what am i missing?

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Kstring
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what am i missing?

Post by Kstring » Mon Oct 20, 2014 4:56 pm

i posted on here a few times after i joined last winter...when i started hunting my GSP pup. i have zero background in bird dogs but my father-in-law had raised pointers for years until the quail population in this area got so bad. i am getting all my training and hunting advice from him, and so far it has worked out perfectly. the strange thing is that his advice is absolutely nothing like what i read on here. he has basically told me one thing..."hunt him". and so far that has worked...but what am i missing??

just some info on the dog: he'll be 2 in december. his first hunt was last january and i hunted him as much as possible through the end of the season, this is all on released birds since wild quail are few and far between down here. this summer i steadied him up with "whoa" training but other than that he's just a regular dog with an unreal desire to hunt. i also use him to blood trail deer, which he loves to do. so far this has not affected him on birds...he's on a leash when trailing deer. i have no desire to do field trials but i do like to watch them on TV when i can...and when hunting he looks exactly like what i'm seeing at these trials.

so my concern is am i missing anything that will hurt him later on as i try to get him on as many wild birds as possible around here and possibly make some trips west in the future?? again i have no desire to do field trials, just a huntin partner that helps put some meat on the table. i know that if he works for me that's good enough but i don't want to be hurting him now and have him pay for it later.

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Sharon
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Re: what am i missing?

Post by Sharon » Mon Oct 20, 2014 5:06 pm

Kstring wrote:i posted on here a few times after i joined last winter...when i started hunting my GSP pup. i have zero background in bird dogs but my father-in-law had raised pointers for years until the quail population in this area got so bad. i am getting all my training and hunting advice from him, and so far it has worked out perfectly. the strange thing is that his advice is absolutely nothing like what i read on here. he has basically told me one thing..."hunt him". and so far that has worked...but what am i missing??

just some info on the dog: he'll be 2 in december. his first hunt was last january and i hunted him as much as possible through the end of the season, this is all on released birds since wild quail are few and far between down here. this summer i steadied him up with "whoa" training but other than that he's just a regular dog with an unreal desire to hunt. i also use him to blood trail deer, which he loves to do. so far this has not affected him on birds...he's on a leash when trailing deer. i have no desire to do field trials but i do like to watch them on TV when i can...and when hunting he looks exactly like what i'm seeing at these trials.

so my concern is am i missing anything that will hurt him later on as i try to get him on as many wild birds as possible around here and possibly make some trips west in the future?? again i have no desire to do field trials, just a huntin partner that helps put some meat on the table. i know that if he works for me that's good enough but i don't want to be hurting him now and have him pay for it later.
I don't see how this is different on what's normally recommended on here.. maybe I'm missing something. :)
Can you be more specific on what has been said that you haven't done? Birds definitely teach most of the lessons needed. Maybe you are saying you have let birds teach ALL of the lessons needed?
" We are more than our gender, skin color, class, sexuality or age; we are unlimited potential, and can not be defined by one label." quote A. Bartlett

Kstring
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Re: what am i missing?

Post by Kstring » Mon Oct 20, 2014 5:45 pm

Sharon wrote:
Kstring wrote:i posted on here a few times after i joined last winter...when i started hunting my GSP pup. i have zero background in bird dogs but my father-in-law had raised pointers for years until the quail population in this area got so bad. i am getting all my training and hunting advice from him, and so far it has worked out perfectly. the strange thing is that his advice is absolutely nothing like what i read on here. he has basically told me one thing..."hunt him". and so far that has worked...but what am i missing??

just some info on the dog: he'll be 2 in december. his first hunt was last january and i hunted him as much as possible through the end of the season, this is all on released birds since wild quail are few and far between down here. this summer i steadied him up with "whoa" training but other than that he's just a regular dog with an unreal desire to hunt. i also use him to blood trail deer, which he loves to do. so far this has not affected him on birds...he's on a leash when trailing deer. i have no desire to do field trials but i do like to watch them on TV when i can...and when hunting he looks exactly like what i'm seeing at these trials.

so my concern is am i missing anything that will hurt him later on as i try to get him on as many wild birds as possible around here and possibly make some trips west in the future?? again i have no desire to do field trials, just a huntin partner that helps put some meat on the table. i know that if he works for me that's good enough but i don't want to be hurting him now and have him pay for it later.
I don't see how this is different on what's normally recommended on here.. maybe I'm missing something. :)
Can you be more specific on what has been said that you haven't done? Birds definitely teach most of the lessons needed. Maybe you are saying you have let birds teach ALL of the lessons needed?
I have read and seen on training videos some things that I haven't done. I'm sure not everyone does every training method, and since in outta the loop on bird dog knowledge it all seems to run together for me. A few examples tho: I've never "introduced" my dog to birds...we just went Huntin. I've never had him on a check cord in the field. I've never had a bird launcher to help the training.

I don't want this to seem like a "hey look at me I never trained my dog and he's perfect" type of post cuz that's not the case. I've done some yard training and by no means is he perfect; but he is more than serviceable based on what I've seen at this point. I just want to make sure his lack of formal by the book training won't come back to bite him later on.

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DonF
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Re: what am i missing?

Post by DonF » Mon Oct 20, 2014 6:43 pm

I think what your seeing is a difference between those that train by setting up situation's for the dog to learn in as apposed to those that simply take the dog hunting. For myself I prefer to set up situation's I can control on birds I know will be there when I get there. The other way let's the bird teach the dog, if you can find the bird! I can put my dog's on as many birds a day as I choose and controlling the situation I think training move's along at a better pace. Situation's the dog might have trouble with i can set up. The draw back is once I go to wild birds, the dog pretty much starts over but, The dog move's through it very fast. It know's what you expect and if you set up your situation's properly, the dog know's what to do if it bump's a bird depending on what you want the dog to do. Nothing wrong with what your doing, it should work. I say should as I've never trained dogs on wild birds, I've never lived anywhere there was suitable bird's to do so with, very few people do. It sound's like you don't either, you mentioned your quail population is very low. Bad part about pen raised birds is that your dog is going to catch some on the ground. Other's will fly off but sometime's not far enough and the dog is on it. What do you suppose those things teach the dog? For the vast majority of dog people in this country, the days of sufficient wild birds to train on, is long past. Keep in mind that to train a dog, it take's birds! A few every three or four days or longer, is not enough, it takes birds.
I pity the man that has never been loved by a dog!

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Donnytpburge
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Re: what am i missing?

Post by Donnytpburge » Mon Oct 20, 2014 7:43 pm

They naturally have the ability to hunt, point, and retrieve.
If your dog is doing that for you consistently then I believe e your not missing a thing. Have fun!

I do have two questions though.

How close is your dog usually getting to the bird before he locks up!

Has he ever caught a bird?

Thanks,

db

Kstring
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Re: what am i missing?

Post by Kstring » Mon Oct 20, 2014 8:01 pm

Donnytpburge wrote:They naturally have the ability to hunt, point, and retrieve.
If your dog is doing that for you consistently then I believe e your not missing a thing. Have fun!

I do have two questions though.

How close is your dog usually getting to the bird before he locks up!

Has he ever caught a bird?

Thanks,

db
Distance from bird depends. I've seen him point at around 15 yards on occasion. More common however he'll be around 10-20 ft. With the pen raised birds it's sometimes hard to pinpoint where the bird is because he's a little farther off and the bird won't get up til you just about step on them.

He has never caught a bird without pointing it...but once the bird flushes he will chase it down and catch it even if it hasn't been wounded. This has caused me some concern but I figure it won't be an option for him on wild birds. But this is the type thing I'm wondering about.

Pepper
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Re: what am i missing?

Post by Pepper » Mon Oct 20, 2014 8:21 pm

Kstring wrote:
Donnytpburge wrote:They naturally have the ability to hunt, point, and retrieve.
If your dog is doing that for you consistently then I believe e your not missing a thing. Have fun!

I do have two questions though.

How close is your dog usually getting to the bird before he locks up!

Has he ever caught a bird?

Thanks,

db
Distance from bird depends. I've seen him point at around 15 yards on occasion. More common however he'll be around 10-20 ft. With the pen raised birds it's sometimes hard to pinpoint where the bird is because he's a little farther off and the bird won't get up til you just about step on them.

He has never caught a bird without pointing it...but once the bird flushes he will chase it down and catch it even if it hasn't been wounded. This has caused me some concern but I figure it won't be an option for him on wild birds. But this is the type thing I'm wondering about.
Please be careful of this. Even with a flushing retriever we don't want the dog to take off like this. Dogs have been lost or hurt because of this. Continue with your whoa and steady drills. :)

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Sharon
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Re: what am i missing?

Post by Sharon » Mon Oct 20, 2014 8:38 pm

Now I am confused Kstring.
You said , " I hunted him as much as possible through the end of the season, this is all on released birds since wild quail are few and far between down here."[

and now you're saying: "I've never introduced my dogs to birds; just went hunting."

If you released birds, you introduced your dog to birds.
.............

"He has never caught a bird without pointing it...but once the bird flushes he will chase it down and catch it even if it hasn't been wounded. This has caused me some concern but I figure it won't be an option for him on wild birds." quote Kstring

I can assure you he will try the same thing with wild birds - not catch them - but you'll be lucky if you have a chance for a shot.
" We are more than our gender, skin color, class, sexuality or age; we are unlimited potential, and can not be defined by one label." quote A. Bartlett

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Fran Seagren
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Re: what am i missing?

Post by Fran Seagren » Mon Oct 20, 2014 11:09 pm

Sharon wrote:Now I am confused Kstring.
You said , " I hunted him as much as possible through the end of the season, this is all on released birds since wild quail are few and far between down here."[

and now you're saying: "I've never introduced my dogs to birds; just went hunting."

If you released birds, you introduced your dog to birds.
.............

"He has never caught a bird without pointing it...but once the bird flushes he will chase it down and catch it even if it hasn't been wounded. This has caused me some concern but I figure it won't be an option for him on wild birds." quote Kstring

I can assure you he will try the same thing with wild birds - not catch them - but you'll be lucky if you have a chance for a shot.
I want to second the statement above, "I can assure you he will try the same thing with wild birds." I also want to add a couple things I learned with my first hunting dog 25 years ago.

If the "stop to the flush" or "steady to wing" in either retrievers or pointing dogs isn't rock solid, or they don't come when called every time, or you aren't using a check cord, when they get on wild birds, things change. If the bird isn't shot, your dog could easily chase it out of sight. It's pretty scary when your dog just keeps going, going, and is gone. Won't stop no matter how much you call, whistle, or scream. I was lucky that first time and I learned something important. :)

Soarer31
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Re: what am i missing?

Post by Soarer31 » Tue Oct 21, 2014 2:48 am

Your the best judge on what your missing mate!
You watched on TV, you been on the net , so tell us ...what your missing?

I can tell you one thing though.... You won't know what your missing till you are on the real Mc Coy ( WILD BIRDS)
Cheers

Kstring
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Re: what am i missing?

Post by Kstring » Tue Oct 21, 2014 5:46 am

Sharon wrote:Now I am confused Kstring.
You said , " I hunted him as much as possible through the end of the season, this is all on released birds since wild quail are few and far between down here."[

and now you're saying: "I've never introduced my dogs to birds; just went hunting."

If you released birds, you introduced your dog to birds.
.............

"He has never caught a bird without pointing it...but once the bird flushes he will chase it down and catch it even if it hasn't been wounded. This has caused me some concern but I figure it won't be an option for him on wild birds." quote Kstring

I can assure you he will try the same thing with wild birds - not catch them - but you'll be lucky if you have a chance for a shot.
Just another example of my lack of bird dog knowledge. In my mind "introducing a bird" would be putting one in front of a pup to get him excited and see what he'll do. I've never done that. What he has done is hunted released birds. If that is considered the same thing then that's my fault for not understanding.

I know where there are a couple wild coveys I can get him on, but down here the whitetail is king so landowners don't want a pointing dog on there place til after deer season...which means not until February in most cases. Until then I'll just do what I can with what I've got.

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ROTTnBRITT
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Re: what am i missing?

Post by ROTTnBRITT » Tue Oct 21, 2014 6:50 am

Sounds like you dog has had a really good introduction to hunting and is doing what he was bred to do. The formal training will teach your dog what you want him or not want him to do. (Recall, whoa, Pointing to close, ripping birds, chasing birds, etc....)

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Re: what am i missing?

Post by RayGubernat » Tue Oct 21, 2014 7:36 am

Kstring -

I think you are doing fine with your dog, based on what you have said.
IMO there is very little reason to have a dog steady to wing, shot and fall if it is to be a personal hunting dog.

There are situations where you would not want your dog to chase, due to safety concerns, and situations where you would not want a dog to chase due to unintended flushes of sitting birds.

Those can be handled with a rock solid whoa and a rock solid recall. When you holler stop or whoa or stand...the dog should stop and grow roots. When you call the dog to come or her the dog should turn and come...instantly. If it is not doing that...you have more training to do. You want to get those two obedience commands as close to perfect as you can without coming down too hard on the dog.

Other than that, you can just let the dog hunt and if you follow him along, and watch...you will both learn. The one thing you need to insist on in the field is that the dog be "honest". By that I mean the dog must find game, point it...and wait for you to get there. It must ALWAYS be Your job to flush the bird. The dog must ALWAYS wait for you to get there, NO MATTER HOW LONG THAT TAKES...then must stand for you to walk in front and flush. If it does not, you will wind up with a long range flusher and that is pretty useless.

A good deal of the confusion you are perceiving might just be semantics. Some of the confusion may be due to the fact that many folks work toward a dog that is steady to wing, shot and fall, which is a very worthwhile goal if you plan on competing with your dog.

DonF said it well. I also prefer to set up situations because the training will go smoother and faster. My mantra has always been: "Plan your work...and then go out and work your plan."

If you think about what it is you are trying to accomplish, you will begin to see when and why it would be useful to have a trailing checkcord on a dog, or know exactly where a bird was planted and things like that. Think about what you want to do with your dog nd then think about how you will be able to help your dog bet there.

But most of all, have fun with your dog and make sure he his having fun with you.

RayG

Pepper
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Re: what am i missing?

Post by Pepper » Tue Oct 21, 2014 6:39 pm

RayGubernat wrote:Kstring -

I think you are doing fine with your dog, based on what you have said.
IMO there is very little reason to have a dog steady to wing, shot and fall if it is to be a personal hunting dog.

There are situations where you would not want your dog to chase, due to safety concerns, and situations where you would not want a dog to chase due to unintended flushes of sitting birds.

Those can be handled with a rock solid whoa and a rock solid recall. When you holler stop or whoa or stand...the dog should stop and grow roots. When you call the dog to come or her the dog should turn and come...instantly. If it is not doing that...you have more training to do. You want to get those two obedience commands as close to perfect as you can without coming down too hard on the dog.

Other than that, you can just let the dog hunt and if you follow him along, and watch...you will both learn. The one thing you need to insist on in the field is that the dog be "honest". By that I mean the dog must find game, point it...and wait for you to get there. It must ALWAYS be Your job to flush the bird. The dog must ALWAYS wait for you to get there, NO MATTER HOW LONG THAT TAKES...then must stand for you to walk in front and flush. If it does not, you will wind up with a long range flusher and that is pretty useless.

A good deal of the confusion you are perceiving might just be semantics. Some of the confusion may be due to the fact that many folks work toward a dog that is steady to wing, shot and fall, which is a very worthwhile goal if you plan on competing with your dog.

DonF said it well. I also prefer to set up situations because the training will go smoother and faster. My mantra has always been: "Plan your work...and then go out and work your plan."

If you think about what it is you are trying to accomplish, you will begin to see when and why it would be useful to have a trailing checkcord on a dog, or know exactly where a bird was planted and things like that. Think about what you want to do with your dog nd then think about how you will be able to help your dog bet there.

But most of all, have fun with your dog and make sure he his having fun with you.

RayG
Excellent post/ 8)

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Donnytpburge
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Re: what am i missing?

Post by Donnytpburge » Wed Oct 22, 2014 5:06 am

If your happy with your dog, then keep hunting.

If you want to fix the is bumping, and chasing then get a launcher, put a check chord on him and be in control.
Let him point the bird in the launcher, and as soon as he moves launch the bird and let it go. Don't shoot a bumped bird.
Once he starts respecting the scent cone then soot only the birds that he points PERFECT.

This takes time, so do not hunt him until he gets it right.
Db

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Re: what am i missing?

Post by Trekmoor » Wed Oct 22, 2014 5:16 am

It sounds to me as if both the handler and the dog are doing fine with one exception. Chasing after flushed birds just is not safe for a dog. I'd train the dog very thoroughly not to do that and would probably add that the dog must not run in to shot and fall too.

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birddogger
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Re: what am i missing?

Post by birddogger » Wed Oct 22, 2014 4:32 pm

The one thing that I would advise to keep in mind is that the only person the dog has to please is you. :wink:

Charlie
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hettmoe
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Re: what am i missing?

Post by hettmoe » Thu Oct 23, 2014 5:39 am

Just go out with your dog and enjoy each other :D

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oldbeek
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Re: what am i missing?

Post by oldbeek » Fri Oct 24, 2014 6:16 pm

You may not want to do field trialing. Have you looked into NSTRA? It is similar to hunting.

Kstring
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Re: what am i missing?

Post by Kstring » Sun Oct 26, 2014 7:15 pm

oldbeek wrote:You may not want to do field trialing. Have you looked into NSTRA? It is similar to hunting.
I have no desire to compete with the dog...just would like to find a few wild birds around and make a trip or two west every year or so. That said, when I do watch field trials on tv the dogs do the same things he does for the most part.

Down here he gets way more work on blood trailing deer, which he's exceptional at, but he is 100% geared to be a bird dog and I love watching him do what he's bred to do as much a possible.

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