pup pointing to far off

smittty
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pup pointing to far off

Post by smittty » Sun Aug 31, 2014 3:07 pm

I have a pup with an exceptional nose he is just over a year old he is very steady to flush anyhows..but most of his points are 40 plus yards from the bird ...I want to start to work him on steady to wing and shot but I would like to fix this first should I let him figure it out for himself that he is pointing to far off???? or work on releasing and relocating him???? or something else perhaps

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Re: pup pointing to far off

Post by Sharon » Sun Aug 31, 2014 3:12 pm

What breed is your dog - just for interests sake ?
I don't consider 40 yards too far off for my setters. Common for them to point a 100 ++ yard off. If they hold the bird till I get there what does it matter how far off? Anything much less than 40 yards ,and I might as well boot the bird up myself. :)
I don't think there is anything to fix.
,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,

" or work on releasing and relocating him????" quote

If the bird is moving out ( pheasant), I want my dog to relocate himself .( Except in a trial where for some bizzare reason he is not allowed to locate on his own.)
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Re: pup pointing to far off

Post by smittty » Sun Aug 31, 2014 3:32 pm

Sharon wrote:What breed is your dog - just for interests sake ?
I don't consider 40 yards too far off for my setters. Common for them to point a 100 ++ yard off. If they hold the bird till I get there what does it matter how far off? Anything much less than 40 yards ,and I might as well boot the bird up myself. :)
I don't think there is anything to fix.
,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,

" or work on releasing and relocating him????" quote

If the bird is moving out ( pheasant), I want my dog to relocate himself .( Except in a trial where for some bizzare reason he is not allowed to locate on his own.)
I am sorry Sharon you misunderstood I don't have a problem with him pointing 100+ yards out.. what I am having a problem with is that he is scenting and locking up farther from the bird then what I like.. or what am used to

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Re: pup pointing to far off

Post by mask » Sun Aug 31, 2014 3:47 pm

I don't know what kind of birds you are hunting but for the hunting I do 40 yds. is not to far. Most chukar hunters would kill for a dog with that kind of potential and manners. I would not be to quick to fix something that may not be broken. + 1 Sharon.

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Re: pup pointing to far off

Post by gonehuntin' » Sun Aug 31, 2014 4:23 pm

You're one lucky guy!!! :lol: It won't last. :?
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Re: pup pointing to far off

Post by Sharon » Sun Aug 31, 2014 4:53 pm

[quote="smittty
I am sorry Sharon you misunderstood I don't have a problem with him pointing 100+ yards out.. what I am having a problem with is that he is scenting and locking up farther from the bird then what I like.. or what am used to[/quote]Smitty

,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,
Not sure what you are hunting , but grouse, woodcock , pheasant up here can not be crowded. People would be thrilled to have a dog that pointed far enough from the bird to not have it flush wild. EXceptional young dog that has learned that already.Takes most dogs a whole hunting season or two to learn that.
.............

Just interested in what kind of dog and what you hunted before to make you "not used to a dog pointing that far from the bird."
Last edited by Sharon on Sun Aug 31, 2014 8:19 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: pup pointing to far off

Post by Brazosvalleyvizslas » Sun Aug 31, 2014 5:17 pm

Just let him keep doing what he is doing. To me there is no distance that is too far but I also would like to know the breed and what type of birds? Planted, Wild?

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Re: pup pointing to far off

Post by smittty » Sun Aug 31, 2014 5:28 pm

setter... both planted and wild if there is any wind he is locking up over 50 yrds... I am not used to that my other setter don't even get scent on a good scenting day till he is inside 20 to 30 yards

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Re: pup pointing to far off

Post by Trekmoor » Sun Aug 31, 2014 5:59 pm

Are the birds you are hunting exceptionally "jumpy ?" If birds habitually fly off as a dog approaches perhaps the dog has been taught greater caution by the birds themselves ? I noticed years ago that when my dogs pointed grouse near the start of the shooting season most of the points were fairly close ....maybe 5 to 15 yards but as the season progressed and the birds became nervous enough to fly off if closely approached my dogs would begin to point them from further and further back.
Has anything like this happened with your dog ?
I don't think I would do anything to change the way your dog is working.

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Re: pup pointing to far off

Post by mnaj_springer » Sun Aug 31, 2014 5:59 pm

Gee... I like my spaniels but if I found a pointer with a nose like that, I may go to the Dark Side
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Re: pup pointing to far off

Post by Trekmoor » Sun Aug 31, 2014 6:13 pm

Just had a thought ..... I command my dogs to make the flush following the point. My dogs road in to more distant birds as I keep up with them. If you do things in the American way of flushing the birds yourself then I can see why a dog pointing 40 -50 yards back from the birds could make things a bit difficult . I'm not sure how well that works as I have never done it.

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Re: pup pointing to far off

Post by birddogger » Sun Aug 31, 2014 6:32 pm

I guess I must be in the minority. I don't want my dogs pointing that far away either. I don't mind them locking up at first scent if they will relocate as Sharon said or if I can command them to carefully relocate. But I don't want to be trapsing all over the place trying to find the birds. That is the dog's job, at least for me.

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Re: pup pointing to far off

Post by Sharon » Sun Aug 31, 2014 6:53 pm

smittty wrote:setter... both planted and wild if there is any wind he is locking up over 50 yrds... I am not used to that my other setter don't even get scent on a good scenting day till he is inside 20 to 30 yards
I don't usually post this often in one thread but ------------you've got yourself an exceptional setter that you're not used to. I'll take him off your hands anytime. :)
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Re: pup pointing to far off

Post by rinker » Sun Aug 31, 2014 7:06 pm

That dog is worthless and can not be fixed. Send him to me and get yourself another one.

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Re: pup pointing to far off

Post by gonehuntin' » Sun Aug 31, 2014 7:34 pm

birddogger wrote:I guess I must be in the minority. I don't want my dogs pointing that far away either. I don't mind them locking up at first scent if they will relocate as Sharon said or if I can command them to carefully relocate. But I don't want to be trapsing all over the place trying to find the birds. That is the dog's job, at least for me.

Charlie
Boy, do I agree with that Charlie. I think the harder they push them, the tighter they sit. I want thT bird within 10-15 yards of the dog or to me, it partially negates the advantage of a pointing dog. It's my feeling that this dog will learn to point the bird's closer unless the handler has been very unyielding in making the dog stop at first scent.
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Re: pup pointing to far off

Post by mnaj_springer » Sun Aug 31, 2014 8:00 pm

Gonehuntin'... Correct me if I'm wrong, but the bird holds the dog, not the dog holding the bird... Right?
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Re: pup pointing to far off

Post by ezzy333 » Sun Aug 31, 2014 8:20 pm

mnaj_springer wrote:Gonehuntin'... Correct me if I'm wrong, but the bird holds the dog, not the dog holding the bird... Right?
Not in my experience
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Re: pup pointing to far off

Post by Sharon » Sun Aug 31, 2014 8:22 pm

gonehuntin' wrote:
birddogger wrote:I guess I must be in the minority. I don't want my dogs pointing that far away either. I don't mind them locking up at first scent if they will relocate as Sharon said or if I can command them to carefully relocate. But I don't want to be trapsing all over the place trying to find the birds. That is the dog's job, at least for me.

Charlie
Boy, do I agree with that Charlie. I think the harder they push them, the tighter they sit. I want thT bird within 10-15 yards of the dog or to me, it partially negates the advantage of a pointing dog. It's my feeling that this dog will learn to point the bird's closer unless the handler has been very unyielding in making the dog stop at first scent.
Is someone posting under your name? :) " I think the harder they push them, the tighter they sit." quote . Not for any woodcock or grouse up here.
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Re: pup pointing to far off

Post by mnaj_springer » Sun Aug 31, 2014 8:33 pm

ezzy333 wrote:
mnaj_springer wrote:Gonehuntin'... Correct me if I'm wrong, but the bird holds the dog, not the dog holding the bird... Right?
Not in my experience
So if a dog is on point the bird has no option but to hold tight? What happens if the bird (oh let's say a Wiley rooster) takes off running?

I'm just saying the bird's behavior dictates the dog's behavior.
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Re: pup pointing to far off

Post by mask » Sun Aug 31, 2014 10:16 pm

It depends on what you are hunting. I prefer my dogs to err on the side of caution and I don't mind walking 40 yds. or more to flush birds. All in ones notion I guess, that's what the old lady said when she kissed the cow. :D

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Re: pup pointing to far off

Post by gonehuntin' » Mon Sep 01, 2014 5:52 am

Sharon wrote:
gonehuntin' wrote:
birddogger wrote:I guess I must be in the minority. I don't want my dogs pointing that far away either. I don't mind them locking up at first scent if they will relocate as Sharon said or if I can command them to carefully relocate. But I don't want to be trapsing all over the place trying to find the birds. That is the dog's job, at least for me.

Charlie
Boy, do I agree with that Charlie. I think the harder they push them, the tighter they sit. I want thT bird within 10-15 yards of the dog or to me, it partially negates the advantage of a pointing dog. It's my feeling that this dog will learn to point the bird's closer unless the handler has been very unyielding in making the dog stop at first scent.
Is someone posting under your name? :) " I think the harder they push them, the tighter they sit." quote . Not for any woodcock or grouse up here.
Sharon, I was speaking more of prairie birds where when the dog comes in fast and hard, they freeze. For grouse, it's true that with too much pressure they move. Still, a grouse walks right away from a dog so you need one, IMO, that stays cautiously on the bird. If I had a dog that pointed grouse at 40 yards, I'd shoot precious few birds. I'd either never find them or they'd go unseen from me crashing through the brush. Around us, woodcock hold tighter than a tick so it doesn't make much difference.
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Re: pup pointing to far off

Post by gonehuntin' » Mon Sep 01, 2014 6:01 am

mnaj_springer wrote:Gonehuntin'... Correct me if I'm wrong, but the bird holds the dog, not the dog holding the bird... Right?
I think that if you let them, the dog learns how close to point the bird, what the dog can get away with. If he hits first scent and it isn't real strong, he learns to creep in until the scent is "hotter"; by doing so the bird is there when you get there and not 100 yards away. I want the dog to move when the bird does.

I don't know how many times when the dog would point at first scent, I'd walk in, never find the bird, and then have the dog relocate. I then thought, why not just let the dog do it the way HE thinks it should be done, rather than point and relocate?

Was a time I trained dogs to lock up at first and remain steady there until I found and flushed the bird. No more. I'm convinced I bill more birds by letting the dog point closer to the bird. That's what I've personally found, but everyone's experiences are different.
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Re: pup pointing to far off

Post by DonF » Mon Sep 01, 2014 1:26 pm

I don't believe for one sec the 100 yd point. What I do believe is that if the dog tries to point a bird 40 yds out, it can't hold the birds and the birds aren't to worried. So they simply walk away from the dog. A good pointing dog will hit a bird within 20 yds or closer, fast and hard. The birds will duck down to avoid the dog then stay down with a staunch dog. They are to close and I think they know it and fear of being caught keeps them hiding and not walking out. To often with covey birds, chukars, huns and quail, the dog comes on a covey spread out and probably a sentry bird. Most times those my well flush wild, problem being the birds either a bit to far away of the sentry bird leaving. Catch those covey birds closed up in heavy cover and a good dog will put them down and hold them, but not from 40 yds, most times not even 30 yds. Your dog is hitting at 40 yds and being to cautious, relocate it right into the bird. have the bird in a remote and the dog get's to about 10 yds, pop the bird. if the dog pussyfoots on the relocate, pop the bird sooner. You want to dog to put a rush on the bird and then a snap stop and staunch point. a bird well located will hold better for no other reason than the dog has it fairly close. I do that with pigeons and it works great. But keep in mind that the dog is going to have to relearn it on game birds, the wild bird will teach the dog, let it happen. You start interfering with the dog by stopping it to soon and it will have trouble holding birds. You'll be coming in and the birds will flush out farther than you'd like. Or you'll get there and they will have walked out. Then you follow up and they flush again to far out. The dog that has a bird or covey out 40+ yds cannot accurately locate the birds for you. Watch guy's in trials or training. If the dog really has the bird, they can walk right in and the bird goes right up. Small trick to that, don't walk past your dog to flush, come around the dog and try to trap the bird between you and the dog. You do that and the bird will flush 90% of the time when you get close to it, it has nowhere to run to. Particularly with chukar, get the bird up hill of the dog and don't get it trapped between you and the dog and it will run up the hill in front of you.

Your dog's job is not only to find the birds for you but hold them and accurately locate them for you. Your tramping around looking for the bird and with few exceptions, you and or your dog have not done your job. Relocate your dog into those training birds and pop them at about 10 yds. You will find that not to many times and if your dog is withing that ten yds, you won't be able to get it to relocate! teach your dog to handle the birds!
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Re: pup pointing to far off

Post by ezzy333 » Mon Sep 01, 2014 3:43 pm

Don, You explained it just like I have seen hundreds of times. Our good dogs learn to hold birds but they don't do it from a far. Fast approach makes them hunker down and a perfectly staunch point will keep them there more often than not.
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Re: pup pointing to far off

Post by mask » Mon Sep 01, 2014 3:55 pm

Some of you boys must not hunt wild, spooky huns or chukar. A dog coming in hard and fast would scatter birds from heck to breakfast 95% of the time. I want my dogs to relocate on their own but I don't want them doing it hard and fast. That is a blue print for disaster and there would go supper. It still must have something to do with the type of bird you are hunting.

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Re: pup pointing to far off

Post by mnaj_springer » Mon Sep 01, 2014 6:58 pm

DonF... I think the behavior of the birds is a bit regional. I used to chase Huns and sharp-tails in ND and it seemed that if there were a large covey they would flush 70-100 yards ahead of man or beast, but once you found them in pairs or singles they would hold longer....
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Re: pup pointing to far off

Post by ezzy333 » Mon Sep 01, 2014 7:34 pm

The secret with Huns is to follow them after they flush. Thy will sit tight for the second or third flush. But they sure are wild on the first flush.
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Re: pup pointing to far off

Post by DonF » Tue Sep 02, 2014 9:46 am

hard to do with chukar but with huns and quail breaking up the covey is the way to go. I think I pretty much live in chukar country and hunted them for 30 some years. A dog that try's sneaking up on them will have then run out most the time. A dog pointing them from down hill will have them run up. If your way works, great!
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Re: pup pointing to far off

Post by Elkhunter » Tue Sep 02, 2014 10:35 am

DonF I would have to disagree with just about everything you posted.... First off using planted birds/launchers to teach a dog to handle wild birds is foolish, why not just ACTUAL wild birds to teach a dog to point wild birds. What will a pigeon teach a dog that a wild chukar cannot??

If my dog is pointed and is intense and steady, he knows there are birds there. It does not matter if the birds are ten feet away or 50 yards away, if he knows they are there I DO NOT want him relocating/moving at all! That is how birds get bumped, from over zealous dogs trying to get too close.

My dogs point birds from 40+ yards consistently and we kill birds all the time, and I have had numerous points of 100+ yards and so have lots of other people. You probably recall you already commented on this topic a few months back and NUMEROUS wild bird hunters stated they have in fact shot many wild birds on points of that distance.

To the OP, dont do a thing. Keep hunting the dog, he has the nose and he knows what is going on. DONT plant pigeons and encourage your dog to relocate on a bird that he already knows is there, you will create tons of problems. Be grateful you have an honest dog.

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Re: pup pointing to far off

Post by Winchey » Tue Sep 02, 2014 11:09 am

+1 Charlie and GH.

I would much rather have the birds within 10 or 20 yards. Some dogs have a knack for consistently pinning spooky birds right off the end of their nose and I find it much more impressive then several relocations, although a snappy relocation right off the dogs nose is nice. I don't really enjoy relocating several times, or trying to flush in a 70 yard radius. I also don't enjoy watching handlers do it in our wild bird trials when conceivably the dog did not have the bird pinned, or worse yet was on an unproductive and the handler makes a ridiculous elongated flushing attempt or multiple relocates and finally produces a bird, especially up here where there are a lot of birds and at times if you flush long enough you are bound to flush something. It is a joke among the old timers at one of our grounds nobody ever had a UP, you just kept walking and something would go up.

I don't know anything about prairie birds, chucker or quail, just speaking for Grouse and WC. Not sure what you are hunting.
I have seen with pigeons some dogs will get wise to your regular planting locations and lock up on those spots from a long way off, whether they can smell them or not, I have seen them do it with a 30mph wind blowing up their "bleep". I have also seen young dogs lock up on spots they are used to finding wild birds whether there is a bird there or not, they aren't dumb, just take some experience to work it all out.

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Re: pup pointing to far off

Post by Elkhunter » Tue Sep 02, 2014 1:54 pm

mask wrote:Some of you boys must not hunt wild, spooky huns or chukar. A dog coming in hard and fast would scatter birds from heck to breakfast 95% of the time. I want my dogs to relocate on their own but I don't want them doing it hard and fast. That is a blue print for disaster and there would go supper. It still must have something to do with the type of bird you are hunting.
Too much common sense. You can have a hard charging fast pointing dog when your quarry is in a launcher...

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Re: pup pointing to far off

Post by mask » Tue Sep 02, 2014 6:46 pm

How do you cook a launcher and how do they taste? :lol:

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Re: pup pointing to far off

Post by mnaj_springer » Tue Sep 02, 2014 6:46 pm

This thread makes me happy to be a spaniel guy :D When my dogs find birds it's obvious since there's suddenly a bird flying where there was nothing before :)
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Re: pup pointing to far off

Post by gonehuntin' » Wed Sep 03, 2014 5:13 am

mask wrote: I want my dogs to relocate on their own but I don't want them doing it hard and fast. That is a blue print for disaster and there would go supper. It still must have something to do with the type of bird you are hunting.
Looks like you've never had a dog that circles to relocate.
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Re: pup pointing to far off

Post by cjhills » Wed Sep 03, 2014 6:24 am

I have never seen a dog point too far off. I like them to lock up on first scent and not move until I tell them to move. My best Hun dogs hunt covies hard and fast but slow down and almost sneak on the singles. Sharptails sometimes hold good and sometimes not, they usually do not run, we shoot more birds over the dog that does not push to hard. Pheasants are a whole different ballgame. I still do not believe the dog holding the bird theory or pinning the bird. If the bird thinks he is safer to stay hidden he does, if not he runs or flies. I also can't quite see the circling the bird thing on a rooster that can out run the dog.
If I had the OP's pup I would be very happy with him and get him on the most wild birds I could. I certainly would not try to shorten up his point.
Our best dogs poit hard and fast at first scent and hold until we get there. No gimmics or tricks if the bird runs so be it, we will send the dog and he will likely point again or the bird lives to hunt another day and breed more runners.
Good luck with your pup, he sounds great to me, let him do his thing and don't be intimidated you will learn to love it..............Cj

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Re: pup pointing to far off

Post by DonF » Wed Sep 03, 2014 9:15 am

Elkhunter wrote:DonF I would have to disagree with just about everything you posted.... First off using planted birds/launchers to teach a dog to handle wild birds is foolish, why not just ACTUAL wild birds to teach a dog to point wild birds. What will a pigeon teach a dog that a wild chukar cannot??

If my dog is pointed and is intense and steady, he knows there are birds there. It does not matter if the birds are ten feet away or 50 yards away, if he knows they are there I DO NOT want him relocating/moving at all! That is how birds get bumped, from over zealous dogs trying to get too close.

My dogs point birds from 40+ yards consistently and we kill birds all the time, and I have had numerous points of 100+ yards and so have lots of other people. You probably recall you already commented on this topic a few months back and NUMEROUS wild bird hunters stated they have in fact shot many wild birds on points of that distance.

To the OP, dont do a thing. Keep hunting the dog, he has the nose and he knows what is going on. DONT plant pigeons and encourage your dog to relocate on a bird that he already knows is there, you will create tons of problems. Be grateful you have an honest dog.
If it works for you, do it. From what you wrote here, I assume that you have never trained a dog perfering instead to just take it hunting. lot of guys do do that and if it works for them, fine!
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Re: pup pointing to far off

Post by Trekmoor » Wed Sep 03, 2014 6:27 pm

cjhills wrote: Pheasants are a whole different ballgame. I still do not believe the dog holding the bird theory or pinning the bird. If the bird thinks he is safer to stay hidden he does, if not he runs or flies.
That has been my experience too.

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Re: pup pointing to far off

Post by gundogguy » Thu Sep 04, 2014 3:05 am

mnaj_springer wrote:This thread makes me happy to be a spaniel guy :D When my dogs find birds it's obvious since there's suddenly a bird flying where there was nothing before :)
+1
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Re: pup pointing to far off

Post by Elkhunter » Thu Sep 04, 2014 3:50 pm

DonF wrote:
Elkhunter wrote:DonF I would have to disagree with just about everything you posted.... First off using planted birds/launchers to teach a dog to handle wild birds is foolish, why not just ACTUAL wild birds to teach a dog to point wild birds. What will a pigeon teach a dog that a wild chukar cannot??

If my dog is pointed and is intense and steady, he knows there are birds there. It does not matter if the birds are ten feet away or 50 yards away, if he knows they are there I DO NOT want him relocating/moving at all! That is how birds get bumped, from over zealous dogs trying to get too close.

My dogs point birds from 40+ yards consistently and we kill birds all the time, and I have had numerous points of 100+ yards and so have lots of other people. You probably recall you already commented on this topic a few months back and NUMEROUS wild bird hunters stated they have in fact shot many wild birds on points of that distance.

To the OP, dont do a thing. Keep hunting the dog, he has the nose and he knows what is going on. DONT plant pigeons and encourage your dog to relocate on a bird that he already knows is there, you will create tons of problems. Be grateful you have an honest dog.
If it works for you, do it. From what you wrote here, I assume that you have never trained a dog perfering instead to just take it hunting. lot of guys do do that and if it works for them, fine!
Hunting and training are pretty much the same for me! I use pigeons for finishing stuff etc. How a dog handles a bird is solely up to him and that bird.

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Re: pup pointing to far off

Post by gonehuntin' » Thu Sep 04, 2014 3:55 pm

Elkhunter wrote:
Hunting and training are pretty much the same for me! I use pigeons for finishing stuff etc. How a dog handles a bird is solely up to him and that bird.
That's true for an old dog, but for a youngster you can show them what you expect AND WHAT TO EXPECT FROM THE BIRD, thereby greatly lessening the training time for the young dog.
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Re: pup pointing to far off

Post by Elkhunter » Fri Sep 05, 2014 7:26 am

gonehuntin' wrote:
Elkhunter wrote:
Hunting and training are pretty much the same for me! I use pigeons for finishing stuff etc. How a dog handles a bird is solely up to him and that bird.
That's true for an old dog, but for a youngster you can show them what you expect AND WHAT TO EXPECT FROM THE BIRD, thereby greatly lessening the training time for the young dog.
I did the pigeon route for my first few dogs, I did not like the result. Switched to the wild bird route and have 2 of the best dogs I have ever had by leaps and bounds. Both in trials and hunting. I cant imagine ever going back.

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Re: pup pointing to far off

Post by Sharon » Fri Sep 05, 2014 1:46 pm

You're lucky there in Utah. Very few in Southern ON where I live - a covey is 2 birds. Without pigeon ............
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Re: pup pointing to far off

Post by gonehuntin' » Fri Sep 05, 2014 2:21 pm

Elkhunter wrote:
gonehuntin' wrote:
Elkhunter wrote:
Hunting and training are pretty much the same for me! I use pigeons for finishing stuff etc. How a dog handles a bird is solely up to him and that bird.
That's true for an old dog, but for a youngster you can show them what you expect AND WHAT TO EXPECT FROM THE BIRD, thereby greatly lessening the training time for the young dog.
I did the pigeon route for my first few dogs, I did not like the result. Switched to the wild bird route and have 2 of the best dogs I have ever had by leaps and bounds. Both in trials and hunting. I cant imagine ever going back.
Perhaps you used the launchers incorrectly?

I don't have time to dig up wild birds and I like to control the situation. Launchers all the way for youngsters, wild birds for their diploma.
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Re: pup pointing to far off

Post by tommyboy72 » Fri Sep 05, 2014 6:53 pm

I prefer the wild bird method from start to finish myself with a little launcher training mixed in to teach steady to the fall. My dogs break at the fall of the bird rather than the shot or me releasing them. Just my preference. If I miss they'll watch the bird fly but if I connect they are on the bird immediately.

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Re: pup pointing to far off

Post by Elkhunter » Sat Sep 06, 2014 6:26 am

Perhaps you used the launchers incorrectly?

I don't have time to dig up wild birds and I like to control the situation. Launchers all the way for youngsters, wild birds for their diploma.
Everyone has their own ways for sure! I would be using pigeons and hear chukars above me, and I kept thinking what the heck am I doing down here training on pigeons when there wild birds above. So ditched the pigeons and started training on wild birds. I use pigeons for steady to fall and STF etc but for everything else my hounds are on a strict wild bird diet!

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Re: pup pointing to far off

Post by Trekmoor » Sat Sep 06, 2014 8:21 am

I prefer to use wild birds even although I do have access to pigeons and to remote pigeon launchers. My dogs hunt in cover most of the time and if they make a mistake like getting too close in to birds I often cannot see this happen but the birds can and they fly off thus doing a large part of my training for me.

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Re: pup pointing to far off

Post by DonF » Sat Sep 06, 2014 9:41 am

Elkhunter wrote:
Perhaps you used the launchers incorrectly?

I don't have time to dig up wild birds and I like to control the situation. Launchers all the way for youngsters, wild birds for their diploma.
Everyone has their own ways for sure! I would be using pigeons and hear chukars above me, and I kept thinking what the heck am I doing down here training on pigeons when there wild birds above. So ditched the pigeons and started training on wild birds. I use pigeons for steady to fall and STF etc but for everything else my hounds are on a strict wild bird diet!
The pigeon is used to teach the dog how to handle a bird, wild birds finish out the dog. Dog's that fall apart on pigeon's are dogs that had the pigeon used like a training bird. You have the control of the trap, make like a wild bird! Wild birds can certainly do it but there is one major flaw in wild birds. They are wild and they do not co-operate with you. You cannot work a dog into a known bird, wild birds don't play that game. But a pigeon in a launcher can be made to act like a wild bird. But some people go in front of the dog testing the dog. Kicking around in the grass and if the dog moves, go to the dog and steady it up again, do you really think a wild bird will allow that to happen? Not hardly! How long do you think a wild bird will sit there while your styling up your dog? Not long! And even when your in a place that has lots of birds, you still don't know where the birds are and if the dog slows and start's making game, it could be a hot spot. D@mn wild birds just won't co-operate. You teach the dog how with the pigeon and finish the dog out on wild birds. If you turn the pigeon into a training bird and not get it out the moment the dog makes a mistake, the dog will learn the pigeon is a training bird and it will show in the dog's performance. Make the pigeon act like a wild bird and the dog will always look good on them.

I can train a dog with nothing more than a remote launcher, greatest tool ever for dog training, let's you make a pigeon act like a wild bird!
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pup pointing to far off

Post by omega » Sat Sep 06, 2014 11:44 am

I went very limited pen raised birds at the beginning for my last two dogs, in fact my oldest didn't see a pen bird until after grouse season. They both have done pretty well and keep getting better. I'll keep doing it the same way, plus training on wild birds is also scouting new places to hunt.

I'll supplement with pen birds during nesting season and if I have a test/trial to prepare for, but my number one goal is a grouse dog! Launchers are good tools, but can't duplicate a wild bird.

The owner/trainer also has to do their part.

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Re: pup pointing to far off

Post by Elkhunter » Sat Sep 06, 2014 1:37 pm

See I want wild birds to teach my dog how to handle them. Plus pointing the bird is just one part of the equation in my mind. He has to be able to find them, and know where to look and how to use the wind. I don't need a pigeon to act like a wild bird cause I will just use wild birds for that!! I will never go back to pigeons unless I can't walk... I understand there are those that don't have wild bird populations so obviously pigeons are needed. Though if someone lives in an area where there are wild birds pigeons should be used very little IMO.

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Re: pup pointing to far off

Post by ezzy333 » Sat Sep 06, 2014 3:35 pm

Elkhunter wrote:See I want wild birds to teach my dog how to handle them. Plus pointing the bird is just one part of the equation in my mind. He has to be able to find them, and know where to look and how to use the wind. I don't need a pigeon to act like a wild bird cause I will just use wild birds for that!! I will never go back to pigeons unless I can't walk... I understand there are those that don't have wild bird populations so obviously pigeons are needed. Though if someone lives in an area where there are wild birds pigeons should be used very little IMO.
I like wild birds also so I use our pigeon that are about as wild as they come. I do like to use the launchers at times because it allows me the control I need. It is a silly argument since it is just another case of people having their personal preferences as long as we don't get to the place of telling everyone your way is better. It isn't, just different and the same goes for mine. Every method has it's advantages and also it's disadvantages.

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