Steady to Flush - Why is it ok

[RgrDraht]

So here is the question...

All I've read over and over is you do NOT use the Command Whoa with birds. Whoa is an obedience command

Sit is also an Obedience command

So my question is why is it ok to teach a Retriever Steady to Flush by using the "SIT" command but not OK to use the "WHOA" Command when teaching a Pointing Dog steady to Flush?

Don't shoot me over it, just asking a question that popped up in my head.

[ROTTnBRITT]

I think alot of people use whoa when a dog is on point.
But it is used as a command to keep the dog from moving after already establishing point on its own from smelling the bird.

What you don't want to do is whoa the dog to get it to point. The dog needs to figure that out on its own.

When teaching steady to flush I don't say anything. I use the checkcord and/or ecollar. After it is learned then I will sometimes say whoa or use a hand signal. Which have been taught in the yard.

I guess I really didn't answer your question

[RoostersMom]

I teach WHOA the Perfection Kennel way - totally away from birds at first and then adding birds to proof the dog's understanding of the command. You can use "whoa" to get a dog to back another dog if need be. You can use whoa to keep a dog from chasing the bird and to keep him steady through the shot and fall. But you need to teach it separate from the birds and you don't want to WHOA your dog INTO a point. He should establish the point on his own and after that is when you can reinforce the standing steady command (whoa) if he starts to move once you flush the bird or shoot.

I love the whoa breaking process using tons of pigeons, it is a lot of fun -for me and for the dog!

[gonehuntin']

It is detrimental to use whoa to STOP a dog from creeping on birds, once the birds are in the air it's fine to use it to stop him from CHASING The birds. Can you see the difference?

[gundogguy]

So here is the question...

All I've read over and over is you do NOT use the Command Whoa with birds. Whoa is an obedience command

Sit is also an Obedience command

So my question is why is it ok to teach a Retriever Steady to Flush by using the "SIT" command but not OK to use the "WHOA" Command when teaching a Pointing Dog steady to Flush?

Don't shoot me over it, just asking a question that popped up in my head.

Retriever training is obedience training " Long distance precision obedience".
Bird dog training is about developing the dogs natural questing abilities, bird finding, to come to the surface, in a package that we can live with.
The elements of prey drive are present in both venues, however they are developed and managed quite differently from each other.
It is the rare individual that can operate and flourish in both world's

[welsh]

I think the simple answer is that these are actually two completely different training situations.

A pointing dog has an instinct to stop and point, and you want the dog to use that instinct, so you are not going to tell it to stop.

A flushing dog has no natural instinct to sit to the flush. Its instinct is to carry on trying to catch the bird. You have to tell it that you want it to do something completely different.

[Neil]

If I did not use whoa around birds, I would have no need for the command. I use the whoa barrel, then the Buddy Stick, then the e-collar. Whoa means stop, pssst stand tall.

[RgrDraht]

I am so glad I started this thread, you guys have really opened my eyes now!

Thank you SO Much!

This entire dang time I've been thinking I can't use the word Whoa around birds with my Dog. He is VERY Good at the command, If I say Whoa, he stops on a dime and lets me walk all around him and I can jump up and down, kick around him do anything and he won't move.

So, you're telling me if he points on his own, I can use the command Whoa to steady him up so I can move in to flush the bird?

[shags]

IMO it comes into play especially well when you're faced with an extended or tricky flushing situation - heavy thorny cover, fences, stuff like that. I don't want my dog charging in on me. I prefer to use a quiet command though, and not go screaming WHOA! when the dog is already standing nice. Shows more class in the dog and its training, and trust on my part. Also then the dog isn't slinging his head and otherwise letting down worrying why I'm mad

[aulrich]

I think the answer to that is yes and no.

It is safe to say the gold standard for steady is to be able to walk in, flush the bird and the dog goes when you desire it (on flush, shot or release depending on your style), no command given unless steady to fall. I only have experience with the perfection kennel way and they use it all the way through until the end where you take the green broke dog and through repetition get to that gold standard.

I have no experience with a non-verbal system but it strikes me that non verbal systems have a different learning curve early gains are harder and maybe require higher pressure (that spinning the dog move comes to mind from Mo’s book) but going from green broke to gold standard is easier/shorter.

I could not tell you which is more efficient in total duration from untrained to gold standard

But since you have whoa down, I would say get yourself a copy of "The Perfect Finish" and go with it. And in the mean time get your pigeon loft going if you have not already.

[RgrDraht]

I must look this perfection kennel up, I've seen it a few times already in this thread.

[RgrDraht]

Just purchased the Perfect Finish DVD, thanks guys

[ROTTnBRITT]

He is VERY Good at the command, If I say Whoa, he stops on a dime and lets me walk all around him and I can jump up and down, kick around him do anything and he won't move.

So, you're telling me if he points on his own, I can use the command Whoa to steady him up so I can move in to flush the bird?

Sure. But unless he has been proofed on birds flushing in front of him, don't be surprised if he breaks and gives chase.

[gonehuntin']

I am so glad I started this thread, you guys have really opened my eyes now!

Thank you SO Much!

This entire dang time I've been thinking I can't use the word Whoa around birds with my Dog. He is VERY Good at the command, If I say Whoa, he stops on a dime and lets me walk all around him and I can jump up and down, kick around him do anything and he won't move.

So, you're telling me if he points on his own, I can use the command Whoa to steady him up so I can move in to flush the bird?

No. If he moves on his own, pop the bird and put him back. Once you PASS him and are flushing, if he moves you can then harshly give him a verbal whoa.

[polmaise]

Why would you give him a 'harshly' whoa if whoa is already learned?..Is the Harsh one an extension of the first whoa? Or a confirmation of whoa-whoa?

[aksportsman]

Alright guys, I am new to the forum and currently training my first gun dog, an 8 month old Brittany. After reading this thread Im concerned Ive been destroying her with the 'whoa' command. I have been using live pigeons and working with her frequently. I must confess though, out of ignorance I've been commanding 'whoa!' when spots, runs and gets close to a bird in yard work. How much trouble have I made myself and what do I do now?

She hits a natural point on most birds planted in tall grass without the point but this week she ran right through 2/4 in a field and gave chase. At the time I chalked it up to a lack of a sent trail, and a young dog with no wind...

If you could please give me much needed advice!

[Neil]

Alright guys, I am new to the forum and currently training my first gun dog, an 8 month old Brittany. After reading this thread Im concerned Ive been destroying her with the 'whoa' command. I have been using live pigeons and working with her frequently. I must confess though, out of ignorance I've been commanding 'whoa!' when spots, runs and gets close to a bird in yard work. How much trouble have I made myself and what do I do now?

She hits a natural point on most birds planted in tall grass without the point but this week she ran right through 2/4 in a field and gave chase. At the time I chalked it up to a lack of a sent trail, and a young dog with no wind...

If you could please give me much needed advice!

You sure haven't destroyed her, she is young and will adapt.

I think you need more help than we can give you here, there are a lot of good programs that work. Pick one, get a tape or book, or better attend a seminar, and enjoy your dog. Not much you can do that can't be fixed.

[RoostersMom]

You only use the word WHEN THE DOG BREAKS. Not as a "preventative measure" for "just in case she might not stand." I wouldn't use the command until the dog starts to move, then you give the command for the behavior you want her to exhibit. I won't use "sit" for a dog that is already sitting, just like I won't use whoa for a dog that is already standing staunch to get them not to rush in. They are standing - you don't correct them (verbally or with the collar) until they are not standing anymore. You never want to WHOA them into a point, it will cause all kinds of issues with them loosing intensity and potentially loosing desire - much less ruining their confidence.

[aksportsman]

Thank you for your responses, I greatly appreciate the tips and advice. I am a little worried that she has lost some of that natural point due to me commanding 'whoa' when she approached or sometimes seemed to try and flush a bird. Thankfully she is bird OBSESSED so the intensity is absolutely still there. Do you have any basic training tips or advice to bolster her natural point on both bird sent and sight? Thank you.

[Neil]

Get on a program and follow it.

[Brazosvalleyvizslas]

I always give a re-assuring WAIT command as I pass a dog on point to let them know its me and only positive things are about to happen. I don't wait for them to break because by then its too late and my race is over.