there is a recessive pointing gene.

Really, I would never discourage it. Think about it. A lab with an intense point would be the most versatile dog on the planet; no other dog would even come close. Intense point, great water dogs and a remarkable ability to learn whatever they are taught. What a truly amazing combination.

There is no doubt that unless you do your homework, many, many, people are sold a bill of goods on pointing labs.

The cure would be go to the basics. The dog must not be whoa broke and been on enough birds to develop a true point. Start with the basics go back to pile work, then go to using dead birds and then pen raised birds where the situation is controlled. Many labs that are pointing labs will flush especially if you are shooting the reward after the dog flushes the bird. I have seen GSP and Pointers that had to be trained to point so and not flush.

Vernal Pike wrote:"Pointing Labs" is an oxymoron. Kind of like "gay marriage". It doesn't make any sense!
Labs are to flush and retrieve. If a lab doesn't have the aptitude to retrieve then it is poorly bred.
It needs to find a new home and be a family pet. Maybe it will fetch a tennis ball.
Please, give the dog a life that it will enjoy. Hunting isn't it for this guy.
Torturing the animal with more force fetch isn't the answer.

All these people want to invent new breeds like "pointing labs" and "Golden-Doodles", and "labradoodles".
I heard that "Pointing Springers" are way better than German Shorthairs. He should get one of those!

Personally, for a long time I've wanted a flushing dog and after doing a lot of research, I've decided to get a "Flushing Llewellen Setter" from this breeder who started a new Flushing Llewellen Setter club. Really, that's the truth.- Not!

Seriously, If your friend wants a pointing dog with which to hunt, then he should get a dog which has been bred for a few hundred years to Point and hunt. All the pointing breeds also have wonderful personalities to be a family companion. There is nothing that special about a lab for a house pet/hunting partner, over the others.
Don't blame the trainer. You can't make a steak out of a portobello.

BTW, I love flat-coated retrievers.
Rock-on Sharon.

Vernal.

More force fetch may or may not be the answer, getting back to the basics is. There are many pointing breeds that flush rather than point, I have seen English pointers that flush rather than point and have to be trained to point. So your opinion is not valid, this dog may turn out to be an exceptional hunting dog given we nothing to little about it having a few common issues that other breed also have. The dog retrieves dummies so therefore it just has to learn to love to retrieve birds, it obviously has a drive to find birds and may just need more whoa work. Find me a breed that does exactly what it was bred to do all the time please. Also who cares what people breed their dogs to do they own them. Some people I am sure complained years ago when they developed GSPs as a breed.

Vernal Pike wrote:"Pointing Labs" is an oxymoron. Kind of like "gay marriage". It doesn't make any sense!
Labs are to flush and retrieve. If a lab doesn't have the aptitude to retrieve then it is poorly bred.
It needs to find a new home and be a family pet. Maybe it will fetch a tennis ball.
Please, give the dog a life that it will enjoy. Hunting isn't it for this guy.
Torturing the animal with more force fetch isn't the answer.

All these people want to invent new breeds like "pointing labs" and "Golden-Doodles", and "labradoodles".
I heard that "Pointing Springers" are way better than German Shorthairs. He should get one of those!

Personally, for a long time I've wanted a flushing dog and after doing a lot of research, I've decided to get a "Flushing Llewellen Setter" from this breeder who started a new Flushing Llewellen Setter club. Really, that's the truth.- Not!

Seriously, If your friend wants a pointing dog with which to hunt, then he should get a dog which has been bred for a few hundred years to Point and hunt. All the pointing breeds also have wonderful personalities to be a family companion. There is nothing that special about a lab for a house pet/hunting partner, over the others.
Don't blame the trainer. You can't make a steak out of a portobello.

BTW, I love flat-coated retrievers.
Rock-on Sharon.

Vernal.

I have hunted behind pointing labs back before there was such a thing, And many produced labs that would point. Great dogs for the all around hunter that has to watch their pennies.

Update on Jake, we hunted this Thursday for the opener of the sharpie season. After a bird is shot he will run up to it and smell it, pick it up and mouth it a little and drop it. We might try the jealousy retrieve approach with him. He doesn't seem too upset if another dog picks up the bird in front of him however. Maybe the clicker and treat approach might work or combination of both.