Steadiness Training Question

skunk · Post by **skunk** » Wed Jun 17, 2015 8:33 am

I'm working on steadiness training with my dog this summer and attempting to follow the Perfect Start / Finish methods. I am currently on the "whoa with birds" step so my dog will whoa on a check cord a couple of yards away from me and he is e-collar conditioned to do this as well. The "whoa with birds" step is essentially whoaing your dog on a check cord and then having a partner walk out and toss a pigeon. The dog handler just keeps the dog whoad while the bird flies away.

The Perfect Finish DVD actually says you can use remote launchers for this instead of a helper and since I don't have a willing helper, I would like to use my launchers and homing pigeons for this in my back yard. Has anyone else followed this method and used launchers in a non-hunting environment like a backyard? The DVD doesn't use the launcher method as they have a helper throw the birds and they're in a training field. I would just be doing this in my backyard so my dog would be able to see the launchers -- I think this is fine because at this stage he is not pointing the bird anyway (they separate steadiness from pointing until the dog understands the steadiness piece by itself... less temptation I guess) and I would have the launchers placed out about 30 yards at first.

Do you have experience following this method without a helper to throw birds? If so, do you have any tips to share or advice on using the launchers in this stage? Seems pretty straight forward to me but since the DVD doesn't cover it in depth, I'm curious about others experiences.

Oh, and I did try sending a message to Jon Hann from Perfection Kennels but haven't heard back yet.

aulrich · Post by **aulrich** » Wed Jun 17, 2015 9:17 am

I did start in a non hunting area (but even though it was in the city it does resemble hunting area) it helped early , but it also delayed me when I needed to get the gun out, since using them also delayed me from getting my pigeons distance trained so I don't know if it helped over all vs getting my birds trained to fly back from the final training location first.

I would hit up your local NAVHDA or local hunting forum to try and find a training partner, long term it will make things easier

Gordon Guy · Post by **Gordon Guy** » Wed Jun 17, 2015 9:29 am

Yes, to your question. I don't have a helper either, so I use various methods. Yes, I use launchers, starting by putting the launcher further away and as the dog starts getting the idea I move them closer to tempt the dog more. I also use bird bags that I carry over my shoulder. The dog is on a checkcord, I whoa the dog and release birds after they are still. They pick that up pretty fast. Early on I allow the pups to chase to build desire and a sense that they can't catch them, but when whoa training, no chasing the birds allowed. Birds can be thrown fairly close to the dog to tempt them to break.

There are times the wings of the pigeons actually hit the dogs flanks.

I have e-collars on them but just stop them the check cord...repetition is the key.

I do this after force fetch training to "Sweeten" them back up. They look forward to the birds so they tolerate the FF training better.

Kellym · Post by **Kellym** » Wed Jun 17, 2015 9:38 am

IMO if the dog sees the launcher he will get sight oriented. I live in the city but have several places I have found nearby to run a dog. I have found it pretty easy to get access to work dogs when land owners know you won't be carrying a gun. You don't need a large property just something that will let you quarter your dog on a check cord into the sent. As soon as you realize he has cought the sent stop him. If he moves after you stop him release the bird. He will think he flushed it. If he holds you can walk in front a launch the bird as if you flushes it. Let him chase it helps with prey drive. You can take the chase away later

skunk · Post by **skunk** » Wed Jun 17, 2015 9:41 am

aulrich wrote:I did start in a non hunting area (but even though it was in the city it does resemble hunting area) it helped early , but it also delayed me when I needed to get the gun out, since using them also delayed me from getting my pigeons distance trained so I don't know if it helped over all vs getting my birds trained to fly back from the final training location first.

I would hit up your local NAVHDA or local hunting forum to try and find a training partner, long term it will make things easier

How far did your birds have to travel? Mine will need to fly about 20 miles and it takes me 30 minutes to drive to our training grounds. I've had my pigeons free flying every day and they're usually gone until afternoon when they come back for food (I haven't been real diligent about training them for trapping rapidly). On the weekends I have been taking them out further away and releasing them... slowly working toward the training grounds. So far I've only done 1 mile, 2 miles, and 3 miles. This weekend I want to jump up to about 8 miles I think since they seem to be doing just fine and flying very well.

Also, I do have some training partners I work with from my NAVHDA chapter but none of them live nearby, unfortunately. We train together at the training grounds.

Gordon Guy wrote:Yes, to your question. I don't have a helper either, so I use various methods. Yes, I use launchers, starting by putting the launcher further away and as the dog starts getting the idea I move them closer to tempt the dog more. I also use bird bags that I carry over my shoulder. The dog is on a checkcord, I whoa the dog and release birds after they are still. They pick that up pretty fast. Early on I allow the pups to chase to build desire and a sense that they can't catch them, but when whoa training, no chasing the birds allowed. Birds can be thrown fairly close to the dog to tempt them to break.

There are times the wings of the pigeons actually hit the dogs flanks.

I have e-collars on them but just stop them the check cord...repetition is the key.

I do this after force fetch training to "Sweeten" them back up. They look forward to the birds so they tolerate the FF training better.

A few questions / comments:
- Did you worry about the dog being able to see the launcher at first? I do have some landscaped areas I could partially hide them in, if needed.
- Carrying birds along with you is a good idea too but I will need to wait for that until he's more trustworthy. His prey drive is high so he wouldn't be able to handle that proximity right now.
- Oh, and this dog has been through FF already this past winter. I think sometimes I'm too hard on him when he breaks (I'll man-handle him a bit to put him back in place) but I'm trying to take a calmer approach... It doesn't seem to have affected his desire at all.

skunk · Post by **skunk** » Wed Jun 17, 2015 9:46 am

Kellym wrote:IMO if the dog sees the launcher he will get sight oriented. I live in the city but have several places I have found nearby to run a dog. I have found it pretty easy to get access to work dogs when land owners know you won't be carrying a gun. You don't need a large property just something that will let you quarter your dog on a check cord into the sent. As soon as you realize he has cought the sent stop him. If he moves after you stop him release the bird. He will think he flushed it. If he holds you can walk in front a launch the bird as if you flushes it. Let him chase it helps with prey drive. You can take the chase away later

In the Perfect Finish method, they have you teach steadiness in this (super-summarized) fashion:
1) Teach the dog to whoa by your side with check cord.
2) Teach the dog to whoa out away from your side a few yards (still on check cord).
3) Transition to e-collar stimulation to reinforce the whoa.

Once that is done, they do "whoa with birds". Essentially, you just have the dog walking around on a check cord (not hunting) and tell him to whoa. If he stops on his own without much correction, you quickly release a bird into the air. The idea is they get "rewarded" by seeing a bird when they do what they're supposed to do (whoa).

Once they're good with whoa'ing around birds, then you work them into scent from a bird in a launcher and have them point it. You then do the same thing with releasing birds into the air. Therefore, they've separated out the steadiness to flush and pointing. I think the logic is that it is easier for the dog to understand what you want by breaking it down into stages and not combining pointing and steadiness to flush all at once. You work them into it slower this way.

So this is why I am not too concerned about the dog seeing the launcher in the beginning because he is not pointing it -- he stops because I tell him to and the bird is supposed to be down wind so he can't smell it.

Gordon Guy · Post by **Gordon Guy** » Wed Jun 17, 2015 9:59 am

The launchers are not visible when I place them out. I agree with the comment above that the dogs are not pointing scent at this stage of the process.

They can see the bird bag on my shoulder.

After a couple times of training in your yard your dog will know what you're up to. They figure it out pretty fast. That's why once they "Get it" in your back yard you have to take them other places to "generalize" the behavior. The training in subsequent locations is quicker because the building blocks for the specific behavior are already in place.

Gordon Guy · Post by **Gordon Guy** » Wed Jun 17, 2015 10:13 am

skunk wrote: Oh, and this dog has been through FF already this past winter. I think sometimes I'm too hard on him when he breaks (I'll man-handle him a bit to put him back in place) but I'm trying to take a calmer approach... It doesn't seem to have affected his desire at all.

Because I work Setters I have found that a correction with the e-collar (on the lowest felt level) a much calmer approach then picking up and putting them back. I guess that depending on what happens between the pick-up and the put back...

skunk · Post by **skunk** » Wed Jun 17, 2015 11:32 am

Gordon Guy wrote:
skunk wrote: Oh, and this dog has been through FF already this past winter. I think sometimes I'm too hard on him when he breaks (I'll man-handle him a bit to put him back in place) but I'm trying to take a calmer approach... It doesn't seem to have affected his desire at all.
Because I work Setters I have found that a correction with the e-collar (on the lowest felt level) a much calmer approach then picking up and putting them back. I guess that depending on what happens between the pick-up and the put back...

My dog is a Griff and sometimes he acts soft but when there are birds around, he can act like a real knucklehead... Still, tonight when we practice, I am going to be more gentle and just stick with the e-collar stimulation (on lowest possible). I find Jon in the Perfect Start/Finish videos to be an inspiring example of patience that I need to achieve in dog training (and life in general!

)

When I do pick him up, the first couple of times it is gentle but as he acts more and more like a fool, I will grab him by the skin between his back leg and belly as well as the collar and lift him up and plant him down more firmly. He will yip when I do that... Wife doesn't like it

clink83 · Post by **clink83** » Wed Jun 17, 2015 12:33 pm

If your dog bit you every time you missed a bird would you want to hunt? You should correct a dog, not punish it. Combining punishment, birds, and "whoa" is a good way to develop problems later.

aulrich · Post by **aulrich** » Wed Jun 17, 2015 1:31 pm

It almost sounds like you need to back track a bit, work whoa without birds and in different places to give it a bit of polish, PS/PF is incremental enough that if the dog is not getting a step it's safe to say the dog did not quite get the step before. For mine I had to go back an add some twists to some drills to smooth things out. Patience is more useful than "harsh" correction. The NAVHDA green book finishes whoa with the ultimate distraction, a bird on a string. I still pull that drill out now and again in the yard to drive home the fact that whoa means whoa.
There were a couple of times I had to back up and redo things one was when I was at "shoot a dead bird out of the air", but I also added a few days of shooting a tethered bird put up with a launcher. The flapping bird made the temptation a little higher than just a dead bird and mixing in a purposely missing a live bird thrown in helps too.

I also ran into trouble transitioning from pigeons in a launcher to loose chuckars on the ground, so I ended up putting chuckars in the traps and launching them with no shot if he rode in.

Ironically this was after I thought I had him done, and took him to a training day to polish up before his UT test and the wheels fell off.

As for the pigeons, the longest part is getting them in shape for the old birds and routing for the years young birds(I usually hamstring myself by not starting the breeding early enough in the winter so I am usually stuck waiting on the YB to start)

I do two release from all points of the compass working out to 2 miles then go for distance call it a month and a half or so throwing in weather, work and family.

skunk · Post by **skunk** » Wed Jun 17, 2015 2:21 pm

aulrich wrote:As for the pigeons, the longest part is getting them in shape for the old birds and routing for the years young birds(I usually hamstring myself by not starting the breeding early enough in the winter so I am usually stuck waiting on the YB to start)

I do two release from all points of the compass working out to 2 miles then go for distance call it a month and a half or so throwing in weather, work and family.

Mine are all young birds too since I just started my small flock (of 6). They've been free flying for a few weeks now. I haven't been doing the compass approach -- I've only been working out toward our training grounds since that's the only place I plan to use them.

When they fly from the loft, I have no idea where they go but they're gone for hours (sometimes all day until afternoon) so I'm pretty sure they know the area pretty well. One was lost for at least 5 days after flying from the loft and I thought he got eaten by a hawk... Lo and behold, the darn bird showed up in the loft again.

skunk · Post by **skunk** » Wed Jun 17, 2015 2:21 pm

clink83 wrote:If your dog bit you every time you missed a bird would you want to hunt? You should correct a dog, not punish it. Combining punishment, birds, and "whoa" is a good way to develop problems later.

He does bite me when I miss... he's a mean bugger.

aulrich · Post by **aulrich** » Wed Jun 17, 2015 3:29 pm

That is an important part of the bird development when they fly out of sight, that means they are routing and learning the area. In theory a good genetics young birds homer will route as far as 5 miles though 2 seems more normal according to the internet.

I do the compass thing to make up for my poor starting genetics of my loft, I have been adding a little lead to the gene pool along with upgrading the breeding stock.

I understand that some of the racer folks will do the points of a compass out to 10 miles but I guess when you go anywhere from 300-700 miles during a race it pays to have a bigger home range.

Kellym · Post by **Kellym** » Wed Jun 17, 2015 4:04 pm

skunk wrote:
Kellym wrote:IMO if the dog sees the launcher he will get sight oriented. I live in the city but have several places I have found nearby to run a dog. I have found it pretty easy to get access to work dogs when land owners know you won't be carrying a gun. You don't need a large property just something that will let you quarter your dog on a check cord into the sent. As soon as you realize he has cought the sent stop him. If he moves after you stop him release the bird. He will think he flushed it. If he holds you can walk in front a launch the bird as if you flushes it. Let him chase it helps with prey drive. You can take the chase away later
In the Perfect Finish method, they have you teach steadiness in this (super-summarized) fashion:
1) Teach the dog to whoa by your side with check cord.
2) Teach the dog to whoa out away from your side a few yards (still on check cord).
3) Transition to e-collar stimulation to reinforce the whoa.

Once that is done, they do "whoa with birds". Essentially, you just have the dog walking around on a check cord (not hunting) and tell him to whoa. If he stops on his own without much correction, you quickly release a bird into the air. The idea is they get "rewarded" by seeing a bird when they do what they're supposed to do (whoa).
Once they're good with whoa'ing around birds, then you work them into scent from a bird in a launcher and have them point it. You then do the same thing with releasing birds into the air. Therefore, they've separated out the steadiness to flush and pointing. I think the logic is that it is easier for the dog to understand what you want by breaking it down into stages and not combining pointing and steadiness to flush all at once. You work them into it slower this way.

So this is why I am not too concerned about the dog seeing the launcher in the beginning because he is not pointing it -- he stops because I tell him to and the bird is supposed to be down wind so he can't smell it.

I understand the concept. dog learns to stop when he sees a bird fly. But by him seeing the launcher he will learn to associate the launcer to "whoa" and become sight oriented. I am all for pulling a bird out of a bag and letting it fly. makes him start using his nose looking for a bird. just as having one in a launcher he doesn't see. he can learn if he gets too close to bird it flys. Makes him be cautious and use his nose..

here is a good podcast to listen to. Good info regardles of training system you use.
http://www.stitcher.com/podcast/the-hun ... oplay=true

skunk · Post by **skunk** » Wed Jun 17, 2015 9:09 pm

I ended up hiding my launchers behind some landscaping and the dog was inside kenneled up while I put the birds in. Seems to have worked well.

He held pretty well without much of a reminder. I'll repeat a few more times in the yard and then transition to the field when my pigeons are ready.

Gordon Guy · Post by **Gordon Guy** » Thu Jun 18, 2015 7:51 am

It works....Also, I can't shoot a starter pistol in town so I bought one of the kid cap guns. With the red plastic caps that are in a circle. It's not like a shotgun of course, but it still provides more temptation for the dog to break.

aulrich · Post by **aulrich** » Thu Jun 18, 2015 8:28 am

Funny how folks get even with blanks, I even got the you can't use a gun in the city, and I'm calling the cops speech one day

he was still grumbling after I showed him the bumper launcher which bears no resemblance to a gun.

skunk · Post by **skunk** » Thu Jun 18, 2015 8:36 am

I actually called the police station here in Madison and spoke to an officer about using a blank pistol. He said it's probably not technically illegal but it would probably freak the neighbors out so I should probably just stick to using the blank pistol in a more rural area.

At the time I was just wondering about it for conditioning the pup to gunfire. I think for this steadiness piece I should have my pigeons ready to fly further by the time we're at that step, so I'm not too worried about it.

Post by **Sharon** » Thu Jun 18, 2015 1:03 pm

Re: Steadiness Training Question

Postby skunk » Wed Jun 17, 2015 10:09 pm

I ended up hiding my launchers behind some landscaping and the dog was inside kenneled up while I put the birds in. Seems to have worked well.

He held pretty well without much of a reminder. I'll repeat a few more times in the yard and then transition to the field when my pigeons are ready.

..................................

Good work!

If I pulled out a starter pistol here in town , in Canada, I'd be on the ground spread eagle in minutes.

polmaise · Post by **polmaise** » Thu Jun 18, 2015 2:34 pm

Sharon wrote: in Canada, I'd be on the ground spread eagle in minutes.

We are a bit more reserved this side of the pond !

Vive le difference

BVK · Post by **BVK** » Thu Jun 18, 2015 9:47 pm

When I get to steadiness work, once the dog knows & thoroughly understands whoa, I walk him/her on check cord throw a dummy or docken and then command whoa and reinforce it in that order (very important). Pretty soon the dog sees the flying object and anticipates the verbal whoa to follow & begins to stop at the sight of the flying object (association). Then, I switch to throwing pigeons & repeat the process...pretty soon they see the bird fly & anticipate the command & begin to stop at the sight of the flying birds. Next step is to add the blank pistol after tossing the bird. Pretty soon a flying bird & gun shot are associated with whoa. Next you can bring in the traps & randomly pop (w/out them scenting) & you will have a dog stopping to both flushing birds & the sound of gunfire. After you have them reliably stopping to flush & the shot, you put it all together by planting birds in traps, allow your dog to point the bird, you walk in & flush (which now is associated with whoa), you shoot (associated with whoa) the bird, reinforce steadiness & send for the retrieve. This takes time & much repetition, but really solidifies steadiness in a manner in which makes sense for the dog without requiring heavy hands. Now, use this same foundation to reinforce backing. Use a cut out, auto backer or real dog, a bird & a trap. Bring fido around the corner or over the rise where your pointing dog or dummy is set up with a bird in a trap. Either your dog will back or he won't? If he does not back at the sight of the pointing set up, pop the bird (which.....he associates with whoa) & he will stop (if not, you have the right to correct him). Repeat....pretty soon, he associates the pointing dog with a flushing bird (which he associates with whoa) and will start hitting the brakes on his own. Sorry that got long winded. I hope that makes sense?

oldbeek · Post by **oldbeek** » Thu Jun 18, 2015 10:18 pm

in BVK's post, when I start shooting the bird, the dog knows I am busy with the gun or she is just to excited and breaks to retrieve without command. I have to get in front of her, get eye contact and have a shooter flush and shoot the bird. She knows I have my finger on the e-collar button. She works perfect and waits for retrieve command. This is after months of check cord drill on all the steps up to the shotgun. You may need a helper to shoot for you at this point.

BVK · Post by **BVK** » Fri Jun 19, 2015 5:44 am

RayGubernat · Post by **RayGubernat** » Mon Jun 22, 2015 9:02 am

skunk wrote:I actually called the police station here in Madison and spoke to an officer about using a blank pistol. He said it's probably not technically illegal but it would probably freak the neighbors out so I should probably just stick to using the blank pistol in a more rural area.

At the time I was just wondering about it for conditioning the pup to gunfire. I think for this steadiness piece I should have my pigeons ready to fly further by the time we're at that step, so I'm not too worried about it.

I can't say what is right in your neighborhood, but I went over to each neighbor and explained to them what I was doing with the blank pistol, and that the blank pistol was basically a glorified capgun. I showed them the blank pistol and that it was impossible to fire a bullet from it. I also informed my local PD that I would be using a cap pistol and a blank pistol for training...during daylight hours, just in case they got a call. The desk sergeant started to get into it and I cut him off by stating that I was just informing them...not asking permission. Never had a problem and that was in the 'burbs of central NJ.

RayG

Post by **ezzy333** » Mon Jun 22, 2015 9:31 am

Sharon wrote:Re: Steadiness Training Question

Postby skunk » Wed Jun 17, 2015 10:09 pm

I ended up hiding my launchers behind some landscaping and the dog was inside kenneled up while I put the birds in. Seems to have worked well.

He held pretty well without much of a reminder. I'll repeat a few more times in the yard and then transition to the field when my pigeons are ready.

..................................

Good work!

If I pulled out a starter pistol here in town , in Canada, I'd be on the ground spread eagle in minutes.

Can I come watch? It always looks prettier when there is snow on the ground.

polmaise · Post by **polmaise** » Mon Jun 22, 2015 1:01 pm

skunk wrote:I'm working on steadiness training with my dog this summer and attempting to follow the Perfect Start / Finish methods. I am currently on the "whoa with birds" step so my dog will whoa on a check cord a couple of yards away from me and he is e-collar conditioned to do this as well. The "whoa with birds" step is essentially whoaing your dog on a check cord and then having a partner walk out and toss a pigeon. The dog handler just keeps the dog whoad while the bird flies away.

I 'surprisingly' ? Or not ..work from a different sheet.
Whether ,Retriever or Spaniel or Pointer ! ..I don't think it's an exercise that you specifically train for or 'can' create a method for that suits every individual dog ?...I do believe you can condition yourself for 'steadiness training' however. ..Some believe in 'control' such as e-collar or long line ,check chord or 'whoa barrels' or some other 'wonder' tool for ''' Actual steadiness'' ?..But what are you after? .......For this dumb dog (dumb because it can't speak

) to Not hunt chase or catch ? Hmmm ?
Sharon spread eagle on the snow at the sound of a shot would be the same as a clap of the hands when a dog in full scent mode when hunting 'merely' an interruption to the activity it is already enjoying ?
Steadiness , overall ..no matter the breed to me personally ! is more about what the dog and handler are conveying to each other for the same cause! ?..ie ..get the game in the gob ! But during the process to achieve that end goal for both we have to be working together and none are doing their own thing and no dog in the world wakes up in the morning saying ''I'm gonna get this wrong today'' !..They (I'm sure) are also not saying ''I'm gonna get this right today'' ! ..
It's my 2 cents . But 'Steadiness' is not a drill or an exercise or a method of steps by any author. .......It's what you convey everyday

.
I have never used 'Whoa' ! I must confess ..so I can't say it works or not. Just never required it .
Steadiness in the line of fire with multiple shots and multiple dogs and multiple targets and multiple distractions in a place of multiple game however I have ! ..and it requires training far beyond any individual training technique (imo) ...It requires doing it on game , with game and getting it wrong to get it right

Post by **Sharon** » Mon Jun 22, 2015 1:15 pm

"Sharon spread eagle on the snow at the sound of a shot .........." quote P

LOL You misunderstood what I said. I said that if I used a starter pistol in the city I would be , " spread eagle on the ground ".... because the Police would be there is 30 seconds telling me to "get on the ground".

polmaise · Post by **polmaise** » Mon Jun 22, 2015 2:15 pm

Sharon wrote:"Sharon spread eagle on the snow at the sound of a shot .........." quote P

I said that if I used a starter pistol in the city I would be , " spread eagle on the ground ".... because the Police would be there is 30 seconds telling me to "get on the ground".

What's a City ?

Nice response time though

You must be special?....I called the cops last Thursday ! ..They are still looking for the place

..Sat nav huh !