"CLICK"ER TRAINING

jtcwces · Post by **jtcwces** » Mon Aug 31, 2015 3:10 pm

RECENTLY EXPOSED MY DOGS TO A TRAINER USING THE CLICKER METHOD AND WAS REALLY IMPRESSED WITH HOW FAST THEY PICKED UP ON AND REMEMBERED EVERYTHING WE WENT OVER IN A SHORT SESSION. HAVE ANY OF YOU TRIED THIS AND IF SO WHAT ARE SOME IDEAS FOR TEACHING, AND IF YOU DIDNT CARE FOR IT ELABORATE A LITTLE IF YOU DONT MIND. THANKS IN ADV.

polmaise · Post by **polmaise** » Mon Aug 31, 2015 3:14 pm

What did they pick up and remember?

Trekmoor · Post by **Trekmoor** » Mon Aug 31, 2015 4:46 pm

I have used a clicker for various retrieve related problems, usually with other peoples dogs and once with one of my own dogs. I found it to be very good at overcoming problems the dogs had been instilled with by their owners. The clicker had a 100% success rate when sorting out already existing retrieve problems.

I am a long. long way from being any kind of clicker expert so if the method worked for me it should work even better for a trainer prepared to learn the method more thoroughly.

Despite this being the case it is not a method I like very much. For me, it is a bit "mechanical" and I feel no bond with a dog while using it . I am reduced to being the provider of the click and treat the dog wants and any bond that dog feels with me is food induced.
Not sure I can explain this very well but it is how I feel .

I think I am an instinctive trainer more than a deep thinking one ?

Bill T.

Post by **Sharon** » Tue Sep 01, 2015 12:40 pm

I've used clicker training for all pups in the house - fun for both of us. This is the link to the course I took with Karen Pryor. She trains dogs for the blind where clicker training works great!
Of course once you hit the fields/ training with birds clicker training is not useful.

https://www.google.ca/search?sourceid=n ... MrWtzEHZjI

ROTTnBRITT · Post by **ROTTnBRITT** » Tue Sep 01, 2015 2:27 pm

Sharon wrote: Of course once you hit the fields/ training with birds clicker training is not useful

I would think the clicker could still be useful in the field when training steadiness. The dog hears the click and know it has done something correct. Then you give the dog the reward.
I have not done this but I have thought about trying it. With a young dog working a bird. From the beginning when the pup points a bird, click it. Then show them (flush) the bird as the reward. It hears the click and know pointing when he smelled the bird was the correct thing to do. You can build on that all the way to steady to flush. If the pup doesn't do it correctly, lead it off the bird for no reward. This would all have to done on a CC. Prolly need some tweeting and a helper to get all the way through it. But I think it would be a nice low pressure method.
Just an idea.

polmaise · Post by **polmaise** » Tue Sep 01, 2015 2:44 pm

ROTTnBRITT wrote: I would think the clicker could still be useful in the field when training steadiness. The dog hears the click and know it has done something correct. Then you give the dog the reward.
I have not done this but I have thought about trying it. With a young dog working a bird. From the beginning when the pup points a bird, click it. Then show them (flush) the bird as the reward. It hears the click and know pointing when he smelled the bird was the correct thing to do. You can build on that all the way to steady to flush. If the pup doesn't do it correctly, lead it off the bird for no reward. This would all have to done on a CC. Prolly need some tweeting and a helper to get all the way through it. But I think it would be a nice low pressure method.
Just an idea.

So .....If the dog breaks the point to receive the reward?...And If the dog looks at the handler following the flush when the 'click' is applied to receive reward > How does this also help with any ''marking'' ?.
As Idea's go , perhaps it requires more thought ?..............................and an understanding of both CC and Clicker ?

polmaise · Post by **polmaise** » Tue Sep 01, 2015 2:45 pm

polmaise wrote:
ROTTnBRITT wrote: I would think the clicker could still be useful in the field when training steadiness. The dog hears the click and know it has done something correct. Then you give the dog the reward.
I have not done this but I have thought about trying it. With a young dog working a bird. From the beginning when the pup points a bird, click it. Then show them (flush) the bird as the reward. It hears the click and know pointing when he smelled the bird was the correct thing to do. You can build on that all the way to steady to flush. If the pup doesn't do it correctly, lead it off the bird for no reward. This would all have to done on a CC. Prolly need some tweeting and a helper to get all the way through it. But I think it would be a nice low pressure method.
Just an idea.
So .....If the dog breaks the point to receive the reward?...And If the dog looks at the handler following the flush when the 'click' is applied to receive reward > How does this also help with any ''marking'' ?.
As Idea's go , perhaps it requires more thought ?..............................and an understanding of both CC and Clicker ?

Still waiting on the Op responding though

ROTTnBRITT · Post by **ROTTnBRITT** » Tue Sep 01, 2015 3:23 pm

Polmaise. Have you ever done clicker training before?

Trekmoor · Post by **Trekmoor** » Tue Sep 01, 2015 5:39 pm

I think if I were to train for steadiness to flush using a clicker I'd provide "links" for the pup . I'd first train a stop or a stop/sit using the clicker and then I'd use that as link to the next phase which would be tossing a dummy for the pup and having it stop/sit to that dummy as it was still in the air. Compliance would get the click/treat. Then I'd do the same thing with live birds and the clicker.

Maybe the pup would understand the link between the birds in the air and the dummies in the air and I'd get my stop/sit to flush ? I think I would have to use a check cord for the first few birds until the pup got the idea however.

I hasten to add that I have never done this and don't really see much need to either. Personally I think using a clicker for this purpose is unnecessarily complicating things. I can usually get a steady dog with no check cord and no click treat.

Bill T.

polmaise · Post by **polmaise** » Tue Sep 01, 2015 6:06 pm

ROTTnBRITT wrote:Polmaise. Have you ever done clicker training before?

Yes . But has the OP ?..Other than the one lesson/Session?

gundogguy · Post by **gundogguy** » Wed Sep 02, 2015 3:46 am

polmaise wrote:
ROTTnBRITT wrote: I would think the clicker could still be useful in the field when training steadiness. The dog hears the click and know it has done something correct. Then you give the dog the reward.
I have not done this but I have thought about trying it. With a young dog working a bird. From the beginning when the pup points a bird, click it. Then show them (flush) the bird as the reward. It hears the click and know pointing when he smelled the bird was the correct thing to do. You can build on that all the way to steady to flush. If the pup doesn't do it correctly, lead it off the bird for no reward. This would all have to done on a CC. Prolly need some tweeting and a helper to get all the way through it. But I think it would be a nice low pressure method.
Just an idea.
So .....If the dog breaks the point to receive the reward?...And If the dog looks at the handler following the flush when the 'click' is applied to receive reward > How does this also help with any ''marking'' ?.
As Idea's go , perhaps it requires more thought ?..............................and an understanding of both CC and Clicker ?

Marking as it pertains to retrieving is a subject that is always of high interest to me . How can clicker training help a dog be a better marker of the fall of the bird?

ROTTnBRITT · Post by **ROTTnBRITT** » Wed Sep 02, 2015 6:50 am

I think "marking" that he is referring to is the clicker marking the behavior, not the fall of a bird.

Palmaise. I have very little knowledge of clicker training. So I don't have any response to your questions. But as it seems it could prove as being confusing for the dog and not the right approach to clicker training. Guess I'll just stick to the CC.

polmaise · Post by **polmaise** » Wed Sep 02, 2015 7:18 am

ROTTnBRITT wrote:I think "marking" that he is referring to is the clicker marking the behavior, not the fall of a bird.

Since I was the only one who mentioned ''marking'' ! No...I was referring to a 'Mark' as in a seen for the dog

ROTTnBRITT · Post by **ROTTnBRITT** » Wed Sep 02, 2015 7:29 am

Oh right. Im not concerned with marking the bird. You put it in there and confused me.

Chukar12 · Post by **Chukar12** » Wed Sep 02, 2015 10:03 am

This is against my better judgment...

Training a gun dog to a finished product is a progression of steps and they correlate to the dog's maturity and the amount and timing of exposure the dog gets to the field and game. In my opinion, none of this can be looked at as simply as a one to one obedience or convenience command such as "sit." However, in my experience if you are creative and patient enough you can use those simple steps to create a progression to more advanced behavioral shaping and make a quicker connection with the dog for the desired behaviors under more stimulating circumstances with a bird. The original poster asked for some detail above and Stop to Flush was mentioned in another post, I will describe how I have used clicker training to prepare for stop to flush.

After a dog understands the clicker, I introduce a game with a "place board" any platform or even a piece of plywood about 2'x3' rectangular. I lay the plywood down and while letting the pup drag a short cord I stand near it. Initially when the pup pays any attention to the object, I click and reward it (I use hot dog slices)...looking at it sniffing, etc... You will find that even an 8 week old pup loves the game. In a short time, maybe after 2-3 times, I stop acknowledging the sniff and the dog will try other things with the board, including stepping on it. I start rewarding that contact, first one foot, then two and eventually not until all four feet are standing on the object. I have not in any of this spoken a word. Eventually, I pick up the cord and I restrain the dog from rushing to the board for their reward, I walk them toward the board and as they climb on it, I "tap: their collar with a pop on the lead and then click and treat their standing on the spot. I use this behavior to progress to a point where they are only treated when i walk past and they remain standing. Now the dog is used to "standing" with a collar cue and allowing me to pass them.

I can now at any time i feel the pup is big enough and old enough, use my game to add a "pinch collar" and begin letting the pup wear an e-collar not turned on during the activity. We now do the same thing but as the pup begins to stop we cue it as pup hits the board ever so lightly with the pinch collar. When he stops, click and treat. In short order, I abandon the board and transition to simply walking and cueing with the pinch collar, when the pup responds by stopping I click and reward, then I progress to walking past, if the pup remains I walk back to him...click and treat. I make my treks away further and longer, I can kick grass throw things in the air etc... When the pup stands for my shenanigans he gets a reward, when he doesn't he gets nothing and we try again.

I now have a puppy that will stop and stand still with a cue from a pinch collar and do it with a style that a dog has when it anticipates a slice of hot dog, not with the body language of one that is expecting anything punitive other than no hot dog. When I begin formal training WITH A CERTAIN KIND OF PUP (not all but there is no room to explain this) I begin with a stop to flush. I do this because I remove a number of senses that simply escalate the inert excitement of a puppy bred to be a predator. Stop to flush is done upwind (no Smell), at some distance with launchers for reduced Sound and Sight that will excite the dog. As I pop the bird, I give the pinch collar cue to stop. After a while, bird cue...bird cue...bird cue, the bird itself causes the pup to stop and there is no pinch collar applied. No click and treat is necessary the sighting of the bird is enough stimulation, though i have continued it at times but it doesn't add much once we are formally on birds.

This is more than enough detail for a forum like this but I will add that I use the same progression to overlay the active e-collar collar for stop...back to the board, pinch collar stim for stop, then away from the board, pinch collar stim for stop, using the click and treat when the dog does it right. Then back to stop to flush using the collar for non-compliance. The point being the dog always knows the behavior cold and it reduces the severity needed in corrections, and the behaviors needed around birds are established away from the birds.

Training seems complicated if you see it as a means to an end, if your passion is the training itself, I believe your creativity and patience can produce results a whole lot of different ways. The question is always what do you want and enjoy in the process, what do you want for your purpose and finished product and what will you invest or sacrifice to get it?

Post by **Sharon** » Wed Sep 02, 2015 12:46 pm

Excellent post on how clicker training can be further refined.

When I said , "Of course once you hit the fields/ training with birds clicker training is not useful.", I meant once the dog can't hear the clicker............ But as you said , it can sure be used to transition to other skills needed when the dog is near.

polmaise · Post by **polmaise** » Wed Sep 02, 2015 12:53 pm

Chukar12 wrote: Training seems complicated if you see it as a means to an end, if your passion is the training itself, I believe your creativity and patience can produce results a whole lot of different ways. The question is always what do you want and enjoy in the process, what do you want for your purpose and finished product and what will you invest or sacrifice to get it?

Thanks for posting this 'Chukar12' .
Having many Tools in a Toolbox makes one able to complete many tasks.
There are far too many Trainers (especially on the Internet) who Promote and advocate 'Only One' !........> ''Theirs'' !

jtcwces · Post by **jtcwces** » Thu Sep 03, 2015 8:34 am

my pup is only 7 weeks old and had his first day of "school" sunday, the trainer had him sitting and staying in half an hour, says she can finish a dog out with nothing but the clicker method, and eluded to some of the things Chuckar12 was saying........ im no trainer so all info thus far is helpful to me, thanks

Ouzel · Post by **Ouzel** » Thu Sep 03, 2015 9:14 am

I've become an advocate of "clicker" training because of it's power to shape the dog's behavior for the many tasks needed for a gun dog. Actually I don't often use a "clicker" but merely trade treats for behavior I want to encourage ("Good girl/boy" works like a click too). I used it instead of force fetch and it worked flawlessly - and at a younger age. I used it for heel, down, come, etc. I use it for shaping the dog's turning so I can line it to different directions for blind retrieves. I'm currently using it to "steer" the dog left or right via a shepherd whistle en route to a blind on land or water. I've never used it for stop to flush so I really liked Chukar's comments. In short, clicker training has opened up a whole new world of dog training for me. I still use the ecollar for proofing (like FF) but clicker training is quicker and easier than traditional methods for a lot of training tasks.

polmaise · Post by **polmaise** » Thu Sep 03, 2015 9:22 am

jtcwces wrote:my pup is only 7 weeks old and had his first day of "school" sunday, the trainer had him sitting and staying in half an hour, says she can finish a dog out with nothing but the clicker method, and eluded to some of the things Chuckar12 was saying........ im no trainer so all info thus far is helpful to me, thanks

I would be real disappointed if any dog trainer could not get a 7 week old pup to sit and stay in half an hour ,without a clicker .
Sounds like it's a good tool for some like your self that can't .
.................
It would be nice to know what the trainer would classify as ''Finish'' ?

Post by **ezzy333** » Thu Sep 03, 2015 10:40 am

I would be concerned over anyone trying to train a 7 week old pup other than it's mother and littermates.

jtcwces · Post by **jtcwces** » Thu Sep 03, 2015 11:21 am

if i were a professional like some of you i wouldnt be on this forum to bash on people actually using it to try and learn something from. if you know it all what are you doing here? to those who offered real and valuable info, thank you........... feel free to archive this pissing match whenever youd like, im done... guess ill just read a freaking book and not ask for real life experienced help

polmaise · Post by **polmaise** » Thu Sep 03, 2015 12:02 pm

jtcwces wrote:if i were a professional like some of you i wouldnt be on this forum to bash on people actually using it to try and learn something from. if you know it all what are you doing here? to those who offered real and valuable info, thank you........... feel free to archive this pissing match whenever youd like, im done... guess ill just read a freaking book and not ask for real life experienced help

Personally ,I don't see any bashing ?..
But I'm sure you read the statement and the profile of the site before you joined ,after all this is a 'Gun Dog Forum' and although there are many different types of 'Gun Dog' Trainers and Handlers with different breeds and from different activities. Your first post I read (although it came across as 'Shouting' with the capitals ) actually invited both sides of who does and doesn't ?

jtcwces wrote:RECENTLY EXPOSED MY DOGS TO A TRAINER USING THE CLICKER METHOD AND WAS REALLY IMPRESSED WITH HOW FAST THEY PICKED UP ON AND REMEMBERED EVERYTHING WE WENT OVER IN A SHORT SESSION. HAVE ANY OF YOU TRIED THIS AND IF SO WHAT ARE SOME IDEAS FOR TEACHING, AND IF YOU DIDNT CARE FOR IT ELABORATE A LITTLE IF YOU DONT MIND. THANKS IN ADV.

Now, If you wish to read a book then that's fine ,but it won't answer your questions if you ask it something ? Depending on the book you choose it may well give all the answers you were looking for in the first place

....A forum is definitely not a book!

There are some very experienced folk on here, and there are also some very inexperienced folk on here.
If you just accept the advice from the people who agree with you then have you learned anything?

My own thoughts at first,was that you were a Troll

BTW, whether one is a Pro Trainer or not. A bit of raw liver in the hand above the head of a hungry 7 week old pup and it will sit and stay for as long as 'give it '

Post by **Sharon** » Thu Sep 03, 2015 12:35 pm

"Sounds like it's a good tool for some like your self that can't . " quote Polmaise

You don't call that nasty? Wow.
..................

Re: "CLICK"ER TRAINING

Postby jtcwces » Thu Sep 03, 2015 12:21 pm

If I were a professional like some of you, I wouldn't be on this forum to bash on people actually using it to try and learn something from. If you know it all, what are you doing here? to those who offered real and valuable info, thank you........... feel free to archive this pissing match whenever you'd like. I'm done... guess ill just read a freaking book and not ask for real life experienced help.

.............................
Don't leave because of one person. Most of us are not professionals here and are glad to help anytime.

polmaise · Post by **polmaise** » Thu Sep 03, 2015 12:54 pm

The OP by admission stated

jtcwces wrote:my pup is only 7 weeks old and had his first day of "school" sunday, the trainer had him sitting and staying in half an hour,

Sharon wrote:"Sounds like it's a good tool for some like your self that can't . " quote Polmaise

You don't call that nasty? Wow.
..................

Nope ! ..Fact .
However , I do say that some fuel fires :roll:

kcbullets · Post by **kcbullets** » Thu Sep 03, 2015 1:31 pm

OP, you can get lots of good advice hear. Just learn to discard the bs, and use the comments that seem to make sense to you as well as applicable to your dog. Don't get discouraged... good and bs in all.. good luck with pup

kcbullets · Post by **kcbullets** » Thu Sep 03, 2015 1:37 pm

Also, although i do not know Polmaise, I have read his posts on here and other forums. Since he is from Scotland it is difficult for me to understand sometimes. But with that said, from what I do understand, he is very knowledgeable. I think the difference in communication seems to allow some misreading his post at times. I enjoy reading his posts.

Ouzel · Post by **Ouzel** » Thu Sep 03, 2015 3:23 pm

I picked up a new book, "Absolutely Positively Gundog Training" by Robert Milner. He's a respected ex-field trailer and has written several books. He's very knowledgeable and I can recommend this book pretty much without reservation. That said, positive or clicker training won't make a field champion of your dog, but he presents ways to get what most folks want. Well worth the $12 cost. Positive training is how most animals are now trained so at some point even the old school naysayers will begin to get on board.

polmaise · Post by **polmaise** » Thu Sep 03, 2015 4:24 pm

Ouzel wrote:That said, positive or clicker training won't make a field champion of your dog,

Neither will an e-collar !

Both require something special .
As for 'Purely Positive' or 'Absolutely Positive' or any other 'Only Positive' ?..I have found that using both 'Positive' and 'Negative' is 'Balanced' .
Circus Trainers were using Place boards before Pro Dog Trainers ..The whip was for the 'audience'

'Lassie' was finding lost people down wells with a rope from the shed long before 'Search and Rescue' was founded

..Them ole timers will verify it !

greg jacobs · Post by **greg jacobs** » Thu Sep 03, 2015 6:43 pm

Willow creek has a bunch of youtube videos using clicker training on young pups. All positive with a nice touch. I copy some of his stuff without a clicker. Gets a young pup off to a good start. On there website they are kind of random but if you go to youtube they are in order for the age of pup. If you are interested that gives you a little taste. Definitely worth watching

Post by **mnaj_springer** » Thu Sep 03, 2015 7:11 pm

To the OP... There are also ways to ignore people on here and you'll only see their posts if you choose to. In fact I've been ignoring polmaise for weeks now. It's given me lots of peace of mind.

polmaise · Post by **polmaise** » Fri Sep 04, 2015 9:16 am

Your only saying that to please me