Gun Dog Forum

I was wondering if anyone has some training ideas to get my dog to hunt dead. It arose because this last weekend I was hunting with her and she pointed and i shot a pheasant she tracked and retrieved. while i was watching her my friend stepped on a bird and shot a pheasant that sailed 100 yards and came down. My dog did not see it. We headed over to where we thought it was and I commanded my dog to find the bird but she just would stop and look at me like she didnt know what to do. she would then start hunting as usual. We never did find the bird. Any training thoughts on what I could do to make her aware that we are searching for a dead bird or crippled bird??

Can we get more info? How old? How far along in your training program are you? Which program? Etc. Etc.

Bird went 100yds in the air before going down? Sounds like a cripple that hit the ground and ran off. I did that years ago with my springer's. I'd take something for a drag and drag it out where the dog could see it but near cover. After a number of time's doing that I'd drag it into the cover. When I'd send the dog that time it would go to where the drag always was and root around for it. Didn't take to long and the dog's would go for blind's. I doubt that's the way it's supposed to be done but it seem's to work well for me. You need to get the dog knowing something is down where your sending it. Shouldn't take to long.

My dog is 3 years old she is a GSP. She is steady to wing shot and fall which Iam finding out isn't always the best if Iam hunting in thick cover. (she points I flush and shoot and she has no idea where the bird fell because she is standing still). I have also noticed when i shoot a bird and if its not dead she will go for the retrieve but then stand and continue to point once she comes upon the bird if its still alive. I will even yell at her to fetch and she still points. almost like I trained her so hard to stay solid on a bird she doesnt want to break. I know I went into other issues but thats her background.

This may not seem helpful at the moment, but if I were you I would FF, or at least take a hard look at it. Evan Graham has a good program and is usually available to answer any questions.

DonF wrote:Bird went 100yds in the air before going down? Sounds like a cripple that hit the ground and ran off. I did that years ago with my springer's. I'd take something for a drag and drag it out where the dog could see it but near cover. After a number of time's doing that I'd drag it into the cover. When I'd send the dog that time it would go to where the drag always was and root around for it. Didn't take to long and the dog's would go for blind's. I doubt that's the way it's supposed to be done but it seem's to work well for me. You need to get the dog knowing something is down where your sending it. Shouldn't take to long.

There's your good advice.

JOACHimt: Which is why many folk who don't trial, train their dog to go on the shot. Then there are the experts who can train their dog to hold fully until sent.

Don is right on again. Listen to him and ask questions if you get stuck.

Ezzy

Or you could just hide a piece of meat (hot dog, chicken, etc.) hide it and give the dog whatever command you want to use for hunt dead ( I just use "dead" or "dead bird" ). A few times of this and the dog will find your bird when given the command. Whatever method you choose, it shouldn't take long. I discussed this one other time on here and was challenged by another member because he could see no reason for a command for this but I do and train all my dogs to hunt dead. A lot of dogs will just pick it up through experience, but either way, it is a pretty simple thing.

Charlie

birddogger wrote:Or you could just hide a piece of meat (hot dog, chicken, etc.) hide it and give the dog whatever command you want to use for hunt dead ( I just use "dead" or "dead bird" ). A few times of this and the dog will find your bird when given the command. Whatever method you choose, it shouldn't take long. I discussed this one other time on here and was challenged by another member because he could see no reason for a command for this but I do and train all my dogs to hunt dead. A lot of dogs will just pick it up through experience, but either way, it is a pretty simple thing.

Charlie

this same method has allways worked for me

Don and birdoggers both methods work . no matter what object you use the object should be drug to create a scent trail. preferred object are object that give off good scent like hot dogs , chicken or pop a hole in a can of sardines and allow the juice to drip as you drag. Dogs love the smell of sardine juice. NAVHDA folks use these methods all the time to start pups tracking. By just placing a object out say 50 yds. and telling a dog to hunt dead your basically asking the dog to do a blind search. back up and teach the dog to track scent to the object. once the dog has tracking down place the object out with out a drag. dog is told to hunt dead . Dog will start to search for the track and push forward most of time looking for the drug scent . The dog finds the object and clicks , here it is. things seem to go smoother by teaching tracking first . In the end you've taught the dogs two things. To track a running bird and how to do a blind search on a stationary object. a dead fall that the dog didn't see.

I got the gist of this idea from Derry Argue's book, pointers and setters.

In the book he described how he taught some of his dogs to track. He took their ration of kibble and put it down on a piece of ground, kibble by kibble.

I don't go that far. I use the very little milk bone type treats...the ones that are about 3/4" long. I have the puppy running around in the back yard and when the pup is not watching, I drop three or five treats in the grass. I will the move to another part of the yard and repeat the drop. I will then walk over to the first drop, call the pup in and command "Hunt DEAD!!" The first couple times, I may have to drop a treat on top of the others with the pup watching, but they seem to get the idea pretty quickly. I move around, play with the pup, and when it is off messing around I move to another drop spot, call the dog and command "HUNT DEAD." A few sessions of this and they know to put their schnozz on the ground because there is something good there. As they get better and better at it, I do not allow them to stop searching until I release them.

It translates pretty well into the field. I have always done this with puppies, but there is no reason why you could not do it with an adult dog, especially before feeding time.

The situation you described may well have been a wounded bird that ran off, VERY plausible, but also you may have had something else going on. I have pasted pheasants pretty good, going away and yet they kept on going. When I see them set their wings and glide, I know I am in for it, because the bird is probably dead in the air and gliding. It will hit the ground with a thud and the dogs have a heck of a time locating it, because the bird scent was totally airwashed away and since it is dead, it ain't makin' no more. I have had really, really good dogs fail to find a dead, downed bird in things like standing corn, but when I went up and down the rows myself...because I HATE to lose birds... all too often I would see the bird laying there where it crash landed, crumpled up in a pile, dead as a stone.

Point is, don't beat yourself up and don't think the dog was not trying. There might simply have been nothing much there for the dog to key in on. It happens.

As I said, I HATE to lose birds. I will search for a half hour for a downed quail. My dogs know that. They also know that they ain't goin' nowhere until they come up with that dead bird. My dogs would soooo very much rather be running and hunting than stuck in one small piece of real estate...but they know that until one of them comes up with that wounded or crippled or dead bird, they will all be right there doing their very best imitation of a Hoover. Pointers must hate that, I think, because they seem to come up with those downed birds fairly quickly, most of the time.

RayG

Dead bird fetch

I agree with everything that has been said, but I will just add that for me, tracking and hunting dead are two different things. For me, more times than not, finding a downed bird is Just a matter of keeping the dog in one area until he comes up with the bird that has fallen into some thick cover that the dog didn't see fall. When I comment on this topic, I am assuming the dog can already track running birds (two different things IMO).

Charlie

birddogger wrote: I am assuming the dog can already track running birds (two different things IMO).

As I explained they are two different things. How can you teach a dog to hold a area 100 yards away without locating scent first or seeing the fall. The track helps develop the wellingness to fallow scent to unknown places. In turn helps the understand to push forward until his nose stops him. it's a hech of allot easier when you are johnny on the spot to hold a dog in a erea then it from a 100 yds away. If the bird has fallen in thick heavy cover can you actually see the to keep yelling dead . sometimes you can sometimes not. IMO the two have a correlation in the development of the later, being the blind search. This is what makes topics like this interesting . Different ways of getting it done . Nobody is right ,nobody is wrong.

Cut up hot dog thrown in the grass and telling the dog to hunt dead......do this a few times and the dogs get the idea to put their noses down.

Force fetch your dog and teach it to do blind retrieves. Pointing dogs are as capable of learning these skills as retrievers. To teach your dog to hunt cripples, use a scented bumper/dummy or a dead pigeon or training bird and drag it across a training field and have dog retrieve to hand when he finds it.

joachimt wrote:My dog is 3 years old she is a GSP. She is steady to wing shot and fall which Iam finding out isn't always the best if Iam hunting in thick cover. (she points I flush and shoot and she has no idea where the bird fell because she is standing still). I have also noticed when i shoot a bird and if its not dead she will go for the retrieve but then stand and continue to point once she comes upon the bird if its still alive. I will even yell at her to fetch and she still points. almost like I trained her so hard to stay solid on a bird she doesnt want to break. I know I went into other issues but thats her background.

You need a command to release her and hunt bird. In the retriever arena, we say hunt it up... Just my two pennies worth.

I don't see why additional training is needed if the dog hunted the area where the bird fell I would think he would have found it if it were there. I agree the bird ran off on the ground.
mm

Thanks for all the responses. you have all given me some ideas on what i should do!!!!

There's a difference ,
You train the dog on the command to ""fetch"" when the dog has clearly marked the fall, and the command ""dead dead""on a blind retrieve , so the dog will continue to search for a dead or injured bird till you call the search off, you do this training in yard work with bumpers then freshly killed pigeons ,

I've always played fetch with my dogs for a reward. There's a difference in making a dog retrieve and playing fetch. We get out in the yard with a dead or frozen bird and have a big time. I'll have two or three of them and keep throwing them. When he brings one back, I send him for another. Then I put the dog up, go hide the birds around the yard or in the park down the road or some other area then turn the dog out again and tell him to fetch. I just keep repeating the command and they go to searching. If they go off way in the wrong direction, I just call them back in and tell them to fetch. I don't use a different command to hunt dead or anything like that. This is just the way that fits me and that I prefer. If you make it a hide and seek game with your dog, you're more likely to get him to do a better job rather than if you make it more of a forceful situation. Also, if he has something he really likes to fetch besides birds - a ball or tug or something - you can throw it out in your yard at night to make him really use his nose.

Soarer31 wrote:There's a difference ,
You train the dog on the command to ""fetch"" when the dog has clearly marked the fall, and the command ""dead dead""on a blind retrieve , so the dog will continue to search for a dead or injured bird till you call the search off, you do this training in yard work with bumpers then freshly killed pigeons ,

You call the dog on his or her name on a mark fall to release. If your dog is steady to flush, then you give a command to release dog. In the retriever world...

Yeah, I know that mate,
But this is my world..