Gun Dog Forum

I've noticed in some training pic's in this forum the use of an e-collar on the flank of a dog. What is the purpose of this positioning? Why would some prefer this to positioning ahead of neck collar? Maybe someone could reference me to a training book or video by a trainer that uses this method and I could get the info, if it's to involved to be explained here.

Huntsmith aka Delmar, Rick & Ronnie Smith were (to my knowledge) the first to incorporated this technique. Basically it is a component of the "Whoa Post" process. I am sure if you did a search "whoa post" on this site, you would find a ton of stuff pertaining to it.

We like the flank collar for whoa work. It keeps the correction away from the head (nose) during bird work. All obedience correction (i.e. handling, here, recall, etc.) is done with neck position. In theory you are running with two collars...neck and flank. Whoa work starts FIRST in the yard with check cord wrapped around flank. Then overlay e-collar.

Occasionally a dog will sit when stimulated on the neck. The use of a flank collar will usually eliminate the "sit" response.

I've had several people that tried it here in the NW tell me they couldn't get it to work. I suppose there is a learning curve to it. The beauty of the whoa post without the flank collar and the half hitch is it's simplicity. Lot of people sing the praise of that system, I have never understood it.

There's a reason a dog sit's when stimulated on the neck; it doesn't know what you want so takes a hopefully safe posture. If the e-collar is properly used, the dog will only sit with stimulation if you have actually taught bit with the e-collar. Other than that, dog's sit down because they are confused, a flank collar will not help that.

I'm currently following the Perfect start/Perfect finish program with my Pup they do not use it and he explains why in the video and it made sense to me. Maybe someone can expand on there reasoning I cant remember word for word off hand.

I've found my dogs are much more stylish when whoa broke with flank pressure as opposed to neck pressure. There is a lot less confusion for the dog, stim on the flank means stop, stim on the neck means come to me or find me. I use a mix of couple diff training methods but the flank training is something that is key to breaking a dog with style. Do your research on the silent command system watch the videos they lay out a solid program. I've modified for my use, but I think there program is concise and works well

Depending on how I feel about the dog I will either do the Smith Method (whoa post / flank) or the neck, Bill West, Gibbons, Lindly, Walker etc. etc.

I do like the Smith Method as you do all of your flank / stand still work in front of the dog. That's where you eventually will be when you are working birds. No person is the same and so it is with dogs. I think sometimes you must vary your approach if needed.

The way it was explained to me was essentially this:

The collar on the neck was for obedience type work.

The collar on the flank is for cues around birds and very light flank stimulation will not affect the dog's style because they do not associated the flank stim with the bird as they often do with neck stim that is often much higher.

For many years I did obedience work in the yard and both heel and WHOA were treated as obedience commands. In the field, whoa was still an obedience command, so if the dog busted a bird and then took off after it.. that was a nothing. I would pop the checkcord, but that was all. However, when I hollered "WHOA": the SOB had better stop and stand or it would get lit up, because it disobeyed an obedience command.

The dogs usually figured out, fairly quickly that the scent or sight of the bird also meant "WHOA", and then we were all good.

In more recent years, the kind of dogs I prefer seem to have gotten softer in temperament and my most recent two dogs have responded better to the collar on the flank, for bird work.

You gotta go with the flow. What works the best is what you go with.

RayG

[quote="codym"

] stim on the neck means come to me or find me.

I can relate - have seen this happen more than once. Anyone else?

codym wrote:stim on the flank means stop, stim on the neck means come to me or find me.

That sounds like you're using the e-collar as a command, rather than as a tool to enforce commands. If that is the case you're minimizing the value of a dynamic tool. Stimulation without a command, voice or whistle, is what's called a "cold burn"; stimulus that provides no information. That is virtually opposite of what training provides.

EvanG

Tejas,

Occasionally a dog will sit when stimulated on the neck

, you are usually using either to much heat, or to much stimulation. To much of either, and the dog will usually get nervous, and sit

Evan, You are on the money, to an extent.
With The West/Lindley Method, that AZ BRITT GUY mentioned..... We teach with the pinch collar, as the dog starts doing properly, we start overlaying a ecollar stimulation and no words. Since there aren't any words spoken, the dog learns when it feels it, to just stop and stand. When we are teaching the handling, there are few words used, so it makes the collar stimulation, mean something else. When adding the word, it changes what's being asked from the dog. It also helps keep the dogs negatives away. We teach 98-99% of the dogs with no flank work. The 1-2%, lol is for the more determined dogs, that don't want to throw in the towel on the chase. But, usually very few, because they understand what we have been teaching.......by fairness to the dog. The method will work with all the dogs, you don't make them learn, you help them. By the helping, you keep boogers, and fingerprints off the dogs. Everything with a dog, happens for a reason.
It could remind you of starting, and going threw the whistle sit. without whistle, and words.........just Q's. Thanks Jonesy

I use the Perfection Kennel method. Simple, simple, simple. A collar, a dog and a leash. Lots of birds. No gimmicky stuff like a post, barrel, additional e-collars....but I'm biased, it has worked for my last 6 hunting only dogs and the current 4 I'm competing with. I like a method that makes sense to me and is very easy to accomplish in the field - a leash, a collar, a dog and birds is about as easy as it gets IMO.

Others find other systems good - but I find them cumbersome, especially the whoa barrel or whoa board. An extra collar would just be a PIA for me. I'm not taking that stuff into the field with me, so I find it easier to use what I'm going to use in the field while I'm in the training yard as well. Maybe I'm just a simpleton .

I use the whoa post with the hitch around the flank, which progresses to an ecollar on the flank. This is the progression that I use.

The dog first learns that he can release the pressure of the rope around his flank by standing still and not fighting it, no verbal command is give. Then the rope around the flank is overlaid with an ecollar around the flank, no verbal command is given, and continuous stimulation is used. The next step is the ecollar, on continuous, with no verbal command. When this is solid I start to overlay the command 'whoa'. I then transition the collar to the neck with continous stimulation overlaid with the verbal command 'Whoa'. The last step is the command 'whoa' only. I think that is pretty close to the Smith method.

I have worked on handling for months before any 'whoa' work is done. I use an collar on the neck with momentary stimulation to cue and enforce come, or come this way.

For the rest of the dog's life I will enforce come/come this way with momentary stimulation from a collar worn on the neck. I will enforce 'whoa' with a continuous stimulation from the same collar. They absolutely know the difference.

These are really the only commands that I teach a dog, unless I force break them to retrieve.

When I first started years ago, it seemed like I spent a great deal of time with a dog on a checkcord. I have greatly reduced the use of a checkcord.

The using the collar as a "command" is, when you get down to the brass tacks, no different than most force fetch programs. In college speak, it is negative reinforcement. In short, the dog learns to turn off the stim by complying with the command.
- The dog learns that whoa-ing/standing turns off the belly stim.
- The dog learns that picking up the buck or paint roller turns off the ear pinch.
- By coming when called, the neck stim turns off.

This is an extension of the typical using the collar to punish non-compliance. It is not a limiting of the usage of the collar, it is an extension of the usage of the collar.

A collar around the flank and the neck. Man it's hard enough for me to control one collar. I can't imagine adding a second and having to keep it all straight. I already feel like I need three hands. I'm with Elsa on this. Keep it simple.

Fun dog wrote:A collar around the flank and the neck. Man it's hard enough for me to control one collar. I can't imagine adding a second and having to keep it all straight.

I thought the SAME thing until I did it a few times. Here is the key I keep in mind. Relax and don't be trigger happy.

In training you typically know where the birds will be. When the pup is out running and handling, all you think about is the neck collar. When the pup is getting birdy or near the area, flip the transmitter toggle to the flank and leave it there...YOU have now switched (in your mind) from obedience to bird work. By now your dog should have gone thru the yard work and know what whoa or flank pressure means. If you are worried about him just running right in and ripping the bird out, you are not ready to be in the field with a flank collar. Relax, let the pup work the bird. Again, your toggle should be flipped to the flank collar. Once bird work is done, flip it back to the neck and send the dog on. The majority of the time the toggle will be on the neck...IMO

RickB wrote:The using the collar as a "command" is, when you get down to the brass tacks, no different than most force fetch programs.

Of course it is. The ear pinch (or toe hitch) pressure during FF does not arrive 'cold', at least not as done by the many top trainers I'm associated with. The pressure used is applied to support a known command, "Fetch". Teach, force, reinforce.

The process for formally training "Here" begins with a passive teaching of the command with no pressure, but rather enticement with treats. It's then enforced with a check cord or rope, and later as the pup matures e-collar conditioned to the known command "Here", which is later paired in the process with the whistle command multiple 'toots'. That is a conditioning process that is fair to the dog, and does not use up the collar for other applications.

EvanG

I personally have never understood the collar on the flank. For the dog's entire life, he will wear a collar on his neck. Why start him out with one on the flank, then move it to his neck to reinforce the same command it does on the flank? It's one of those things that makes absolutely no sense IF your dog is going to wear and ecollar in the field.

Nearly all of the top All-Age trainers have been using the flank collar (mostly around birds) for the last 15 years because it works. You all can argue the logic of it all you want, does not change their success.

I like the flank method, When applied via the smith method teaching points of contacts which have a purpose so when they are applied in the field it helps to keep the style in the dog.

EvanG wrote:Of course it is. The ear pinch (or toe hitch) pressure during FF does not arrive 'cold', at least not as done by the many top trainers I'm associated with. The pressure used is applied to support a known command, "Fetch". Teach, force, reinforce.

Evan:

I mean no disrespect, as you have forgotten more about training than I will ever know.

I have purchased your video and recipe. Watched and read each respectively.

While your recipe does indeed introduce a cue (fetch) early on in the training, it is unnecessary for the dog. It does not provide information. The force applied teaches the dog to make an association between the cue (fetch) and the behavior. If you eliminated the word fetch, you would be able to get the dog picking up the paint roller/bumper silently, because the dog does so in order to turn off the pain.

The good folks who use the silent training system have realized this and eliminate the cue. They eliminate the cue because, ulitmately, the bird is the cue of the behavior. They could mirror the force fetch system and introduce a cue early on, but they choose not to.

In the end, the dog learns that the behavior turns off the pain. The cue provides nothing to the dog early on, but is useful to us (the trainer) later on.

EvanG wrote: The process for formally training "Here" begins with a passive teaching of the command with no pressure, but rather enticement with treats. It's then enforced with a check cord or rope, and later as the pup matures e-collar conditioned to the known command "Here", which is later paired in the process with the whistle command multiple 'toots'. That is a conditioning process that is fair to the dog, and does not use up the collar for other applications.
EvanG

I think I may have missed your point with this.

EvanG wrote:

RickB wrote:The using the collar as a "command" is, when you get down to the brass tacks, no different than most force fetch programs.

Of course it is. The ear pinch (or toe hitch) pressure during FF does not arrive 'cold', at least not as done by the many top trainers I'm associated with. The pressure used is applied to support a known command, "Fetch". Teach, force, reinforce.

The process for formally training "Here" begins with a passive teaching of the command with no pressure, but rather enticement with treats. It's then enforced with a check cord or rope, and later as the pup matures e-collar conditioned to the known command "Here", which is later paired in the process with the whistle command multiple 'toots'. That is a conditioning process that is fair to the dog, and does not use up the collar for other applications.
fla
EvanG

Evan, are you assuming the flank method has no foundation stepping stones or preliminary queues and overlays? If so you are misinformed. The flank method I learned involved a lot of preliminary work prior to the overlay of the ecollar on the flank. Queue's come in a variety actions from body language, clickers, or flight of a bird. It does not need to be verbal with pointing dogs. It may not be the case with the retrievers.

Neil wrote:Nearly all of the top All-Age trainers have been using the flank collar (mostly around birds) for the last 15 years because it works. You all can argue the logic of it all you want, does not change their success.

I believe it works well for them because most of their dog's are not true electric dog's. The collar is used for whoa on the flank and here on the neck.

An electric dog learns all commands from the collar on the neck, from whoa and here through fetch, hold, and drop. All commands are REINFORCED by the collar on the neck.

Simply a difference in requirements and in methodology.

gonehuntin' wrote:

Neil wrote:Nearly all of the top All-Age trainers have been using the flank collar (mostly around birds) for the last 15 years because it works. You all can argue the logic of it all you want, does not change their success.

I believe it works well for them because most of their dog's are not true electric dog's. The collar is used for whoa on the flank and here on the neck.

An electric dog learns all commands from the collar on the neck, from whoa and here through fetch, hold, and drop. All commands are REINFORCED by the collar on the neck.

Simply a difference in requirements and in methodology.

I do not use the flank collar, never have and never will. The original Delmar whoa post has worked for me very well for a long time. I don;t fix what isn't broke. That said, I suspect you could go to a flank collar and simply eliminate the neck collar! I doubt that the dog would really know the difference.

Thanks all for the info on the flank collar, if I'm getting this right it's just a different positioning of the e-collar for a whoa command. DonF it's been along time since I've read a Delmar Smith training book... didn't he use a pinch collar from a whoa post? Did the pinch collar get replaced with a e-collar in this method?

RickB wrote:

EvanG wrote: The process for formally training "Here" begins with a passive teaching of the command with no pressure, but rather enticement with treats. It's then enforced with a check cord or rope, and later as the pup matures e-collar conditioned to the known command "Here", which is later paired in the process with the whistle command multiple 'toots'. That is a conditioning process that is fair to the dog, and does not use up the collar for other applications.

I think I may have missed your point with this.

Yes, respectfully, you did - by a country mile. Also your description of Evan's "system" as what you learned in college as negative reinforcement and a "cue" being unnecessary for fetch in a force-based program comes out of the 1960s, insofar as what retriever trainers have done in advancing e-collar use - and in advancing retriever and gundog training oh-so-light-year-ish beyond what you've put forward.

MG

EvanG wrote:[

That sounds like you're using the e-collar as a command, rather than as a tool to enforce commands. If that is the case you're minimizing the value of a dynamic tool. Stimulation without a command, voice or whistle, is what's called a "cold burn"; stimulus that provides no information. That is virtually opposite of what training provides.

EvanG[/quote]

Who said I was using the stimulation without a command? I was trying to give the op a a down and dirty of how the ecollar on the flank is used. Maybe if you familiarized yourself with some other methods like the silent command system you would understand. The entire system is built on steps and a very strong foundation of understanding before stimulation is ever used. One modification I made to the system is introducing a command day one! But I guess i'm doing the oposite of training, especially since I consistently end up with dogs like this so it must not be working.

or like this



or this

[That sounds like you're using the e-collar as a command, rather than as a tool to enforce commands.*]

I think this is exactly why they call their program the 'silent command system'.

Obviously, but this is why I personally teach the verbal command at the beginning. The responder stated that you are stimulating a dog with no information which is completely false. If you have done the work to set your foundation properly the dog has all the information required to respond appropriately which in this case is to stand. From day one I give give the whoa command before any pressure is applied. It usually only takes a few months and the command is so engrained the dog never wears an ecollar on their flank again. As previously stated before this is how most successful field trialers break dogs. My dogs come out flat footed broke with much more style than they ever did when I taught everything from the neck only. I don't knock those methods, they work I just prefer my method. Again my response was to answer the op's question, not a request for suggestions.

nevermind wrote:Thanks all for the info on the flank collar, if I'm getting this right it's just a different positioning of the e-collar for a whoa command. DonF it's been along time since I've read a Delmar Smith training book... didn't he use a pinch collar from a whoa post? Did the pinch collar get replaced with a e-collar in this method?

Yes he did. After a few dogs I eliminated the pinch collar. For me the second collar being another nylon or slip collar works well. Thing I didn't like about the pinch collar was it is much to bulky for me. Once I do have them stopping well on the post, before I take them off the post, I start using the e-collar.

Bottom line for the Flank collar is it is a cue to stand still ....SO when you go through the process you don't have to give a verbal command the dog feels the lightest level of stimulation it will RESPOND to ...Once the dog is doing this then you can put a verbal command to it...The idea here is when the Verbal command comes in the dog is doing what you want and then the command becomes part of the action should a command be needed....
All to many people feel the need to command a dog for doing something it is already doing. Worst one is a dog on point standing there and as the owner approaches they begin saying whoa whoa whoa whoa ..

Tejas wrote:Occasionally a dog will sit when stimulated on the neck. The use of a flank collar will usually eliminate the "sit" response.

I've seen that. One of my hunting partners was maybe a little rough on his dog with the e-collar correcting the dog not backing a point. His GWP now sits to back. It's not like we are field trialing and it works so its fine, but it is a bit odd looking.

codym wrote:Who said I was using the stimulation without a command? I was trying to give the op a a down and dirty of how the ecollar on the flank is used. Maybe if you familiarized yourself with some other methods like the silent command system you would understand. The entire system is built on steps and a very strong foundation of understanding before stimulation is ever used. One modification I made to the system is introducing a command day one! But I guess i'm doing the oposite of training, especially since I consistently end up with dogs like this so it must not be working.

You said so, or at least according to what information you offered in your post that is how it appeared. As much as anything I was offering clarity about how e-collar conditioning is properly used. But take another look at the quote and see if you pick up the meaning as I did.

EvanG wrote:

codym wrote:stim on the flank means stop, stim on the neck means come to me or find me.

That sounds like you're using the e-collar as a command, rather than as a tool to enforce commands. If that is the case you're minimizing the value of a dynamic tool. Stimulation without a command, voice or whistle, is what's called a "cold burn"; stimulus that provides no information. That is virtually opposite of what training provides.

EvanG

Are you inferring that you begin with vocal commands, blend with the collar, and then remove the vocal command? Or is there another meaning here? I've only been a pro for 36 years, but I'm still willing to learn something new. So far I'm not at all clear on your meaning.

EvanG

This dog (not the puppy) was "broke" with the flank collar! From when she was a little pup, before being released she was made to stand for just a second while she got a quick belly pinch, then released with a whistle blast. This was early teaching to stop/hold to the pinch and run at the whistle blast. In this video, she was pointing sage grouse, and the pup (carrying around a freshly found deer leg) never smelled the birds. I hit the whistle to release her for a relocate because I thought the puppy being that far out front would have flush any birds. But, I was wrong and you can see them flush in the distance when I spoke. Holly (broke dog) would not fit everyone's situation, but she is dead broke!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9VHO-3j4rus

Steve

No pro you assumed we were stimulating our dogs without commands. I gave the op the very basic use of the flank collar as I use it on a pointing dog to teach whoa ie stand, everything else is taught from the neck. I referred him to a program where the info is available and he can see how the program works step by step. Again and read this carefully I do not just strap an ecollar to the flank and start to stim and expect them to stand. There is months of whoa post work along with heel, here, taught with a check cord. The dog learns whoa on the whoa post then is transitioned slowly over to the collar on the flank. I gave him the basic use because I didn't feel like typing the step by step process that it takes to get a dog broke with the ecollar. The videos that the smiths put out are a much better guide than a post on a forum which is why I referred them to that program. I've trained dogs for 15 years, but I try not to critique other people's methods from a key board. I've apprenticed under some very good pros and I learned there's many ways to get something done. I've taken pieces from all of them and use what works for me. If your still unclear go buy the video and watch it, attend a seminar, and if you still feel that people that use it are doing the opposite of training then so be it. It doesn't change the fact that most of the dogs I trial against are trained using an ecollar around the flank at some point or other and they are very well trained, stylish dogs. Maybe I should have been more concise in my explanation, but the question was why do people use the ecollar on the flank and it's to teach the dog to stand, I didn't feel as though he was asking for a detailed program. So I apologize for not being as clear as maybe I should have been.

I've only been a pro for 36 years

That's pretty condescending.

The flank collar is a great tool when used correctly. I have started using it and will never go back. It's pretty difficult to explain in a few sentences on a message board, but that doesn't mean that it's invalid.

rinker wrote:

I've only been a pro for 36 years

That's pretty condescending.

You'll get over it. The rest of that statement is that I'm still willing to learn. Apparently you are not. I've said nothing about flank collar use being a non valid use. I've only questioned the conditioning process...not condemned it, but questioned it. That has been clarified.

EvanG

Double post

Seem's to me that the flank collar method is much more involved than Delmars original whoa post. I have run into several people in the NW that have not been able to make it work from the video. The original method was a breeze to learn and accomplished the same end.

rinker wrote:

I've only been a pro for 36 years

That's pretty condescending.

The flank collar is a great tool when used correctly. I have started using it and will never go back. It's pretty difficult to explain in a few sentences on a message board, but that doesn't mean that it's invalid.

Funny, I was reading and high-lighted those same words and wondered what they added to the post? Why I started using the flank was because I used a hitch around the flank when using the whoa post. The dog recognized stimulation in that area meant stop. Took a day to see the dogs pick up on it so I kept using it. I guess where I go wrong is trying to think what the dog is thinking and that may mean something different with every dog but they all seem to understand the meaning when you use the same area you do when you use the CC. Oh, I forgot, I have been an amateur for almost 60 years, though I did help put the kids through college with the help of a lot of dogs.

Apologies in advance, but when someone feels the need to flaunt their experienced in terms of number of years, I am reminded of the quip, "One year's experience 35 times".

My advice, if you think you need to intimidate this group, you have lost the debate.

a lot of big time trainers use this so it must work well. but I wouldn't know what to do when a young dog comes apart in the field and it dose happen.if all the whoa training was done on the dogs flank and your out hunting with the collar on the dogs neck if you have to whoa the dog and birds are flying a young dog can get pretty excited and he don't listen will he asc getting hit with the collar as whoa if he has never been trained with whoa on his neck. maybe I need to learn more about this

There is absolutely no disputing that the flank collar works, it's just that it involves an unnecessary step, at least for some of us. I don't tell anyone they should stop using it, it's just that there are many ways to accomplish the same thing. The way I've always looked at it is that once the dog enters advanced training, the collar will always be on his neck. He learns reinforcement of all commands through the neck and that includes whoa. So my thought has always been to just eliminate one step and teach whoa from the neck from the start. I don't ever want to give the dog a bad first impression of the ecollar by using it on the flank where it is so obvious then switching it to the neck. If you want to develop a collar wise dog, that would be the way to do it.

I know it works and I've used it in that way and in others on the flank, but years ago I gave it up as unnecessary. A collar on the flank is not new. Pro's have been using it that way for 40 years, but it has only become effective since advent of the variable intensity collar.

Part of the value of the flank collar is it is not necessary for the dog to always wear it, as they cannot in trials.

And I am not advocating people use a flank collar anymore than you are that they don't, just trying to answer the question.