How old before you kill birds over pup??

dogdoc · Post by **dogdoc** » Mon Oct 27, 2014 6:01 pm

I have a 5.5 month old brittany I have been working with. I have been doing basic obedience training and have exposed her to dove and released quail. She is bird crazy and really goes after them. We live on a farm and she is free all day with my other dogs(dobermans). The only time I kennel her is bedtime for house training .She goes with us every day on run/walks on the property and readily swims in the pond and creek. She pointed a group of doves in our fielding held it pretty well. She goes crazy with doves my son and I have killed this year.. I have even played fetch with her with one. I have loudly beat pots when I feed her and she comes running.I iWork on whoa when I feed as well. Last week we planted quail and she made some nice points and even held them for a little while. When the birds flushed we fired blanks and then 410 shotgun. She paid no attention to the noise just wanted the birds. I thought this week I would plant some birds in my new launcher, put on her check cord , let her point (even flash point) , hold with cord while whoa ,launch the bird and shoot it with a 410 then let her go get it. Too young or not?

ruffbritt4 · Post by **ruffbritt4** » Mon Oct 27, 2014 6:39 pm

They need to be having fun at that age. If the dog is holding points, and has been properly introduced to the shotgun I would say kill the bird. He is your dog so you can train him to whatever level you like. If you want him to be steady to flush, only shoot birds he is pointing and letting you flush. Shooting bumped birds will only encourage the behavior.

Gooseman07 · Post by **Gooseman07** » Mon Oct 27, 2014 6:51 pm

I would let the launcher do the work and ditch the CC. If she is already holding for a good amount of time, it won't take many launched birds for her to figure out what the deal is. I agree with ruffbrit, you train to the level you feel comfortable with. Me personally, the dogs don't get shot birds until they let me flush the bird at your dogs age, steadying further comes later in life.

DonF · Post by **DonF** » Mon Oct 27, 2014 7:24 pm

I don't give the dog's shot birds until I can flush in front of them either. I also like to hold off on much real training other than letting the run and discover the world on it's own. Watch them closely and they will let you know when to move forward. If it's the only one you have, waiting can get strenuous! Going forward before the pup is ready isn't really that big a thing but, you get some good work out of her this hunting season and good chance you'll wonder what happened to her next year. Second year madness! Somewhere between first year and second year the puppy grew up and decided to expand her horizon's! My first pointing dog was started to soon also!

Bluesky2012 · Post by **Bluesky2012** » Tue Oct 28, 2014 1:23 pm

Someone please explain the "banging on pots" thing. Why would you do that? It's nothing like a gun.

Properly introduce the gun, ensure it's done well, then go for it.

Tooling · Post by **Tooling** » Tue Oct 28, 2014 2:11 pm

Breeders will often bang on pots & pans while pups are eating at a very young age to increase the likelihood that loud or sudden noises are not an issue.

Post by **ezzy333** » Tue Oct 28, 2014 3:14 pm

Tooling wrote:Breeders will often bang on pots & pans while pups are eating at a very young age to increase the likelihood that loud or sudden noises are not an issue.

I am sure some do but over the years I have found it of little value and I think more and more are finding the same thing.

Ezzy

polmaise · Post by **polmaise** » Tue Oct 28, 2014 3:23 pm

dogdoc wrote:I have a 5.5 month old brittany I have been working with. I have been doing basic obedience training and have exposed her to dove and released quail. She is bird crazy and really goes after them. We live on a farm and she is free all day with my other dogs(dobermans). The only time I kennel her is bedtime for house training .She goes with us every day on run/walks on the property and readily swims in the pond and creek. She pointed a group of doves in our fielding held it pretty well. She goes crazy with doves my son and I have killed this year.. I have even played fetch with her with one. I have loudly beat pots when I feed her and she comes running.I iWork on whoa when I feed as well. Last week we planted quail and she made some nice points and even held them for a little while. When the birds flushed we fired blanks and then 410 shotgun. She paid no attention to the noise just wanted the birds. I thought this week I would plant some birds in my new launcher, put on her check cord , let her point (even flash point) , hold with cord while whoa ,launch the bird and shoot it with a 410 then let her go get it. Too young or not?

Sounds like all the dogs I get in for training .

Tooling · Post by **Tooling** » Tue Oct 28, 2014 3:27 pm

ezzy333 wrote:
Tooling wrote:Breeders will often bang on pots & pans while pups are eating at a very young age to increase the likelihood that loud or sudden noises are not an issue.

I am sure some do but over the years I have found it of little value and I think more and more are finding the same thing.

Ezzy

Thanks for sharing your experience

Couldn't comment on whether it works or not - been fortunate to have never had any issue. Breeder of this pup did it and he doesn't even get scared when the air compressor turns on out of the blue (always seems to get me though)

We didn't do it with the litter we had years ago and they never had any issues either so..

We had a dog shot several years ago - she never could deal w/loud sudden noise following that and who could blame her

(Wife coddling her during t-storms did not help much)

bonasa · Post by **bonasa** » Tue Oct 28, 2014 4:34 pm

In a few months to a year can begin the second to last sentence. I'd find a handful of books, DVD 's and study them all. While you wait I'd find a local training group, walk a trial or use the search Que on here. Whoa/stand command is for after the flush, say and do nothing while the bird is on the ground. If the dog moves before, during or after the flush I don't shoot at it, ever. Good luck.

Stoneface · Post by **Stoneface** » Tue Oct 28, 2014 4:47 pm

Doc, the last thing I would do right now is shoot over the dog. Let him be a puppy and learn he can't catch the birds by bumping and chasing. If you have to restrain him to hold until the flush then killing a bird isn't doing anything besides satisfying your desire to shoot a bird over your dog. If you wait until he's holding solid to the flush before you shoot a bird for him, the shot bird will be a reward and he'll get the idea that his job isn't to catch the birds, but to pin them for you to shoot. If you have to restrain to the flush then you're teaching him it's okay to break point and you'll still give him a bird.

Bluesky2012 · Post by **Bluesky2012** » Tue Oct 28, 2014 4:53 pm

Tooling wrote:
ezzy333 wrote:
Tooling wrote:Breeders will often bang on pots & pans while pups are eating at a very young age to increase the likelihood that loud or sudden noises are not an issue.

I am sure some do but over the years I have found it of little value and I think more and more are finding the same thing.

Ezzy
Thanks for sharing your experience

Couldn't comment on whether it works or not - been fortunate to have never had any issue. Breeder of this pup did it and he doesn't even get scared when the air compressor turns on out of the blue (always seems to get me though)

We didn't do it with the litter we had years ago and they never had any issues either so..

We had a dog shot several years ago - she never could deal w/loud sudden noise following that and who could blame her (Wife coddling her during t-storms did not help much)

Haha my fat GSP loves to hunt and lives for the gun but thunder about gives him a stroke. His farts even scare him awake some times. Who knows...

dogdoc · Post by **dogdoc** » Tue Oct 28, 2014 7:53 pm

polmaise wrote:
dogdoc wrote:I have a 5.5 month old brittany I have been working with. I have been doing basic obedience training and have exposed her to dove and released quail. She is bird crazy and really goes after them. We live on a farm and she is free all day with my other dogs(dobermans). The only time I kennel her is bedtime for house training .She goes with us every day on run/walks on the property and readily swims in the pond and creek. She pointed a group of doves in our fielding held it pretty well. She goes crazy with doves my son and I have killed this year.. I have even played fetch with her with one. I have loudly beat pots when I feed her and she comes running.I iWork on whoa when I feed as well. Last week we planted quail and she made some nice points and even held them for a little while. When the birds flushed we fired blanks and then 410 shotgun. She paid no attention to the noise just wanted the birds. I thought this week I would plant some birds in my new launcher, put on her check cord , let her point (even flash point) , hold with cord while whoa ,launch the bird and shoot it with a 410 then let her go get it. Too young or not?
Sounds like all the dogs I get in for training .

Maybe not? I ask that question to hear different opinions from gifted expert trainers like yourself as I am a novice . I assume your response means you would do differently. Please give me some objective advice to avoid a ruined dog.

dogdoc · Post by **dogdoc** » Tue Oct 28, 2014 8:14 pm

Thanks for all the replies. Most are constructive and helpful for me. I have been allowing her to bump birds to teach her she cannot catch them and have fun. I purchased the launcher so I could make less likely she would catch a pen raised bird. I have also used that bird excitement to condition her to gun fire. She exhibits no fear when the shot gun is fired when she is after bird. I think the LOUD pot beating has helped her . Loud noise does not bother her at all. I was out in my shop running a nail gun the other day and did realize she was there. I turned around and she was just watching me not bothered in the least. I am working on whoa when I feed and with heel training

polmaise · Post by **polmaise** » Wed Oct 29, 2014 12:56 am

dogdoc wrote: Please give me some objective advice to avoid a ruined dog.

Sounds like you are doing just fine

ruffbritt4 · Post by **ruffbritt4** » Wed Oct 29, 2014 4:47 am

dogdoc wrote:Thanks for all the replies. Most are constructive and helpful for me. I have been allowing her to bump birds to teach her she cannot catch them and have fun. I purchased the launcher so I could make less likely she would catch a pen raised bird. I have also used that bird excitement to condition her to gun fire. She exhibits no fear when the shot gun is fired when she is after bird. I think the LOUD pot beating has helped her . Loud noise does not bother her at all. I was out in my shop running a nail gun the other day and did realize she was there. I turned around and she was just watching me not bothered in the least. I am working on whoa when I feed and with heel training

I think when people were wondering why you use the pots is because you want a positive association to the shotgun. That association being a dead bird.

Bluesky2012 · Post by **Bluesky2012** » Wed Oct 29, 2014 5:32 am

ruffbritt4 wrote:
dogdoc wrote:Thanks for all the replies. Most are constructive and helpful for me. I have been allowing her to bump birds to teach her she cannot catch them and have fun. I purchased the launcher so I could make less likely she would catch a pen raised bird. I have also used that bird excitement to condition her to gun fire. She exhibits no fear when the shot gun is fired when she is after bird. I think the LOUD pot beating has helped her . Loud noise does not bother her at all. I was out in my shop running a nail gun the other day and did realize she was there. I turned around and she was just watching me not bothered in the least. I am working on whoa when I feed and with heel training
I think when people were wondering why you use the pots is because you want a positive association to the shotgun. That association being a dead bird.

Exactly. The dog does not associate a loud pot as the same loud sound as a gun. That was the joke we were making. Research Pavlov to understand gun conditioning, and why pots do nothing and a dog can be afraid of any sound but still live for the gun.

dogdoc · Post by **dogdoc** » Wed Oct 29, 2014 6:06 am

Bluesky2012 wrote:
ruffbritt4 wrote:
dogdoc wrote:Thanks for all the replies. Most are constructive and helpful for me. I have been allowing her to bump birds to teach her she cannot catch them and have fun. I purchased the launcher so I could make less likely she would catch a pen raised bird. I have also used that bird excitement to condition her to gun fire. She exhibits no fear when the shot gun is fired when she is after bird. I think the LOUD pot beating has helped her . Loud noise does not bother her at all. I was out in my shop running a nail gun the other day and did realize she was there. I turned around and she was just watching me not bothered in the least. I am working on whoa when I feed and with heel training
I think when people were wondering why you use the pots is because you want a positive association to the shotgun. That association being a dead bird.
Exactly. The dog does not associate a loud pot as the same loud sound as a gun. That was the joke we were making. Research Pavlov to understand gun conditioning, and why pots do nothing and a dog can be afraid of any sound but still live for the gun.

But I do not want my dog afraid of loud noises period regardless of source and it seems to work but maybe she would be unafraid anyway. We will never know. I sure do not think it has hurt anything and its easy to do. She associates loud noise now with good things such as eating and going after birds (when I have shot when she has bumped birds). Hopefully soon it will be a dead bird as well!
From reading books,forums and watching videos, one thing I have learned is there are many ways and techniques to achieve the same thing. There seem to be few absolutes and people are quick to condemn methods other than their own but I like that as others opinions are what make it interesting. I try to learn something from others experiences, so I appreciate all the opinions. Of course I will make a lot of mistakes anyway but me and my dog will be having fun!

aulrich · Post by **aulrich** » Wed Oct 29, 2014 9:32 am

I would hunt the dog as much as I could, BUT , like it has been said shoot only pointed birds. With my dog which started at about the same age as yours, I called it walking in the field with a gun and a dog I was most of the way through hunting season before I got a real point out of him (slow year for birds combined with my green-ness with hunting a dog).

Two other things I would recommend ,

Set up a pigeon koop , pigeons are the best accessory to your launcher, and they are heavily used in the steadying process

Google NAVHDA and if there is a chapter close to you, join up and if you are a rookie I would recommend testing your dog. For one you see what a finished dog looks like(dog running higher level tests), and preparing for the test will ensure you have a reasonably well rounded hunting dog.

Tooling · Post by **Tooling** » Wed Oct 29, 2014 11:40 am

dogdoc wrote:But I do not want my dog afraid of loud noises period regardless of source and it seems to work but maybe she would be unafraid anyway. We will never know. I sure do not think it has hurt anything and its easy to do. She associates loud noise now with good things such as eating and going after birds (when I have shot when she has bumped birds). Hopefully soon it will be a dead bird as well!
From reading books,forums and watching videos, one thing I have learned is there are many ways and techniques to achieve the same thing. There seem to be few absolutes and people are quick to condemn methods other than their own but I like that as others opinions are what make it interesting. I try to learn something from others experiences, so I appreciate all the opinions. Of course I will make a lot of mistakes anyway but me and my dog will be having fun!

I agree that loud and sudden noises should not hurt anything at all. I'm not so sure I would go out of my way to create these instances though. I have found that when something sudden or loud happens a young pup will sometimes stop and look at you, it is imperative that you do not react nor coddle in any way but rather just go about your business as usual. If your pup startles just don't even acknowledge it and over time pup will be just fine. Like you, I have a shop at my home - dogs have always hung out in there and loud noises have never been any issue whatsoever. I also shared my experience w/a dog that had been shot & the effect it had on her but I don't think that situation is even remotely relevant other than sharing the effect. She did become very fearful of thunder and my bride would pet her and also very much coddle her - it really did in an injustice to the dog IMO but that was a tricky one as the dog would literally cry w/such fear that it was difficult to not wrap her in our arms where she felt safe. The dog literally was in tears at times & just writing this moistens my eyes..it was heartbreaking.

The pup we have now does not even flinch at virtually anything. He jumped and startled not long ago when a bolt of lightning struck close to the house in the middle of the night which made us all jump out of bed. He looked to me for comfort and I simply did not acknowledge - he remains unafraid of thunder/lightning. He does not like fireworks (which is common) and as such I will not put him in a situation where he will be exposed to it but if the occasion comes to pass that one of the local kids starts tossing M-80's (lol) I will just pay it no mind if pup reacts. My dog excites at the sound of gunfire and I believe most bird dogs act the same but I'm "bleep" sure not going to take him to the gun range and I would exercise some caution before setting him beside me in a blind w/a large group and plenty of gunfire w/out preparing him for it and approaching that situation methodically and cautiously first. Sounds to me like you're doing fine but I'm not a pro either. Never ever stop and stare your dog down after any sort of noise to gage his reaction because that in itself can pressure the dog..just glance and have an awareness of your surroundings including the dog.

With respect to a kill shot for pup - I think you have received sage advice.

~Scot

smittty · Post by **smittty** » Wed Oct 29, 2014 3:56 pm

I have a dog he is retired now but I got him from alfred king anyway I had him holding birds like a champ at 13 weeks old so I called Alfred and said what's next he said shoot a bird over him he said he will be fine so I did and by the time that dog was a year old I had killed well over 100 birds over him .. he was and still is a great dog that will be hard to replace

Bluesky2012 · Post by **Bluesky2012** » Wed Oct 29, 2014 6:58 pm

dogdoc wrote:
But I do not want my dog afraid of loud noises period regardless of source and it seems to work but maybe she would be unafraid anyway. We will never know. I sure do not think it has hurt anything and its easy to do. She associates loud noise now with good things such as eating and going after birds (when I have shot when she has bumped birds). Hopefully soon it will be a dead bird as well!
From reading books,forums and watching videos, one thing I have learned is there are many ways and techniques to achieve the same thing. There seem to be few absolutes and people are quick to condemn methods other than their own but I like that as others opinions are what make it interesting. I try to learn something from others experiences, so I appreciate all the opinions. Of course I will make a lot of mistakes anyway but me and my dog will be having fun!

There's a thousand ways to skin a cat, but 99% of those methods are just stupid. I could also train my dog while wearing a clown costume so that he isn't afraid of clowns. But why?

I want a gun dog. I want him trained to love the gun. Preventing fear of other issues in life occurs through socialization. But hey, if you want to bang pots, put a wing on a string, or other "methods" that people advertise, go ahead.

Think about this: a dog can be conditioned to the sound of a gun, but the dog cannot generalize that sound to anything other than the gun. It still has no opinion on thunder, cars backfiring, etc because they do not generalize well, so it may or may not be afraid of the other sounds. What makes you think then that a dog can generalize banging on pots to mean it's safe around loud sounds including guns? The dog doesn't generalize like that, but instead it just thinks "some crazy guy is banging crap over my head in the house, so that specific instance must be reasonably safe because nothing bad has happened". It does not generalize banging pots to mean thunder, car doors, guns, etc are safe.

Again, research Pavlov and a lot more of the "why" of dog training will make sense.

Tooling · Post by **Tooling** » Wed Oct 29, 2014 7:59 pm

Bluesky2012 wrote:
There's a thousand ways to skin a cat, but 99% of those methods are just stupid. I could also train my dog while wearing a clown costume so that he isn't afraid of clowns. But why?

lol - that's awesome

trueblu · Post by **trueblu** » Thu Oct 30, 2014 7:07 am

First time I ever agreed with Ezzy.

Personally, I have always introduced killing birds differently and in a different order than seems to be what is being recommended. I have always let pups point, hold as long as they will naturally, bump, chase, etc. Most of these encounters are on wild quail or good flying pen birds. But, when the dog is in full chase, I introduce the blank gun then the shotgun over a period of at least a month or so. Once the dog is nuts for birds, loves to chase, while in full chase, and again, after at least a month, I will kill a bird for the dog. However, I never have introduced whoa before the dog is pointing well, loves to chase, holds on his own, has had the gun introduced, and has had birds shot over him. I then take him hunting and kill wild birds over his held points.

The ONLY dog I have ever not followed this regime was with FC Trueblu's BDK Ace In The Hole. He would not chase no matter what I did. He held points until I would fall asleep. I was walking in front of him flushing pigeons, pen quail, and then wild quail when he was less than 6 months. Made the gun intro a little tricky. Finally had a friend shoot from a distance and just get closer.

Most dogs so love to chase and if bred well, have so much bird desire, chasing is never an issue so gun intro is easy.

My recommendation is to hold off on whoa and do not use a check cord unless the dog is catching poor flying birds. Let the dog chase and while in full chase kill a bird. If the dog reacts in any way ignore him. If he does seem jumpy go backward a little and let him chase like crazy, get him psycho chasing, then intro the gun again. Worse thing anyone can create is a gun shy.

dogdoc · Post by **dogdoc** » Thu Oct 30, 2014 6:29 pm

[
There's a thousand ways to skin a cat, but 99% of those methods are just stupid. I could also train my dog while wearing a clown costume so that he isn't afraid of clowns. But why?

I want a gun dog. I want him trained to love the gun. Preventing fear of other issues in life occurs through socialization. But hey, if you want to bang pots, put a wing on a string, or other "methods" that people advertise, go ahead.

Think about this: a dog can be conditioned to the sound of a gun, but the dog cannot generalize that sound to anything other than the gun. It still has no opinion on thunder, cars backfiring, etc because they do not generalize well, so it may or may not be afraid of the other sounds. What makes you think then that a dog can generalize banging on pots to mean it's safe around loud sounds including guns? The dog doesn't generalize like that, but instead it just thinks "some crazy guy is banging crap over my head in the house, so that specific instance must be reasonably safe because nothing bad has happened". It does not generalize banging pots to mean thunder, car doors, guns, etc are safe.

Again, research Pavlov and a lot more of the "why" of dog training will make sense.[/quote]

I disagree . In my work, I see dogs routinely that are afraid of loud noises whether they be fireworks, gunfire, thunder and others.Some do indeed seem to generalize a dislike for loud noises. I am sure some do not. Very few absolutes. I do appreciate your opinion however.

Bluesky2012 · Post by **Bluesky2012** » Thu Oct 30, 2014 7:49 pm

dogdoc wrote:[
There's a thousand ways to skin a cat, but 99% of those methods are just stupid. I could also train my dog while wearing a clown costume so that he isn't afraid of clowns. But why?

I want a gun dog. I want him trained to love the gun. Preventing fear of other issues in life occurs through socialization. But hey, if you want to bang pots, put a wing on a string, or other "methods" that people advertise, go ahead.

Think about this: a dog can be conditioned to the sound of a gun, but the dog cannot generalize that sound to anything other than the gun. It still has no opinion on thunder, cars backfiring, etc because they do not generalize well, so it may or may not be afraid of the other sounds. What makes you think then that a dog can generalize banging on pots to mean it's safe around loud sounds including guns? The dog doesn't generalize like that, but instead it just thinks "some crazy guy is banging crap over my head in the house, so that specific instance must be reasonably safe because nothing bad has happened". It does not generalize banging pots to mean thunder, car doors, guns, etc are safe.

Again, research Pavlov and a lot more of the "why" of dog training will make sense.

I disagree . In my work, I see dogs routinely that are afraid of loud noises whether they be fireworks, gunfire, thunder and others.Some do indeed seem to generalize a dislike for loud noises. I am sure some do not. Very few absolutes. I do appreciate your opinion however.[/quote]

Fair enough response.

Pepper · Post by **Pepper** » Thu Oct 30, 2014 8:16 pm

If you have a good dog, then it is a good dog. Per advice from experts from my field that I ask advice from....let the pup grow and get pup in the field every day to exposed to the environment. You will be surprise on what they gain. I have a almost 5 month GSP that is having a fun time in the field....mousing or not.

Our standards in human terms does not meet their needs. Their needs to meet their standard needs are what we need to show in us and train so that they understand.
These dogs are smart and independent and it is up to us to show them that we trust them and show that what we do....that pleases us and in return them.

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