field trial question.

[Trekmoor]

In American retriever field trials is it ever possible for a dog to eyewipe another dog ?

Bill T.

[EvanG]

What does that mean Bill?

EvanG

[mnaj_springer]

What does that mean Bill?

EvanG

I literally just googled this. It appears that when another dog finds a bird the first dog missed, then they eyewiped the bird. Correct me if I'm wrong Bill.

[Trekmoor]

Sorry folks.... an "eyewipe" occurs when a dog fails to find a bird it was sent to retrieve and the bird is found by another dog sent after the first dog has been recalled. This is a regular occurrence during British retriever trials and spaniel and Hunt- Point-Retriever trials too. The first dog sent is eliminated from the trial if the bird is found by the next dog sent and that dog (the one that did find the bird) is credited with an eyewipe which probably means it's retrieve would be marked as an "A +" in a retriever trial.

It used to be the case that as many as 5 retrievers would be sent for a shot bird one after the other . If all of the dogs failed then only the first dog sent was eliminated as it had the best chance but if, for example, the fifth dog sent found the bird then all four previous dogs were eliminated. That would be called " a fifth dog down eyewipe" and the dog that managed that would be given as high a mark as it was possible to give....the dog would be "mentioned in despatches" when the judges consulted their books at the end of a trial.

I never achieved a 5th dog down eyewipe , it was a very rare thing . Most times the judges would decide that 3 dogs tried on a bird were enough for it would be possible to empty out an entire trial very quickly if every dog was sent to try to find a lost bird.
I am very uncertain about our trial rules now but I think someone told me that no more than 3 dogs are ever sent for a bird now.

The eyewipe thing gets continued onto ordinary shooting days here with a great deal of friendly banter happening if someones dog pulls off an eyewipe.

I posted this after suddenly realising that American trials don't really give situations where eyewipes might occur ...just wanted to know if I was right or wrong in thinking this.

Bill T.

[EvanG]

I see. Thanks for the explanation Bill. It would not happen in a US trial because dogs are run one at a time on uniform tests, and scores are measured against each other at the end of the trial. There are usually four tests called "series". It usually goes like this; 1st series = land marks, 2nd series = land blind, 3rd series = water blind, 4th series = water blind. This is for Stakes (categories) other than Derby, in which there are no blind retrieves. In all cases only one dog runs at a time. The only involvement of another dog is that one dog will honor another as birds fall, and then will be instructed to leave the line after the competing dog is sent for the first fall. I hope I've made this clear. I know we use some different terms for things.

EvanG

[gundogguy]

I see. Thanks for the explanation Bill. It would not happen in a US trial because dogs are run one at a time on uniform tests, and scores are measured against each other at the end of the trial. There are usually four tests called "series". It usually goes like this; 1st series = land marks, 2nd series = land blind, 3rd series = water blind, 4th series = water blind. This is for Stakes (categories) other than Derby, in which there are no blind retrieves. In all cases only one dog runs at a time. The only involvement of another dog is that one dog will honor another as birds fall, and then will be instructed to leave the line after the competing dog is sent for the first fall. I hope I've made this clear. I know we use some different terms for things.

EvanG

Very nice and as you say there may be some different definitions. I have often thought the reason for the "eye wipe" is because the importance of the total number of braces of birds the would be accumulated on trialing day. Back in the day my troop and I used to play an eye wipe game both in shooting the bird and who's dog finished the retrieve.
There was always a cold one waiting for the winner at the end of those outings. Great fun!

[Trekmoor]

Thanks Evan , the answer to my question is "No" then. I thought it would be but wanted to make sure.

Bill T.

[EvanG]

Thanks Evan , the answer to my question is "No" then. I thought it would be but wanted to make sure.

Bill T.

You're welcome Bill. I've always thought your trials presented a closer approximation to hunting challenges than our trials do, although they're more upland. Ours are more focused on waterfowl-type skills. Because of the skills needed for waterfowling the tests are more conceptual. Many dog people come to our trials and can't connect with the mechanical looks of the tests because they cannot conceptualize. What we see is what we think we get, and that is not true of US trials. Your trials look like great fun!

EvanG

[crackerd]

No, it's not, Bill, per our one-dog-tested-at-a-time FT protocol - but it's perfectly possible to eyewipe an all-age American field trial retriever



even an eyewipe made by a soon-to-be 14-year-old Boykin (who's soon to have her ear fur back, hopefully, but went headlong and nose-first into the beans without it to achieve this particular eyewipe on a runner mourning dove).

MG

[Neil]

I have heard the term used in pointing dog field trials in much the same context. The first dog misses the bird, second dog points, but as the second dog is often thought to be trailing, it is not as definitive. We want our dogs to the front.

[Trekmoor]

Your trials look like great fun!

EvanG

Our trials are great fun ......right up to the moment when you get eyewiped ! Being eyewiped happens to someone in just about every retriever trial here and most trials have a lot of dogs eliminated due to being eyewiped. I don't think anyone who has competed in more than a very few trials here has escaped being eyewiped.

Our trials definitely are more "upland" sort of events. A retriever or a spaniel could win every trial it competed in without ever encountering water. Before a lab or a spaniel is made into a F.T.Ch. however it does have to demonstrate that it will readily enter water and swim for a retrieve. ..... It sometimes isn't much of a retrieve and many 4 -6 months old pups could pass the little test that is given if the pups were O.K. with gunfire. All the judges really want to see is that the dog being made up to F.T.Ch. will definitely swim.

Only the H.P.R. breeds (the versatiles) are given a water test to complete during a trial and even that is now changing as suitable water is not always available at every trial.
Our usual type of water retrieves at tests are usually very easy compared to the water retrieves expected at your tests.

Bill T.

[birdshot]

If you include the British Field Trial Society of America trials as American field trials, an eye wipe is possible. There seems to be a lot of interest in these competitions. http://WWW.britishfieldtrialsociety.com

[crackerd]

If you include the British Field Trial Society of America trials as American field trials, an eye wipe is possible. There seems to be a lot of interest in these competitions.

Interest by whom, the ghost of Benny Hill? The British may be interested in those "trials" as the sporting second coming of Fawlty Towers. But the American retriever community has about as much interest in them as in making Marmite a staple of our diet.

MG

[Trekmoor]

Just watched the four little videos of the American version of British Trials. The two dogs doing water retrieves would have been O.K. here. The upland dog work was very poor I.M.O. ..... both of those dogs would have been "out" or "not required for further work" in a British trial even at Novice level. Both dogs made hard work of short marked retrieves , both dogs wanted to be handled far too much, both dogs took far too long collecting the birds and one of them dropped the bird as it returned, had a right old kerfuffle with it while picking it up again and then took forever and a day to return just a few yards to it's handler with the bird.

Maybe the society holding "British style" trials needs to take a better look at British trials before labelling their trials as "British." We expect and get considerably higher standards of work than those I just watched......or maybe the videos didn't show the good dogs ?

Those videos give a very false impression of British trials , I hope not too many Americans are fooled into thinking that is a good reflection of our retriever trials.

Bill T.

[crackerd]

Bill, that's what you call d*mning with not even faint praise. Ouch - the truth hurts. But as the upcoming events page on their website lists one of those, er, British-ified trials as "upcoming" in 2012, would seem they've given up the ghost on staging them.

MG

[birdshot]

If you include the British Field Trial Society of America trials as American field trials, an eye wipe is possible. There seems to be a lot of interest in these competitions.

Interest by whom, the ghost of Benny Hill? The British may be interested in those "trials" as the sporting second coming of Fawlty Towers. But the American retriever community has about as much interest in them as in making Marmite a staple of our diet.

MG

I guess I should have looked at the web site before I linked the site. I had spoke with a trainer in Nebraska who trains dogs for British club rule trials. I was repeating information I had received from him.

[crackerd]

...guess I should have looked at the web site before I linked the site. I had spoke with a trainer in Nebraska who trains dogs for British club rule trials. I was repeating information I had received from him.

birdshot, nothing wrote with training dogs for British club rule trials - the trials boating steady, attentive and talented dogs are a joy to behold. Just ain't how we roll with retrievers here in the US of A, whether trialing them or their keeping us company in a duck blind.

MG

[DonF]

If you include the British Field Trial Society of America trials as American field trials, an eye wipe is possible. There seems to be a lot of interest in these competitions. http://WWW.britishfieldtrialsociety.com

$75 AND $100 Entry fee's? Must wear certain style clothe's? They seem to be pretty proud of themselves.

[crackerd]

If you include the British Field Trial Society of America trials as American field trials, an eye wipe is possible. There seems to be a lot of interest in these competitions. http://WWW.britishfieldtrialsociety.com

$75 AND $100 Entry fee's? Must wear certain style clothe's? They seem to be pretty proud of themselves.

What's not to be proud of about that? - Our FT entry fees are knocking on $100's door and we have to wear "certain clothes" too. Pick your poison with retriever games - you pays your money and puts on your pants one leg at a time in taking your chances...Nobody's forcing anybody to enter a field trial anywhere.

MG

[polmaise]

It used to be the case that as many as 5 retrievers would be sent for a shot bird one after the other . If all of the dogs failed then only the first dog sent was eliminated as it had the best chance but if, for example, the fifth dog sent found the bird then all four previous dogs were eliminated. That would be called " a fifth dog down eyewipe" and the dog that managed that would be given as high a mark as it was possible to give....the dog would be "mentioned in despatches" when the judges consulted their books at the end of a trial.

I never achieved a 5th dog down eyewipe , it was a very rare thing . Most times the judges would decide that 3 dogs tried on a bird were enough for it would be possible to empty out an entire trial very quickly if every dog was sent to try to find a lost bird.
Bill T.

More often especially in a novice it's 2 dogs and if the second dog also fails to find,then the judges go look for the bird. If the bird is found by the judges ,both dogs are Out!.If the judges fail to find the bird then both dogs are still In !

'Eyewipe' is by far the best and most accomplished way to separate the dogs who have 'Game scent' and Game finding ability along with the handler to direct the dog to the ''fall'' !....A 9 dog eyewipe was achieved this weekend in a 16 dog novice stake making it a No brainer and the judges redundant on who wins . The 9 dogs eyewiped were on different retrieves!
Mind you, the winner had good training and obviously had it's head on the job ,with a little help from a couple of American friends

[Trekmoor]

More often especially in a novice it's 2 dogs and if the second dog also fails to find,then the judges go look for the bird. If the bird is found by the judges ,both dogs are Out!.If the judges fail to find the bird then both dogs are still In !

I think it is the case that if the judges failed to find a bird that was definitely shot both dogs could still be "in" but only if the lapse in time between the bird falling and the first dog being sent was deemed to be long enough to make it the equivalent of a second dog down retrieve. If the first dog was sent almost at once I think the judges would eliminate the first dog even if they did not find the bird. That's how it used to be anyway and I didn't think that had changed ? Judges are not expected to find runners and the bird might have ran , the first dog sent should have got it.

Bill T.

[birdshot]

Looking at the British Field trial forum I see there are a few British style clubs in the south, though membership appears to be small. I don't see it as a replacement for the AKC retriever trials but more of a welcome addition, as a dog game which could encourage more owners get involved with their dog. Maybe some day some of the dogs will be up to the Bills standards.

[polmaise]

I think it is the case that if the judges failed to find a bird that was definitely shot both dogs could still be "in" but only if the lapse in time between the bird falling and the first dog being sent was deemed to be long enough to make it the equivalent of a second dog down retrieve. If the first dog was sent almost at once I think the judges would eliminate the first dog even if they did not find the bird. That's how it used to be anyway and I didn't think that had changed ? Judges are not expected to find runners and the bird might have ran , the first dog sent should have got it.

Bill T.

I Definitely know one thing! When the dog gets the bird it's in

[gundogguy]

If you include the British Field Trial Society of America trials as American field trials, an eye wipe is possible. There seems to be a lot of interest in these competitions. http://WWW.britishfieldtrialsociety.com

$75 AND $100 Entry fee's? Must wear certain style clothe's? They seem to be pretty proud of themselves.

DonF I only wished Springer trials were at that level 125.00 is fairly much the market. And those rate will be increasing as judges transportation and Pheasant prices keep on rising And we have to abide by a certain dress code and some of it has to be blaze orange!
I know I have quite a collection of ties and sport coats that go well with the look. I'm not a bowler man but a English slouch has keep my head warm for many years.

[birdshot]

Being able to recycle the birds helps keep the cost down. Unfortunately not option in spaniels trials.