FF "Hold and Drop"

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scsims
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FF "Hold and Drop"

Post by scsims » Mon Feb 09, 2015 6:38 pm

I'm using "Smart Fetch" and I've been working with my dog for about a week now. We usually do about 4, 10 minute sessions a day.

I wondering if I'm doing something wrong or if this is normal. He is improving but at a snails pace. I've gotten him to where he will hold the roller without me holding it in his mouth, and he is starting to drop on command as well. He still will not open his mouth to except the roller, I have to use my fingers to work it in. I thought I would go a little quicker than this because he has caught on quick to everything else.

What do you guys think?

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Re: FF

Post by RoostersMom » Mon Feb 09, 2015 8:21 pm

Keep using the method. It will eventually click for him. Our chessie took quite a bit of time before he actually started reaching for the roller. I just used more pressure and eventually found the right combination.

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FF "Hold and Drop"

Post by Gooseman07 » Tue Feb 10, 2015 5:35 am

I just worked the 'Hold' portion with Fetch as my command for almost 5 weeks. My dog never opened his mouth for the object. That's what the next step is for but don't force the issue and make sure he's solid on holding everything and everything before you move on.

You need to keep it black and white for the dog or they will get confused. Good luck!
Last edited by Gooseman07 on Thu Feb 12, 2015 4:27 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: FF

Post by gonehuntin' » Tue Feb 10, 2015 4:27 pm

What are you doing to get him to open his mouth?
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Re: FF

Post by polmaise » Tue Feb 10, 2015 5:21 pm

scsims wrote:I'm using "Smart Fetch" and I've been working with my dog for about a week now. We usually do about 4, 10 minute sessions a day.

I wondering if I'm doing something wrong or if this is normal. He is improving but at a snails pace. I've gotten him to where he will hold the roller without me holding it in his mouth, and he is starting to drop on command as well. He still will not open his mouth to except the roller, I have to use my fingers to work it in. I thought I would go a little quicker than this because he has caught on quick to everything else.

What do you guys think?
I never used the 'program' so I can't comment on it! ..
I can get the dog to 'want' though ?...Rather than 'give' .
Last edited by polmaise on Wed Feb 11, 2015 2:13 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: FF

Post by EvanG » Tue Feb 10, 2015 5:44 pm

scsims wrote:I'm using "Smart Fetch" and I've been working with my dog for about a week now. We usually do about 4, 10 minute sessions a day.

I wondering if I'm doing something wrong or if this is normal. He is improving but at a snails pace. I've gotten him to where he will hold the roller without me holding it in his mouth, and he is starting to drop on command as well. He still will not open his mouth to except the roller, I have to use my fingers to work it in. I thought I would go a little quicker than this because he has caught on quick to everything else.

What do you guys think?
Too many sessions. Nearly any dog will get bored with all that dry work. 2-3 sessions at most, and closer to 5 minutes will probably be better. Can you post some video of a session?

EvanG
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FF "Hold and Drop"

Post by scsims » Tue Feb 10, 2015 7:38 pm

gonehuntin' wrote:What are you doing to get him to open his mouth?
I just kind of work my fingers in the corners of his mouth, he opens pretty easy.

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FF "Hold and Drop"

Post by scsims » Tue Feb 10, 2015 7:39 pm

EvanG wrote:
scsims wrote:I'm using "Smart Fetch" and I've been working with my dog for about a week now. We usually do about 4, 10 minute sessions a day.

I wondering if I'm doing something wrong or if this is normal. He is improving but at a snails pace. I've gotten him to where he will hold the roller without me holding it in his mouth, and he is starting to drop on command as well. He still will not open his mouth to except the roller, I have to use my fingers to work it in. I thought I would go a little quicker than this because he has caught on quick to everything else.

What do you guys think?
Too many sessions. Nearly any dog will get bored with all that dry work. 2-3 sessions at most, and closer to 5 minutes will probably be better. Can you post some video of a session?



Thanks

EvanG

Sure I will tomorrow, thanks.

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Re: FF

Post by gonehuntin' » Tue Feb 10, 2015 8:19 pm

That's your problem. He needs to open his mouth from pressure. Now he thinks, " here comes that jerk to stuff the buck in my mouth. Why should I?" Instead of forcing the bumper in, pinch the upper jowls against the big canine teeth and command fetch. He WILL open. Then put the bumper in and command HOLD. You know he understands when you touch his muzzle and he opens his mouth automatically, or whines and opens it. From there you can go to the ear and he'll understand the pressure.
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Re: FF

Post by mnaj_springer » Tue Feb 10, 2015 9:13 pm

It seems different forms of force (ear pinch, toe hitch, jowl pinch, etc.) affect different dogs with varying intensity. Keep that in mind... But DO NOT switch frequently. Pick the best one and stick with it.

Polmaise, did the dog in that video go through a FF program? Do you usually allow a dog to snap at the bumper?
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Re: FF

Post by gundogguy » Wed Feb 11, 2015 4:53 am

scsims wrote:I'm using "Smart Fetch" and I've been working with my dog for about a week now. We usually do about 4, 10 minute sessions a day.

I wondering if I'm doing something wrong or if this is normal. He is improving but at a snails pace.
I've gotten him to where he will hold the roller without me holding it in his mouth, and he is starting to drop on command as well. He still will not open his mouth to except the roller, I have to use my fingers to work it in. I thought I would go a little quicker than this because he has caught on quick to everything else.

What do you guys think?
Most just do not realize how long it takes. Reason most do not attempt is because it is not entertaining and can be about as exciting as watching paint dry and grass grow. But a strong sequential process will deliver a finished product.
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Re: FF

Post by polmaise » Wed Feb 11, 2015 5:02 am

mnaj_springer wrote: Polmaise, did the dog in that video go through a FF program? Do you usually allow a dog to snap at the bumper?
No it went through a Force Hold process.

mnaj_springer wrote: Polmaise, did the dog in that video go through a FF program? Do you usually allow a dog to snap at the bumper?
With this one Yes.

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FF "Hold and Drop"

Post by Gooseman07 » Wed Feb 11, 2015 5:27 am

gonehuntin' wrote:That's your problem. He needs to open his mouth from pressure. Now he thinks, " here comes that jerk to stuff the buck in my mouth. Why should I?" Instead of forcing the bumper in, pinch the upper jowls against the big canine teeth and command fetch. He WILL open. Then put the bumper in and command HOLD. You know he understands when you touch his muzzle and he opens his mouth automatically, or whines and opens it. From there you can go to the ear and he'll understand the pressure.
I'm wondering why you want to command HOLD? Then you have to command HOLD all the time. FETCH should mean HOLD, the dog shouldn't drop anything if told to FETCH! Just like SIT should mean STAY, the dog shouldn't move until told otherwise.

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Re: FF

Post by polmaise » Wed Feb 11, 2015 7:13 am

Gooseman07 wrote: I'm wondering why you want to command HOLD? Then you have to command HOLD all the time. FETCH should mean HOLD, the dog shouldn't drop anything if told to FETCH! Just like SIT should mean STAY, the dog shouldn't move until told otherwise.
It would be nice to think they were all the same and on the same page

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FF "Hold and Drop"

Post by scsims » Wed Feb 11, 2015 9:07 am

Video from this mornings session. I think he's improving. Still gets squirmy.

If I'm correct, I don't think the smart fetch method has you use force until your done with walking hold and on to "fetch".

https://vimeo.com/119344308

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Re: FF

Post by Ouzel » Wed Feb 11, 2015 10:55 am

Looks to me like you're doing a great job! Nice dog BTW.

As an aside (to the experts): help me understand why one teaches hold command BEFORE the fetch command. "Fetch" is the command normally used to get the dog to open its mouth and take the dummy so it can't even begin to "hold" the dummy unless it first opens its mouth. Therefore you might as well be saying "fetch" as you force the mouth open to put in the dummy. Once the dummy is in the mouth you might then say "hold" if you want to say something, but I don't really see the need because, if the dog spits it out, then it just gets another fetch command and some more pressure. It quickly learns that holding is a better option so the command "hold" is redundant IMO.

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Re: FF

Post by EvanG » Wed Feb 11, 2015 1:20 pm

You're doing a nice job, especially with your mechanics. The atmosphere appears a little "dry"; not relaxed and upbeat enough. My favorite 'Rex-ism' is "Leave something in it for the dog." What does he have to look forward to in each session. It has to be more than you stuffing a roller in his mouth for a while. Know what I mean?

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Re: FF

Post by polmaise » Wed Feb 11, 2015 2:44 pm

Ouzel wrote:Looks to me like you're doing a great job! Nice dog BTW.

As an aside (to the experts): help me understand why one teaches hold command BEFORE the fetch command. "Fetch" is the command normally used to get the dog to open its mouth and take the dummy so it can't even begin to "hold" the dummy unless it first opens its mouth. Therefore you might as well be saying "fetch" as you force the mouth open to put in the dummy. Once the dummy is in the mouth you might then say "hold" if you want to say something, but I don't really see the need because, if the dog spits it out, then it just gets another fetch command and some more pressure. It quickly learns that holding is a better option so the command "hold" is redundant IMO.
I often use 'Bananas' as a command! ..Just to be different :roll:

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Re: FF

Post by gonehuntin' » Wed Feb 11, 2015 6:19 pm

Here are my observations: Get the dog off the floor and he'll be easier to control. I put a one foot wide piece of 3/4" plywood between two chair and stand him on it. This keeps him a little off balance and doesn't let him squirrel around.

I teach fetch and hold at the same time. You are putting the bumper in his mouth without applying pressure. I pince the jowls on the canines, command "fetch", then comes the hold command. When he understands this the ear pinch will come easier.

When he is holding, keep his head looking UP into your eyes. He can't spit out the bumper then.

Don't let him jerk his head around and lower it. That is defying you. Make him stand and look UP at you.

Don't let him drop the bumper into your hand. Take the bumper, then command drop. He then learns he can never spit out the bird until YOU have a hold on it. It also proofs the dog on the hold. Many dog's spit the bird as soon as they feel you touch it. This way they hold it until commanded to drop. You then teach them to open their mouth, back their head away from the bird, and turn the head to the side to release it.

You have a nice calm demeanor with the dog. I like that and it's "bleep" fine training.
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Re: FF

Post by gonehuntin' » Wed Feb 11, 2015 6:21 pm

Gooseman07 wrote:
gonehuntin' wrote:That's your problem. He needs to open his mouth from pressure. Now he thinks, " here comes that jerk to stuff the buck in my mouth. Why should I?" Instead of forcing the bumper in, pinch the upper jowls against the big canine teeth and command fetch. He WILL open. Then put the bumper in and command HOLD. You know he understands when you touch his muzzle and he opens his mouth automatically, or whines and opens it. From there you can go to the ear and he'll understand the pressure.
I'm wondering why you want to command HOLD? Then you have to command HOLD all the time. FETCH should mean HOLD, the dog shouldn't drop anything if told to FETCH! Just like SIT should mean STAY, the dog shouldn't move until told otherwise.
HOLD controls the jaws as does DROP.

FETCH is a command that demands motion and has nothing to do with motion of the jaws.

They are three very distinct and different commands.
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Re: FF

Post by gonehuntin' » Wed Feb 11, 2015 6:23 pm

Ouzel wrote:Looks to me like you're doing a great job! Nice dog BTW.

As an aside (to the experts): help me understand why one teaches hold command BEFORE the fetch command. "Fetch" is the command normally used to get the dog to open its mouth and take the dummy so it can't even begin to "hold" the dummy unless it first opens its mouth. Therefore you might as well be saying "fetch" as you force the mouth open to put in the dummy. Once the dummy is in the mouth you might then say "hold" if you want to say something, but I don't really see the need because, if the dog spits it out, then it just gets another fetch command and some more pressure. It quickly learns that holding is a better option so the command "hold" is redundant IMO.
Actuall, they are taught simutaneously. The fetch command with jowl pinch conditions the dog to pressure and gets him used to opening his jaws through pressure. Then Hold is taught. They are taught together, not separate. Makes the ear pinch easier later.
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Re: FF

Post by Swampbilly » Thu Feb 12, 2015 12:14 am

Scsims-
Agree with the others.
Nice job 8)
Great sense of timing!
You LET the dog HOLD for longer than .0005 seconds congratulations!
You'd be surprised as to how many folks are taking the object before the dog ever gets a steady hold on it, and some are so nervous they fly right through the process.
'Nuther thing I'd like to compliment you on as well, is the fact that your praise is well timed-
You're not praising the dog,..you're praising the behavior..there's a big difference!
Again-
Good job, and always keep in mind some of that Rex-o-logy that Evan mentioned .

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FF "Hold and Drop"

Post by Gooseman07 » Thu Feb 12, 2015 6:08 am

gonehuntin' wrote:
Gooseman07 wrote:
gonehuntin' wrote:That's your problem. He needs to open his mouth from pressure. Now he thinks, " here comes that jerk to stuff the buck in my mouth. Why should I?" Instead of forcing the bumper in, pinch the upper jowls against the big canine teeth and command fetch. He WILL open. Then put the bumper in and command HOLD. You know he understands when you touch his muzzle and he opens his mouth automatically, or whines and opens it. From there you can go to the ear and he'll understand the pressure.
I'm wondering why you want to command HOLD? Then you have to command HOLD all the time. FETCH should mean HOLD, the dog shouldn't drop anything if told to FETCH! Just like SIT should mean STAY, the dog shouldn't move until told otherwise.
HOLD controls the jaws as does DROP.

FETCH is a command that demands motion and has nothing to do with motion of the jaws.

They are three very distinct and different commands.
I guess all I'm saying is, I don't want to have an extra command while hunting or testing. When I say Fetch, I mean, don't drop it until you get here to me. There are more than one way to skin a cat. As long as you're getting the results you want, go for it. I won't do it that way.

Scsims- I couldn't hear the video but I would recommend building a training table or something to get the dog off the ground. It makes them a little more uncomfortable and easier on your back and after time, more willing to work because you are there helping them through it. If you're praising a lot, good job! There are many folks that hardly give the dog a good boy throughout a session.

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Re: FF

Post by EvanG » Thu Feb 12, 2015 12:46 pm

Gooseman07 wrote:I guess all I'm saying is, I don't want to have an extra command while hunting or testing.
If you are willing to learn and perform force fetch correctly you will give only one command that encompasses all aspects of "fetch". But FF is not just one thing. "Hold" means just that; hold what you have in your mouth until commanded to release it (I use "drop"). Fetch means reach out or down and pick up what you have been commanded to (the nucleus of momentum). But in a complete modern system those things are also tied together with fundamental obedience commands to finish the retrieve. As all these are melded together their use is minimized in the fewest functional commands.
Gooseman07 wrote:When I say Fetch, I mean, don't drop it until you get here to me. There are more than one way to skin a cat. As long as you're getting the results you want, go for it. I won't do it that way.
That is what 'fetch' means when it's finished. But, as sound fundamental trainers, we don't require the finished product from a beginning dog. We teach the entire process in simplest form, one command at a time.

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FF "Hold and Drop"

Post by Gooseman07 » Thu Feb 12, 2015 1:15 pm

EvanG wrote:
Gooseman07 wrote:I guess all I'm saying is, I don't want to have an extra command while hunting or testing.
If you are willing to learn and perform force fetch correctly you will give only one command that encompasses all aspects of "fetch". But FF is not just one thing. "Hold" means just that; hold what you have in your mouth until commanded to release it (I use "drop"). Fetch means reach out or down and pick up what you have been commanded to (the nucleus of momentum). But in a complete modern system those things are also tied together with fundamental obedience commands to finish the retrieve. As all these are melded together their use is minimized in the fewest functional commands.
Gooseman07 wrote:When I say Fetch, I mean, don't drop it until you get here to me. There are more than one way to skin a cat. As long as you're getting the results you want, go for it. I won't do it that way.
That is what 'fetch' means when it's finished. But, as sound fundamental trainers, we don't require the finished product from a beginning dog. We teach the entire process in simplest form, one command at a time.

EvanG
So are you agreeing with me Evan?

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Re: FF

Post by polmaise » Thu Feb 12, 2015 1:34 pm

Gooseman07 wrote: I guess all I'm saying is, I don't want to have an extra command while hunting or testing. When I say Fetch, I mean, don't drop it until you get here to me. There are more than one way to skin a cat. As long as you're getting the results you want, go for it. I won't do it that way.
That may be what you want and have when the dog understands the process and linked with the one word command.
Now , 'Pray tell me' ? ..how your puppy understood the one word command 'Fetch' the first time you said that word from your lips with your hands in your pockets and you standing there like some statue?....
On a more serious note : ?...What did/have you done if you get one that doesn't understand your 'magical word' Fetch, and doesn't go get it and doesn't get hold of it ,and doesn't bring it back ?..Or 'god forbid' ..run away with it or chew it /play with it , toss it , or even drop it at your feet?...I could go on ! ..But I look forward to your reply :roll:
ps. If Evan agree's with you I'm outa here :wink: (He may well be happy with that) :lol:

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FF "Hold and Drop"

Post by Gooseman07 » Thu Feb 12, 2015 2:27 pm

polmaise wrote:
Gooseman07 wrote: I guess all I'm saying is, I don't want to have an extra command while hunting or testing. When I say Fetch, I mean, don't drop it until you get here to me. There are more than one way to skin a cat. As long as you're getting the results you want, go for it. I won't do it that way.
That may be what you want and have when the dog understands the process and linked with the one word command.
Now , 'Pray tell me' ? ..how your puppy understood the one word command 'Fetch' the first time you said that word from your lips with your hands in your pockets and you standing there like some statue?....
On a more serious note : ?...What did/have you done if you get one that doesn't understand your 'magical word' Fetch, and doesn't go get it and doesn't get hold of it ,and doesn't bring it back ?..Or 'god forbid' ..run away with it or chew it /play with it , toss it , or even drop it at your feet?...I could go on ! ..But I look forward to your reply :roll:
ps. If Evan agree's with you I'm outa here :wink: (He may well be happy with that) :lol:
First, I don't teach 'Fetch' until we are on the table. He gets many repetitions of:
1. 'Fetch', I open his mouth and put the object in. If he drops it, 'Fetch', open and put the object back in.
2. When he holds the object by himself, he gets told 'drop'. If he doesn't drop, I hold the object and move his mouth off the object. After about 2-3 weeks of this with different objects, we start moving on and off and around the table. If he drops, back to step 1 wherever he is, ground, table, ramp.
3. After he holds and moves with everything and anything with only the 'Fetch' command, we move on to ear pinch to cause the dog to open his mouth and then an object he has to work for gets put in his mouth.

Up until the time FF begins, I play what I call fun bumpers. There isn't any 'formal' sit stay don't move anything with them. I say their name before I release their collar. Before even playing fun bumpers, his recall needs to be stellar for a puppy. That was taught by going away to come back. Google it if you don't understand that form of teaching. If the dog isn't having a blast retrieving and bringing me the bumper, we stop. Most times, I stop with retrieves before the dog has a chance to get bored and take and work for himself or chew on or whatever.

There needs to be enough to stimulate the dog but not too much to create boredom which turns into chewing and running away. If a dog has energy and is excited to be with you. It won't happen the first 2-3 times you throw a bumper, I've never had it happen anyway but once you've spent a half hour throwing bumpers, it's more likely to happen.

I was just trying to help the OP. I didn't mean to unintentionally create an argument.

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Re: FF

Post by polmaise » Thu Feb 12, 2015 2:40 pm

Gooseman07 wrote:
polmaise wrote:
Gooseman07 wrote: I guess all I'm saying is, I don't want to have an extra command while hunting or testing. When I say Fetch, I mean, don't drop it until you get here to me. There are more than one way to skin a cat. As long as you're getting the results you want, go for it. I won't do it that way.
That may be what you want and have when the dog understands the process and linked with the one word command.
Now , 'Pray tell me' ? ..how your puppy understood the one word command 'Fetch' the first time you said that word from your lips with your hands in your pockets and you standing there like some statue?....
On a more serious note : ?...What did/have you done if you get one that doesn't understand your 'magical word' Fetch, and doesn't go get it and doesn't get hold of it ,and doesn't bring it back ?..Or 'god forbid' ..run away with it or chew it /play with it , toss it , or even drop it at your feet?...I could go on ! ..But I look forward to your reply :roll:
ps. If Evan agree's with you I'm outa here :wink: (He may well be happy with that) :lol:
First, I don't teach 'Fetch' until we are on the table. He gets many repetitions of:
1. 'Fetch', I open his mouth and put the object in. If he drops it, 'Fetch', open and put the object back in.
2. When he holds the object by himself, he gets told 'drop'. If he doesn't drop, I hold the object and move his mouth off the object. After about 2-3 weeks of this with different objects, we start moving on and off and around the table. If he drops, back to step 1 wherever he is, ground, table, ramp.
3. After he holds and moves with everything and anything with only the 'Fetch' command, we move on to ear pinch to cause the dog to open his mouth and then an object he has to work for gets put in his mouth.
I was just trying to help the OP. I didn't mean to unintentionally create an argument.
That sounds like a 'Process' :wink: ..Rather than a word command and 'No other' !?.Step 2 There is another command ''drop'' ?
You may be intentionally trying to help the OP by confusing them?..That is why a 'sequential process' is necessary for the OP ,with the addition of ''What if each step doesn't work'' . ..That requires first hand stuff with the dog in front of you (imo) .

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Re: FF

Post by gonehuntin' » Thu Feb 12, 2015 3:19 pm

Gooseman07 wrote: I was just trying to help the OP. I didn't mean to unintentionally create an argument.
Problem is, in trying to help him, you contradict the program he is following. FF has always had three components, the Fetch, the Hold, the Drop. When you work with problem dogs, each one of these commands is a valuable part of the cure. Eliminate one of the commands and the process is demeaned.
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Re: FF

Post by polmaise » Thu Feb 12, 2015 4:01 pm

Gooseman07 wrote: 3. After he holds and moves with everything and anything with only the 'Fetch' command, we move on to ear pinch to cause the dog to open his mouth and then an object he has to work for gets put in his mouth.
I didn't mean to unintentionally create an argument.
I am taking 'Issue' with this statement further! Not for argument, but for debate .If not from the poster then perhaps my learned friends can help me understand ?
'Ear pinch to cause a dog to open a mouth' ?...
Ear pinch is pressure Not pain in my book. If you don't understand 'pressure' then the modern collar programmes are not for you!
Y'all want another look at Rex and Farmer! Listen rather than look at you tube clips by some snake oil salesman.

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FF "Hold and Drop"

Post by Gooseman07 » Thu Feb 12, 2015 4:32 pm

I thought we were originally talking about the 'Hold' command? I never said it wasn't a process. Isn't that what dog training is? Everything builds on the last training session or darn close?

I have never seen the SmartFetch DVD but it sounds to me like a process as well. I really just asked why an extra command was used and taught to the dog. It seems as though it all gets tied together according to Evan but I just wanted to know, why bother when you get the dog to respond to one command, 'Fetch'

I apologize if I caused confusion to the OP. I was just wondering why this was what this guy was telling the OP.
Gooseman07 wrote:
gonehuntin' wrote:That's your problem. He needs to open his mouth from pressure. Now he thinks, " here comes that jerk to stuff the buck in my mouth. Why should I?" Instead of forcing the bumper in, pinch the upper jowls against the big canine teeth and command fetch. He WILL open. Then put the bumper in and command HOLD. You know he understands when you touch his muzzle and he opens his mouth automatically, or whines and opens it. From there you can go to the ear and he'll understand the pressure.
I'm wondering why you want to command HOLD? Then you have to command HOLD all the time. FETCH should mean HOLD, the dog shouldn't drop anything if told to FETCH! Just like SIT should mean STAY, the dog shouldn't move until told otherwise.
Just wondering, are you questioning if I understand pressure?
polmaise wrote: Ear pinch is pressure Not pain in my book. If you don't understand 'pressure' then the modern collar programmes are not for you!

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Re: FF

Post by polmaise » Thu Feb 12, 2015 4:51 pm

Gooseman07 wrote:I thought we were originally talking about the 'Hold' command? I never said it wasn't a process.
I'm done !
Go fetch :D

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Re: FF

Post by Fun dog » Thu Feb 12, 2015 5:16 pm

There are times I want my dog to hold. Say she starts mouthing. I tell her hold and she holds. I don't want her to fetch as that means go out and get something. Eventually I elliminate both hold and fetch as well as here ant sit. I send her on her name expecting her to complete all the components of a retrieve on her own, but all commands are still there if I need them.

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Re: FF

Post by Swampbilly » Thu Feb 12, 2015 9:23 pm

'Lemme give this a whirl-
HOLD is fairly parallel with HEEL in terms of a command that slowly, silently, becomes somewhat "non existent", yet heard enough, and taught enough to the point where the dog doesn't really forget it. That's why HEEL sometimes is better off left alone until HERE is well understood, they sound alike and no need for confusion.
If you teach your dog to HEEL from a front SIT command HERE, and command HEEL and guide the dog around to your side, before it's over with, (REPS) the dog learns to HEEL within the command HERE. It becomes one fluid motion, "built in" when the dog approaches you from whatever direction with a HERE command.
Same with HOLD, and it's a meaningful command, (at least for me it is), and a component of value.

Let's say you've got the dog on a front SIT and want him to come to your side with an object in his mouth. Whoops he dropped it at your feet instead of HEELING with it then SIT for a hand delivery. You going to command the dog to FETCH or command him to HOLD it?. If he's already Forced, then would suppose FETCH would work, but you still have to keep it in his mouth 'till he gets to your side and SITS.
Am in the camp of the 3 commands, FETCH, HOLD, DROP, each one means something different. Once the dog learns to hold without being commanded to, and until commanded to DROP, HOLD too, silently becomes "non existent" because it becomes built in with FETCH.
But when you command the dog to hold, ..it needs to HOLD.
Mouthing habits quite different than heeling, but hope the example worked. When you command HOLD in FF' I just like to keep my hand up there on his ear, (but NO pressure), and the dog knows your hand is up there. So if he doesn't hold it and drops it back comes the pressure until the object is back in his mouth. Dog learns to hold with no pressure.
Oh Boy-
Hope I 'splained it without screwin' it up :wink:

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Re: FF

Post by birddogger » Thu Feb 12, 2015 10:18 pm

Swampbilly wrote:'Lemme give this a whirl-
HOLD is fairly parallel with HEEL in terms of a command that slowly, silently, becomes somewhat "non existent", yet heard enough, and taught enough to the point where the dog doesn't really forget it. That's why HEEL sometimes is better off left alone until HERE is well understood, they sound alike and no need for confusion.
If you teach your dog to HEEL from a front SIT command HERE, and command HEEL and guide the dog around to your side, before it's over with, (REPS) the dog learns to HEEL within the command HERE. It becomes one fluid motion, "built in" when the dog approaches you from whatever direction with a HERE command.
Same with HOLD, and it's a meaningful command, (at least for me it is), and a component of value.

Let's say you've got the dog on a front SIT and want him to come to your side with an object in his mouth. Whoops he dropped it at your feet instead of HEELING with it then SIT for a hand delivery. You going to command the dog to FETCH or command him to HOLD it?. If he's already Forced, then would suppose FETCH would work, but you still have to keep it in his mouth 'till he gets to your s
Am in the camp of the 3 commands, FETCH, HOLD, DROP, each one means something different. Once the dog learns to hold without being commanded to, and until commanded to DROP, HOLD too, silently becomes "non existent" because it becomes built in with FETCH.
But when you command the dog to hold, ..it needs to HOLD.
Mouthing habits quite different than heeling, but hope the example worked. When you command HOLD in FF' I just like to keep my hand up there on his ear, (but NO pressure), and the dog knows your hand is up there. So if he doesn't hold it and drops it back comes the pressure until the object is back in his mouth. Dog learns to hold with no pressure.
Oh Boy-
Hope I 'splained it without screwin' it up :wink:
Excellent!!

Charlie
If you think you can or if you think you can't, you are right either way

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FF "Hold and Drop"

Post by scsims » Wed Feb 18, 2015 10:50 am

I've got hold and drop solid, now when I try to get him up and moving, he wants it out of his mouth. I have to hold my hand on his mouth as we make short walks.

I guess this is just the learning process, as I had to hold my hand on his mouth at the beginning of just sitting as well.

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Re: FF

Post by mountaindogs » Wed Feb 18, 2015 11:00 am

Gooseman07 wrote:
gonehuntin' wrote:That's your problem. He needs to open his mouth from pressure. Now he thinks, " here comes that jerk to stuff the buck in my mouth. Why should I?" Instead of forcing the bumper in, pinch the upper jowls against the big canine teeth and command fetch. He WILL open. Then put the bumper in and command HOLD. You know he understands when you touch his muzzle and he opens his mouth automatically, or whines and opens it. From there you can go to the ear and he'll understand the pressure.
I'm wondering why you want to command HOLD? Then you have to command HOLD all the time. FETCH should mean HOLD, the dog shouldn't drop anything if told to FETCH! Just like SIT should mean STAY, the dog shouldn't move until told otherwise.
For me, I teach hold because I want to be able to pinpoint fix an issue later. If the problem requires a better hold I want to be able to spot fix that. But ultimately it's like sit. If you say heel you also mean sit but you do not have to add it when the two have been connected. Or stay if you use that. Or any other command that is part of a multi step learning process. You can keep it all one and have the dog required to complete the whole every time or you can break it up and review pieces. Just a training preference.

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Re: FF

Post by Ouzel » Thu Feb 19, 2015 5:58 pm

I don't find the arguments for a separate hold command very convincing. Probably one of those "the way we've always done it" methodologies.

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Re: FF

Post by mountaindogs » Tue Mar 03, 2015 3:13 pm

Personally speaking I started years ago with the train only sit never stay, train only fetch never hold. Later I found that despite the older advice... Teaching two steps or essentially a keep going signal for both things I could better correct the actual issue. It narrowed the command so the dogs mind can focus on one thing instead of balancing the whole chained series on one word. It's not required I just find he dogs catch on more quickly. When the event chain has been trained well, it is cued with one word only. If the dog start getting sloppy in the middle, we can fix it quickly with the middle cue clearly explaining to the dog what I want fixed. I.e hold or stay or whatever.... Then we return to expecting it without the extra cue ...

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Re: FF

Post by mountaindogs » Tue Mar 03, 2015 3:14 pm

scsims wrote:I've got hold and drop solid, now when I try to get him up and moving, he wants it out of his mouth. I have to hold my hand on his mouth as we make short walks.

I guess this is just the learning process, as I had to hold my hand on his mouth at the beginning of just sitting as well.
This is normal. You taught his to be still and hold this. Now when you ask him to move he expects to drop it. Just takes time to get them to see the new picture of expectations. Nearly every dog wants to spit it out when you start to add moving forward into the game.

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Re: FF

Post by birddogger » Tue Mar 03, 2015 3:16 pm

mountaindogs wrote:Personally speaking I started years ago with the train only sit never stay, train only fetch never hold. Later I found that despite the older advice... Teaching two steps or essentially a keep going signal for both things I could better correct the actual issue. It narrowed the command so the dogs mind can focus on one thing instead of balancing the whole chained series on one word. It's not required I just find he dogs catch on more quickly. When the event chain has been trained well, it is cued with one word only. If the dog start getting sloppy in the middle, we can fix it quickly with the middle cue clearly explaining to the dog what I want fixed. I.e hold or stay or whatever.... Then we return to expecting it without the extra cue ...
Well put!!
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