Launcher Questions

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Gunner2292
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Launcher Questions

Post by Gunner2292 » Fri Feb 27, 2015 11:27 am

Hello all,

I'm relatively new to training, especially pointers, and I have a 12 month old GSP who has been doing very good in the field but I want to sharpen his pointing abilities. I have a launcher and access to pigeons so I have a few questions regarding it. Once the pigeon and launcher are hidden, and you are walking with your dog cross wind, do you set the launcher off immediately when you see that he scents the bird, or do you grab the check cord and whoa him first before you set the launcher off? Last summer I had pigeons and he managed to grab a couple because I didn't have a launcher, but this season when we were hunting he did well pointing birds (albeit it sometimes they were flighty enough to flush before he even recognized a scent). This spring I want to do it right. So as stated before do you work on trying to whoa him when the scent is caught or do you immediately set the launcher off? And is he eventually supposed to connect the movement he makes with the flushing of the bird prematurely and naturally learn to be steadier on point? Thanks for all your assistance folks, I really do appreciate it.

-Shae

aulrich
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Re: Launcher Questions

Post by aulrich » Fri Feb 27, 2015 12:45 pm

To paraphrase , you are looking to formalize steadiness in your dog. There are a number of ways to do that job and this is one of those spots where it is wise to find a system and follow it to the end, especially if you are new(ish).

I used Perfect Start/Perfect finish

Other systems that I know of

the book Training with Mo
Huntsmith silent command video
George Hickox Pointing dog Volume 1-4

All have upsides and down sides, but it safe to say they all work. The trick is to match the system to the training resources you have available.

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DonF
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Re: Launcher Questions

Post by DonF » Fri Feb 27, 2015 1:09 pm

Launcher's have a real value, they let you operate like on wild bird's without being on wild birds. You can work your dog cross wind on a check cord and when the dog shows it smells the bird, stop the dog. Advantage here of remote trap is that you don't need someone else to flush the bird while you hold the dog. On the other hand, what I do, is turn the pup loose and try to get it cross wind. Soon as it indicate's bird, pop the trap. Don't give the pup much chance at all to actually point. Won't be long before the pup will hit point before you can work the trap. Pup beats you, don't pop. Now at this point watch the pup closely, any movement at all and pop the bird. Pup glances at you by moving it's eye's only toward you, pop the bird. The idea is to teach the pup that it is his movement that cause's the bird to flush.

When you go to your pup, do not talk at all. If it flinch's, pop the bird and say nothing, just go to the next bird. If you can get in front of the pup, pop the bird a bit before you get to it. All that kicking brush does is tempt the dog, works well too but then your gonna have to stop a mistake that you made. You know what's gonna happen if your kicking around in from of the pup, don't do it, wild bird will not allow that from you and you want the pigeon your using to act like a wild bird, that is your job.

When you go to flush, don't come from behind and next to the dog, good chance you'll pull the pup with you, instead go around to the pup where you can keep an eye on the pup at all time's. You are looking for any sign of movement. You know where the bird is and where the wind is coming from, you do not need to see the bird to pop it and you do not need to see the bird come out of the trap. You do have to pay attention to the pup, do that. have fun with it. Like training with wild birds but better!
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Re: Launcher Questions

Post by KCBrittfan » Fri Feb 27, 2015 1:27 pm

I'm glad to hear he has some positive bird experiences before you get the launcher involved. Things occasionally go wrong with even the most well thought out training sessions. The more good times with a bird the dog has to fall back on, the less the damage a mishap will cause. First know your equipment thoroughly and practice with it when the dog is not around. Then I would try to acclimate the dog to the sound of the launcher before I ever put a bird in it.

Now on to using the launcher with a bird; I prefer to: keep my mouth shut (no "whoa" when he catches scent), launch the bird the moment he gets too close (whether or not he smelled it), if he stops I launch the bird the moment he starts to move again (again keeping my mouth shut.) The idea is for the bird to do the teaching. The better you can make the launcher bird act like a wild bird the faster the dog will learn he can't catch birds.

I do like to have the dog whoa broke prior to doing any of this. Remember the word "whoa" only means to stop and stand still -- no more, no less. It has nothing to do with birds. Eventually I use the whoa training to take the chase (i.e. following flushed birds) out of the dog. When to do that depends on the dog, what goals/uses you intend for him, personal preferences about controlling the dog, when bird season start, etc.

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Re: Launcher Questions

Post by KCBrittfan » Fri Feb 27, 2015 1:31 pm

I must have been typing while Don posted. Sorry for any redundancy. He explains it much better that I did anyway.

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Gunner2292
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Re: Launcher Questions

Post by Gunner2292 » Fri Feb 27, 2015 1:37 pm

They were both excellent well said replies thank you! The only issue this year was the grouse we were hunting were in the cheyenne River breaks so it was pretty open country and they were pretty spooky. They would often flush before he would catch scent, but I feel like there were quite a few birds he definitely could have pointed but chose not to. He did good pointing pheasant if they stayed put long enough though.

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Re: Launcher Questions

Post by deseeker » Fri Feb 27, 2015 1:48 pm

DonF wrote:Launcher's have a real value, they let you operate like on wild bird's without being on wild birds. You can work your dog cross wind on a check cord and when the dog shows it smells the bird, stop the dog. Advantage here of remote trap is that you don't need someone else to flush the bird while you hold the dog. On the other hand, what I do, is turn the pup loose and try to get it cross wind. Soon as it indicate's bird, pop the trap. Don't give the pup much chance at all to actually point. Won't be long before the pup will hit point before you can work the trap. Pup beats you, don't pop. Now at this point watch the pup closely, any movement at all and pop the bird. Pup glances at you by moving it's eye's only toward you, pop the bird. The idea is to teach the pup that it is his movement that cause's the bird to flush.

When you go to your pup, do not talk at all. If it flinch's, pop the bird and say nothing, just go to the next bird. If you can get in front of the pup, pop the bird a bit before you get to it. All that kicking brush does is tempt the dog, works well too but then your gonna have to stop a mistake that you made. You know what's gonna happen if your kicking around in from of the pup, don't do it, wild bird will not allow that from you and you want the pigeon your using to act like a wild bird, that is your job.

When you go to flush, don't come from behind and next to the dog, good chance you'll pull the pup with you, instead go around to the pup where you can keep an eye on the pup at all time's. You are looking for any sign of movement. You know where the bird is and where the wind is coming from, you do not need to see the bird to pop it and you do not need to see the bird come out of the trap. You do have to pay attention to the pup, do that. have fun with it. Like training with wild birds but better!
X2

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Re: Launcher Questions

Post by cjhills » Fri Feb 27, 2015 3:48 pm

Not wanting to Hijack the thread but how do you keep the pup from tracking you to the launcher.....................Cj

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Re: Launcher Questions

Post by aulrich » Fri Feb 27, 2015 4:03 pm

Lots of it is how you approach the plant site, the best is have a friend do it. But I like to loop wide then swing down wind then back track and repeat for the next launcher.

Sometimes they cut your track , I just recalled and start off a new direction if they start following , at any point they get too close to the launcher pop the bird.

Watch the amount of flagging tape you use to mark the plant site, dogs seem to get flag wise pretty quick, one of the better options I have seem are orange clothes pins

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Re: Launcher Questions

Post by BellaSpinone » Sat Feb 28, 2015 6:06 am

Perfect Start does a good job of demonstrating using launchers with plenty of examples.

Dan

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tailcrackin
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Re: Launcher Questions

Post by tailcrackin » Sat Feb 28, 2015 9:17 am

Shae, in my opinion, launchers are to help a dog, that are/could be making mistakes with birds. You read up a little, on different methods, and find one that makes sense to you. Reason I say it this way, is for the dog........if your teaching doesn't make sense to you, it wont to do the dog either.
Without seeing the dog, it sort of sounds like its not for sure how to do things. That's why its actions aren't consistent.
Most times, if your fair to the dog, it will be fair with you. If your start helping it learn to stand still, that will help calm the dogs anxiety. If you are calm, and confident, the dog will learn to be that also. When you help him cool his jets, and calm itself a little, you will help it learn to think.......think with you, and for you. That's the start of you two becoming one. the dog is learning what you want, and are wishing for!! Lol Hopefully!! :lol:
Don's explaining is pretty good, don't get to trigger happy at first. The dog is learning what it can/cant get away with. A dogs body movement, will cause the flush. The biggest thing is to hang onto the check cord and don't allow a crazy amount of chase. Does this make sense? You are changing the dogs rules by eliminating the chase. You are also allowing the dog to learn how to conduct him/herself, in public. As the training goes on, the dog will slowly start attempting to back off, on the chase. Before you know it, you have the dogs full attention. Reason why, is threw its learning experience, its tried to explore the other options. They didn't happen. So, the dog learns that if I stand here, and let Dad do his job, and help me with my job........it will all be fun, and exciting. The standing will grow, its pointing manners, will grow, and its calmness with things going on, will grow. You are building a foundation with the dog, and it doesn't even know it.......because you are being fair to it.
There's few things to add on standing and stuff, but I don't wanna loose your attention. Hope this helps, Thanks Jonesy
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Re: Launcher Questions

Post by DonF » Sat Feb 28, 2015 10:22 am

cjhills wrote:Not wanting to Hijack the thread but how do you keep the pup from tracking you to the launcher.....................Cj
I've been using remote and manual launcher's for some 30 yrs. My old Lefty would look for small red flags and go to them. I marked traps in big fields with them. Squirt did the same thing, he can spot them from across town. Stormy does follow my scent to the trap! First dog to ever do that to me! So I go wide around the edges to plant birds and release him where he's not close to it. Also worked pretty well to make him go last. Squirt and Bodie think that's a great idea. To many trails by the time I get to Stormy!

When I had quail, I simply threw them out and let them land were they may, best method I've used. You could do the same with a pigeon just card it. Problem for me then is, I have to get the card off for the bird to fly home. I believe in pigeon's because the do fly away! Hands down the best so far has been tossing quail but, first I teach the dog to point and hold!
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Re: Launcher Questions

Post by tailcrackin » Sat Feb 28, 2015 10:33 am

Hey Don, I use blaze orange yarn, dogs are color blind, and its small, but useful. Thanks Jonesy
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Re: Launcher Questions

Post by DonF » Sat Feb 28, 2015 11:44 am

tailcrackin wrote:Hey Don, I use blaze orange yarn, dogs are color blind, and its small, but useful. Thanks Jonesy
So I'm told, might be the movement, don't know. Used the yarn on Lefty but my eye's aren't good enough for that anymore. Turned Lefty or Squirt loose and it was like the yarn or tape was a homing beacon!
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Re: Launcher Questions

Post by Brazosvalleyvizslas » Sat Feb 28, 2015 1:02 pm

Dogs are not color blind. They see more than black and white. Therefore, a blaze orange marker will stand out like a sore thumb when mixed among greens and browns.

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Re: Launcher Questions

Post by tailcrackin » Sat Feb 28, 2015 1:19 pm

If you are free running, I can understand the speed bump. But, if the dog has shown you that it totally understands what's happening and why.....by its actions. You should have advanced them on to loose birds. If the dog is standing everything well, and you have allowed some of the giving its legs back.
(Meaning, that you are still walking dog out, and you are getting into the area of where the birds at, dropping the cord, and allowing the dog to find/prove to you, that is on same page as you......with the find, and its actions. The distances change an can grow, but doesn't grow to much, that you cant see what/how things are going.) This is a rule change, you are allowing the dog to show you its understanding of your teaching.
Once you start and get into this level of work, and the dog shows that it keeps its thoughts threw that, "rule change" Advance it to loose birds, but step back to help the dog be successful and keep its head threw the next style of work. A lot of times we can get nervous on the non advancement......it can turn into a can of worms. The dog will start playing and doing stuff it wouldn't usually do....creeping in on launchers, flagging, all kinds of wild stuff might happen.... .but.... if the dog isn't ready for it, it can also turn into a can of worms. You have to adjust accordingly to what the dog says, and trust your gut. Everything with a dog happens for a reason, most wont sit back and think about what's causing it to happen. If the foundation is complete, the rest of the teaching flows together. A kid cant drive, if they don't have an opportunity to get behind the wheel, and feel things for themselves. Hope this helps Don, Thanks Jonesy
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tailcrackin
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Re: Launcher Questions

Post by tailcrackin » Sat Feb 28, 2015 1:29 pm

Ask Evan, why the retriever guys, use black/white for marks, and the start of handling drills and don't use/start with orange then? They want the dogs to be able to use the eyes.....the young or started dog learning how to build their eyes, and trust of the teacher. A dog cant see orange at a distance, they can smell the bumper, but not see it. That's also why retriever trainers, will mark where the blind is with small blaze orange ribbon on tree limb. We can see where its at, but the dog cant. They don't see orange, until their nose works, and they are right on top of it. Thanks Jonesy
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Brazosvalleyvizslas
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Re: Launcher Questions

Post by Brazosvalleyvizslas » Sat Feb 28, 2015 1:37 pm

They see yellows blues and white best. Orange will most likely be yellow but it still stands out. NO THEY ARE NOT COLOR BLIND. Sorry to burst your bubble but do some research.

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tailcrackin
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Re: Launcher Questions

Post by tailcrackin » Sat Feb 28, 2015 2:01 pm

Man, you aren't bursting my bubble. I can compare posts, and the start dates, for each of us, to the forum. You started 2012, and have 1196, I started 2005 and, I have 389. I guess my computer time, and yours, is a little different. Gosh, I hate snow days, and remember now, exactly why, I stayed away from this board, and tried to help out, publicly. Hopefully Evan G, or Gonehuntin will chime in. They are two retriever trainers, Gone is now, retired. Maybe you can argue with them on a dogs color seeing. Lol, Shae, I'd be happy, to talk private if you want. You all have fun, thanks Jonesy
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Re: Launcher Questions

Post by Meller » Sat Feb 28, 2015 2:43 pm

At the risk of being beheaded, from the research that I read that dogs do see in some color such as yellow and blue and some purples, but cannot tell red and green, so your probably argueing the same point; my opinion being that the orange would appear more red than yellow and the dog could not distinguish between the orange and green; Thus is why the retriever trainers use black and white bumpers. But if there is movement that catches a dogs eye it isn't going to make any difference anyway. :)

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Re: Launcher Questions

Post by AZ Brittany Guy » Sat Feb 28, 2015 3:05 pm

aulrich wrote:Lots of it is how you approach the plant site, the best is have a friend do it. But I like to loop wide then swing down wind then back track and repeat for the next launcher.

Sometimes they cut your track , I just recalled and start off a new direction if they start following , at any point they get too close to the launcher pop the bird.

Watch the amount of flagging tape you use to mark the plant site, dogs seem to get flag wise pretty quick, one of the better options I have seem are orange clothes pins
I stake out my dogs then hop on my quad and make a big circle and plant my launchers by coming in the back side of the field.

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Gunner2292
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Re: Launcher Questions

Post by Gunner2292 » Sat Feb 28, 2015 8:13 pm

Thanks for all the great responses everyone! I guess i dont see the relevance in arguing color blindness. Everyone has different methods and im sure just as many dogs were properly trained using blaze orange to mark a launcher as were the number of dogs and trainers who didnt.

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Re: Launcher Questions

Post by aulrich » Mon Mar 02, 2015 10:04 am

As close as we have been able to figure out, It's more the flapping , rather than the color. That is why some folk use clothes pins, no flapping , for myself I just use as little tape as possible.

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