pup pointing to far off

[DonF]

I went very limited pen raised birds at the beginning for my last two dogs, in fact my oldest didn't see a pen bird until after grouse season. They both have done pretty well and keep getting better. I'll keep doing it the same way, plus training on wild birds is also scouting new places to hunt.

I'll supplement with pen birds during nesting season and if I have a test/trial to prepare for, but my number one goal is a grouse dog! Launchers are good tools, but can't duplicate a wild bird.

The owner/trainer also has to do their part.

The launcher doesn't do anything other than hold a bird and put it up when told to do so. The trainer simulate's the wild bird.

[omega]

Perhaps you used the launchers incorrectly?

I don't have time to dig up wild birds and I like to control the situation. Launchers all the way for youngsters, wild birds for their diploma.

Everyone has their own ways for sure! I would be using pigeons and hear chukars above me, and I kept thinking what the heck am I doing down here training on pigeons when there wild birds above. So ditched the pigeons and started training on wild birds. I use pigeons for steady to fall and STF etc but for everything else my hounds are on a strict wild bird diet!

The pigeon is used to teach the dog how to handle a bird, wild birds finish out the dog. Dog's that fall apart on pigeon's are dogs that had the pigeon used like a training bird. You have the control of the trap, make like a wild bird! Wild birds can certainly do it but there is one major flaw in wild birds. They are wild and they do not co-operate with you. You cannot work a dog into a known bird, wild birds don't play that game. But a pigeon in a launcher can be made to act like a wild bird. But some people go in front of the dog testing the dog. Kicking around in the grass and if the dog moves, go to the dog and steady it up again, do you really think a wild bird will allow that to happen? Not hardly! How long do you think a wild bird will sit there while your styling up your dog? Not long! And even when your in a place that has lots of birds, you still don't know where the birds are and if the dog slows and start's making game, it could be a hot spot. D@mn wild birds just won't co-operate. You teach the dog how with the pigeon and finish the dog out on wild birds. If you turn the pigeon into a training bird and not get it out the moment the dog makes a mistake, the dog will learn the pigeon is a training bird and it will show in the dog's performance. Make the pigeon act like a wild bird and the dog will always look good on them.

I can train a dog with nothing more than a remote launcher, greatest tool ever for dog training, let's you make a pigeon act like a wild bird!

A pigeon will never act like a wild bird!

[omega]

I went very limited pen raised birds at the beginning for my last two dogs, in fact my oldest didn't see a pen bird until after grouse season. They both have done pretty well and keep getting better. I'll keep doing it the same way, plus training on wild birds is also scouting new places to hunt.

I'll supplement with pen birds during nesting season and if I have a test/trial to prepare for, but my number one goal is a grouse dog! Launchers are good tools, but can't duplicate a wild bird.

The owner/trainer also has to do their part.

The launcher doesn't do anything other than hold a bird and put it up when told to do so. The trainer simulate's the wild bird.

Even the best trainer will not simulate a wild bird, no question!

[DonF]

I went very limited pen raised birds at the beginning for my last two dogs, in fact my oldest didn't see a pen bird until after grouse season. They both have done pretty well and keep getting better. I'll keep doing it the same way, plus training on wild birds is also scouting new places to hunt.

I'll supplement with pen birds during nesting season and if I have a test/trial to prepare for, but my number one goal is a grouse dog! Launchers are good tools, but can't duplicate a wild bird.

The owner/trainer also has to do their part.

The launcher doesn't do anything other than hold a bird and put it up when told to do so. The trainer simulate's the wild bird.

Even the best trainer will not simulate a wild bird, no question!

Key word here is "simulate".

[gonehuntin']

The launcher simulates the wild bird closely enough until basic training is complete, then only wild birds can finish the dog.

A young dog learns far faster with a launcher because the situation is always controlled.

[Ms. Cage]

The launcher simulates the wild bird closely enough until basic training is complete, then only wild birds can finish the dog.A young dog learns far faster with a launcher because the situation is always controlled.

+1 Being a ruffed grouse hunter a dog never points to far off. Launchers are a big part of early training , controlled situations. great for stop to flush, simtulating covey rises , multible flushs. Youngster want to road in on birds, bird is gone with launchers. Nothing I hate more then a dog that thinks they have to be on top of a bird to point.

[ezzy333]

The launcher simulates the wild bird closely enough until basic training is complete, then only wild birds can finish the dog.A young dog learns far faster with a launcher because the situation is always controlled.

+1 Being a ruffed grouse hunter a dog never points to far off. Launchers are a big part of early training , controlled situations. great for stop to flush, simtulating covey rises , multible flushs. Youngster want to road in on birds, bird is gone with launchers. Nothing I hate more then a dog that thinks they have to be on top of a bird to point.

My answer to this whole discussion is I am yet to see a pro trainer that doesn't use launchers. There is a reason.

[mask]

My answer is 40 yds. is not to far off for Smitty's dog or any other to stand at least for the type of hunting I do. The man ask a simple question. He did not ask about a bunch of other stuff. Sheesh!

[Elkhunter]

Here is my GSP a few days ago, pulling off the impossible. Pointing a covey of wild birds from 60-70 yards away......... Just for the naysayers.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=R0qVSkX ... CrsCqTqp7A

[DonF]

Here is my GSP a few days ago, pulling off the impossible. Pointing a covey of wild birds from 60-70 yards away......... Just for the naysayers.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=R0qVSkX ... CrsCqTqp7A

Wow! good job!

[Soarer31]

I have a pup with an exceptional nose he is just over a year old he is very steady to flush anyhows..but most of his points are 40 plus yards from the bird ...I want to start to work him on steady to wing and shot but I would like to fix this first should I let him figure it out for himself that he is pointing to far off???? or work on releasing and relocating him???? or something else perhaps

Mate,
You are posting this in the wrong sub forum, maybe in the Brags Forum :
But seriously get the dog to relocate if you must, I wouldn't consider that to be a prob at all

[DonF]

I have a pup with an exceptional nose he is just over a year old he is very steady to flush anyhows..but most of his points are 40 plus yards from the bird ...I want to start to work him on steady to wing and shot but I would like to fix this first should I let him figure it out for himself that he is pointing to far off???? or work on releasing and relocating him???? or something else perhaps

Mate,
You are posting this in the wrong sub forum, maybe in the Brags Forum :
But seriously get the dog to relocate if you must, I wouldn't consider that to be a prob at all

If that dog took a step to relocate, it would have passed the bird! lol

[gonehuntin']

Here is my GSP a few days ago, pulling off the impossible. Pointing a covey of wild birds from 60-70 yards away......... Just for the naysayers.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=R0qVSkX ... CrsCqTqp7A

I never doubt a dog can point that far and much further, especially under the conditions you encountered there. Very light cover, uphill thermals. Question is, do you WANT them to point that far away? Not for pheasant, grouse or woodcock I don't. I've just shot incidental chukar so can't say on them.

[Elkhunter]

Here is my GSP a few days ago, pulling off the impossible. Pointing a covey of wild birds from 60-70 yards away......... Just for the naysayers.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=R0qVSkX ... CrsCqTqp7A

I never doubt a dog can point that far and much further, especially under the conditions you encountered there. Very light cover, uphill thermals. Question is, do you WANT them to point that far away? Not for pheasant, grouse or woodcock I don't. I've just shot incidental chukar so can't say on them.

I want my dog to point when he knows there is a bird there, whether that is 5 feet or 100 yards. If you pause the video you will see she wont even blink or look at me when I walk past her. She knew exactly where they were, so no reason for her to move. With how difficult the terrain is I dont want an aggressive crowding dog, because usually you end up watching birds fly just after you hiked 1,000 vertical feet. Its no fun.

[birddogger]

Seems to depend on the type of birds and terrain one is hunting. I can only go by what I need and want for the type of hunting I have always done. I have never hunted wild chukars in the wide open country like some of the beautiful photographs I have seen on here, so I can't comment on that type of hunting.

Charlie

[orbirdhunter]

Personally, I think that your pup is doing fine. A good dog will learn as it matures when to move in closer and when to point at distance. But I find that most of the better, more confident dogs will point a little further away. They know where the birds are.....
The best dog that I have owned. A now retired GSP would often times point pheasants and quail at around 15-20yds or so....move out into chukar country...especially with a wind and 40-80yds was the norm. She would relocate on her own if the birds moved. She was never wrong...and I shot a silly amount of chukars on some of the most pressured chukar grounds in Oregon. I hope my new pup will be half the bird dog she was...
My current pup will lock up on a pigeon in a breeze at 40+yds all day long. And I am fine with that as long as he is sure he's got them pegged.

As far as the pigeons and wild birds jazz....I think for most people a mix of both seems to work the best.

[DonF]

Just a guess but I strongly suspect that these 50+ yard point's didn't start that far. Even at 35 yds, I doubt super dog could hold the birds. I think what probably happens is that the dog does go on point a bit to far off to hold the covey and then the handler come's in and push's them out farther. Birds flush way out there and you think the dog pointed them way out there. I know pointing dog's can get much closer to birds than whats being said here, my dog's always have. Guy in Portland, Ore on another site like's to tell us about all the birds he get's with his golden retriever, even has photo's of it. You trying to tell me a golden retriever can get within shotgun range but a pointing dog can't? I don't buy it. Ever had your dog on the down hill side of chukars? You come up from below him and normally the birds just move up the hill, they flush when the top out. Wow, the dog pointed them from 100 yds down the hill, must have, they flushed at the top!

Year's ago I hunted grouse in Montana, ruffs and blue's, with a Springer Spaniel. Skip was good but he never went out and herded the birds back into me before flushing them.

[ezzy333]

There are a thousand answers to this question or should I say to this opinion. Either way, it is all in the eye of the beholder. And before I would put much faith in any of it I would like to see the tape that was used. I have found little difference in the scenting ability of our sporting dogs however I think there is a difference in how they react to the scent. I don't doubt for a minute there are dogs that tend to point quicker and further than others and hopefully they do it because that is how they hold the birds. But I do know there are dogs that don't do that well while others are fantastic.

This is a fair question and the only correct answer is whatever you think. Each of us would have a different answer, and even that would change due to terrain, specie of bird, weather, and shooting ability. So pick your poison and go with it since there is no single correct answer and there is no dog that will point from the same distance two days in a row. Just another reason for all of us to enjoy following the dogs to see what we find and how we handle it day after day and still not have an answer for a lot of questions.

Ezzy

[AZ Brittany Guy]

Are the birds you are hunting exceptionally "jumpy ?" If birds habitually fly off as a dog approaches perhaps the dog has been taught greater caution by the birds themselves ? I noticed years ago that when my dogs pointed grouse near the start of the shooting season most of the points were fairly close ....maybe 5 to 15 yards but as the season progressed and the birds became nervous enough to fly off if closely approached my dogs would begin to point them from further and further back.
Has anything like this happened with your dog ?
I don't think I would do anything to change the way your dog is working.

Bill T.

+1......Let the birds teach him and let him relocate if he wants to.

[Vision]

Here is my GSP a few days ago, pulling off the impossible. Pointing a covey of wild birds from 60-70 yards away......... Just for the naysayers.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=R0qVSkX ... CrsCqTqp7A

Here's the companion video of the same dog pointing them 50+ yards away (you can see the dog in the left of the video at the very beginning), same covey in 2012
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LB1nnT6aCSg

[gonehuntin']

Any dog with a nose can be taught through repetition and correction to point at a distance. Sometimes the birds correct and teach them, sometimes we do. I think the real question is, "Is pointing at a great distance effective?"

[DonF]

A lot of years ago, a well known trainer, as a young man, taught his dog's to point from greatly extended ranges, that's no big trick. Lot of people on the trial circuit here were talking about it. But he ran into a problem in the trials; he didn't plant the birds and didn't know where they were. Non-productive's started to pile up on him. one of the things a dog should do is accurately point a bird. They can't do that from greatly extended ranges. They should also be able to approach closely enough to be able to hold the bird. That's a tricky thing. But a dog pointing a bird at a distance where the bird won't crouch and try to hide better, is going to have birds moving out on it. I believe that is what you 50+ yd people are seeing. So your dog relocates, fine. But it stops short of pinning the birds, they move out again or you move them out going past your dog. Until you showed up, the dog was no great threat to them but you are becoming the threat so they move out. Move until they don't feel they have enough cover and then flush. Your 50-100 yd point may have been originally a 30 yd point. I used to work on approaching close with the traps by relocating the dog's into a bird. They got to where they got within 10 yds or so, they could no longer be relocated. At that point I knew they had the bird well located. To turn that over, all that was needed were some wild birds to teach the dog the rules on wild birds. I believe more than smell goes on between birds and dogs. If you watch the dog you can tell if the bird is moving around of if the bird is going out to the side. the bird leaves and the dog goes soft, often begins flagging a bit. You see that, relocate your dog, he hasn't got the bird held anymore. If you don't want to chance it, still watch the dog. Usually the dog will go soft and start looking in the direction the bird moved. Then you can take commands from your dog, get out to 50+ yds and claim your dog pointed a bird at 50+ yds! Kind of a silly way to convince me your dog can point and hold birds at 50+ yds.

How do you teach your dog to point at those ranges? Easy, teach it to point at first scent and don't move. IMO, that has nothing to do with good dog work. I think something that blows the idea of 50+ yds points away is NSTRA. If dogs could actually do that, considering the small size of NSTRA fields, every bird would be found in every brace, but they are not!

[gonehuntin']

There is nothing, in my opinion, more beautiful than watching a dog that knows how to handle birds, and has handled thousands, to home in on a smart old rooster. The bird moves, the dog either races a circle or my favorite to watch, almost gets on their stomach and creeps in on the bird until it once again pins him. Again and again it may be repeated. Nothing prettier and more exciting to me.

I was once privileged to watch a great old grouse dog of mine handle a walking grouse. We were on a skitter road that cut through a sloped aspen slope with the road half way on the slope. It was November and the leaves were all down, the cover not exceptionally heavy. Taz moved like a NASA rocket and I saw him slam onto point, bent in half on the slope. I saw movement ahead and readied for the flush. I could see the grouse as it walked. It calmly walked away from the dog. As the scent lessened, or maybe Taz could see the bird, he would creep ahead like he was walking on brittle egg shells. The grouse would stop, he would take a step or two and stop. I don't know how far I followed him down the road, maybe 100 yards, maybe 75. The grouse finally flushed and I was so fascinated in the display by both the grouse and the dog, I didn't even shoulder the gun. Thought the dog was going to prance up and lift his leg on me.

With grouse, pheasant, quail and woodcock, I want that dog pushing that bird and close to it. I hate wandering all over a field then not finding or flushing the bird and having to release the dog for a relocate, which is not often accomplished after I've beaten the cover to a pulp.

[birddogger]

There is nothing, in my opinion, more beautiful than watching a dog that knows how to handle birds, and has handled thousands, to home in on a smart old rooster. The bird moves, the dog either races a circle or my favorite to watch, almost gets on their stomach and creeps in on the bird until it once again pins him. Again and again it may be repeated. Nothing prettier and more exciting to me.

I was once privileged to watch a great old grouse dog of mine handle a walking grouse. We were on a skitter road that cut through a sloped aspen slope with the road half way on the slope. It was November and the leaves were all down, the cover not exceptionally heavy. Taz moved like a NASA rocket and I saw him slam onto point, bent in half on the slope. I saw movement ahead and readied for the flush. I could see the grouse as it walked. It calmly walked away from the dog. As the scent lessened, or maybe Taz could see the bird, he would creep ahead like he was walking on brittle egg shells. The grouse would stop, he would take a step or two and stop. I don't know how far I followed him down the road, maybe 100 yards, maybe 75. The grouse finally flushed and I was so fascinated in the display by both the grouse and the dog, I didn't even shoulder the gun. Thought the dog was going to prance up and lift his leg on me.

With grouse, pheasant, quail and woodcock, I want that dog pushing that bird and close to it. I hate wandering all over a field then not finding or flushing the bird and having to release the dog for a relocate, which is not often accomplished after I've beaten the cover to a pulp.

AMEN!!!

Charlie

[Elkhunter]

DonF you need to put the traps and pigeons away... and put boots to the ground and actually see how its done instead of "trying" to imitate a wild bird and trying to convince others that a dog cannot smell a bird from 50+ yards away. A grizzly bear can smell a kill from 2 miles away but our bird dogs cant smell 20 chukars 50 yards away??? Hogwash. As for "holding" birds, any wild bird that I have hunted would be getting the heck out of town if a dog was creeping into 10 yards to point them! I mean come on Don, we are talking wild birds, not Dodo's that are extinct. You do realize that 10 yards is 3 big steps..... Now try to imagine a wild covey of birds allowing a predator to get that close to them. It wont happen unless we are talking Dodo birds.

You keep mentioning pen raised birds and pigeons, I prefer the real stuff. So I can only make my opinions on the wild birds that I chase 2 days a week for 9 months out of the year. I dont have your extensive experience with pigeons and launchers. I worked dogs again this morning, on wild birds of course, and moved 8 coveys of chukars. I saw him standing and as I was walking towards him I saw the chukars, they had NO IDEA he was there. They were loafing around and feeding. Completely oblivious to him. Which I think happens a lot of the time, especially when a dog is working the rims and thermals are bring scent to him. Chukars could be 60-100 yards off that rim and have no idea a dog is nearby.

Here is the first covey, dog was about 35 yards away from them, they flushed as I approached.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Eyd0Hcg ... CrsCqTqp7A

My camera then died, but he pointed a covey from about 60 yards away and I walked right past him and flushed a large covey. The next covey he pointed he was fairly close, like 20 yards. Then next one was 60 ish yards away. All pointed accurately and I would of easily limited out. Maybe I just have a super dog, or a dog that is trained on how to handle wild birds and not pigeons in traps.

Its funny the guys that always complain about birds being jumpy and birds flushing wild, are the guys with dogs that creep and pressure.

I am speaking mainly about chukars/huns/sharpies I have zero experience with woodcock/grouse etc. So I dont know what would be ideal with those birds.

[AZ Brittany Guy]

DonF you need to put the traps and pigeons away... and put boots to the ground and actually see how its done instead of "trying" to imitate a wild bird and trying to convince others that a dog cannot smell a bird from 50+ yards away. A grizzly bear can smell a kill from 2 miles away but our bird dogs cant smell 20 chukars 50 yards away??? Hogwash. As for "holding" birds, any wild bird that I have hunted would be getting the heck out of town if a dog was creeping into 10 yards to point them! I mean come on Don, we are talking wild birds, not Dodo's that are extinct. You do realize that 10 yards is 3 big steps..... Now try to imagine a wild covey of birds allowing a predator to get that close to them. It wont happen unless we are talking Dodo birds.

You keep mentioning pen raised birds and pigeons, I prefer the real stuff. So I can only make my opinions on the wild birds that I chase 2 days a week for 9 months out of the year. I dont have your extensive experience with pigeons and launchers. I worked dogs again this morning, on wild birds of course, and moved 8 coveys of chukars. I saw him standing and as I was walking towards him I saw the chukars, they had NO IDEA he was there. They were loafing around and feeding. Completely oblivious to him. Which I think happens a lot of the time, especially when a dog is working the rims and thermals are bring scent to him. Chukars could be 60-100 yards off that rim and have no idea a dog is nearby.

Here is the first covey, dog was about 35 yards away from them, they flushed as I approached.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Eyd0Hcg ... CrsCqTqp7A

My camera then died, but he pointed a covey from about 60 yards away and I walked right past him and flushed a large covey. The next covey he pointed he was fairly close, like 20 yards. Then next one was 60 ish yards away. All pointed accurately and I would of easily limited out. Maybe I just have a super dog, or a dog that is trained on how to handle wild birds and not pigeons in traps.

Its funny the guys that always complain about birds being jumpy and birds flushing wild, are the guys with dogs that creep and pressure.

I am speaking mainly about chukars/huns/sharpies I have zero experience with woodcock/grouse etc. So I dont know what would be ideal with those birds.

Not all of us have the luxury of wild game birds out our back door. I would venture to say that the majority of us need to train with pigeons and launchers. Congratulations to you.

[ezzy333]

DonF you need to put the traps and pigeons away... and put boots to the ground and actually see how its done instead of "trying" to imitate a wild bird and trying to convince others that a dog cannot smell a bird from 50+ yards away. A grizzly bear can smell a kill from 2 miles away but our bird dogs cant smell 20 chukars 50 yards away??? Hogwash. As for "holding" birds, any wild bird that I have hunted would be getting the heck out of town if a dog was creeping into 10 yards to point them! I mean come on Don, we are talking wild birds, not Dodo's that are extinct. You do realize that 10 yards is 3 big steps..... Now try to imagine a wild covey of birds allowing a predator to get that close to them. It wont happen unless we are talking Dodo birds.

You keep mentioning pen raised birds and pigeons, I prefer the real stuff. So I can only make my opinions on the wild birds that I chase 2 days a week for 9 months out of the year. I dont have your extensive experience with pigeons and launchers. I worked dogs again this morning, on wild birds of course, and moved 8 coveys of chukars. I saw him standing and as I was walking towards him I saw the chukars, they had NO IDEA he was there. They were loafing around and feeding. Completely oblivious to him. Which I think happens a lot of the time, especially when a dog is working the rims and thermals are bring scent to him. Chukars could be 60-100 yards off that rim and have no idea a dog is nearby.

Here is the first covey, dog was about 35 yards away from them, they flushed as I approached.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Eyd0Hcg ... CrsCqTqp7A

My camera then died, but he pointed a covey from about 60 yards away and I walked right past him and flushed a large covey. The next covey he pointed he was fairly close, like 20 yards. Then next one was 60 ish yards away. All pointed accurately and I would of easily limited out. Maybe I just have a super dog, or a dog that is trained on how to handle wild birds and not pigeons in traps.

Its funny the guys that always complain about birds being jumpy and birds flushing wild, are the guys with dogs that creep and pressure.

I am speaking mainly about chukars/huns/sharpies I have zero experience with woodcock/grouse etc. So I dont know what would be ideal with those birds.

I have always thought from what I have read in the past that you were a pretty sensible guy that knew his dogs and enjoyed them. But I had no idea that you were so narrow minded that you can't even understand what someone else that differs from your ideas that they aren't even worth listening to. What is the purpose of telling DonF, Gonehunting, and myself that we don't know what we are talking about? Granted the three of us have this handicap of being old, and that means we have had boots on the ground before you were more than a twinkling in your fathers eye and we have each had and trained more dogs than you have that we just do not understand how to train a dog? Though I do not know either of the gentlemen personally, and don't always agree with everything they say, I do know they are honestly telling you what they know from experience. And yet you continue to tell us all they know not of what they speak. All that is telling people is that you may not have the ability to understand there are many different ways to accomplish most anything you try. And what pleases you may not please everyone else but their way works as we can see by what they are telling us. I also know you can train like you are saying is the only way, as I did that for years till I found I could do the same thing quicker and easier by changing the way I trained. And I know neither Don nor Gone hunting are trying to tell you anything they haven't seen a thousand times over the years they have spent following dogs in the field.

Once again, you are welcome to train however you want, as are the rest of us. But we also have the right if not the responsibility to tell people what we have learned from our experience just like you are doing. But your experience has not included seeing any of us fail or flounder because we are no longer doing or wanting the same thing you are. So please, stop telling people with more experience than you have that they are wrong and a place to start might be to not tell any of us that are to the point we no longer can do all of the things you are bragging about though we have in the past and sorely miss being able to do them now.

As I said before birds, terrain, weather, as well as physical abilities all influence what and how a dog and the owners perform on any given day. Just do your best to enjoy what you are doing and allow others to do the same. You may find that there is no best way or that your way isn't any better than someone else's. And maybe thank God for the ability to see both.

Ezzy

[whatsnext]

Elk hunter I think you are editing your video's and It sounds like people are comparing apple's to Orange's. Elk hunter I have never hunted chukar's and I have a question when or if you hunt the single's or smaller group's after the flush are the point's at a closer range? When I chase Bobwhite's the dog's are standing the bird's at a good 15 to 25 yards when they find a covey but the single's are much closer sometimes a matter of feet. I think with covey's dog's can smell them a good way's off if the condition's are good and then there's pheasant's......they never do the same thing twice.....well maybe sometimes if it's cold.........unless the wind is blowing......oh what do I know anyway.

Elk hunter is showing proof of what happens and putting miles on the ground with a camera and I can relate to that because I spend more time in the field without a gun than with one. Whats that saying? You can have 20 year's experience or one year's experience 20 times or something like that

[Elkhunter]

Ezzy I am a sensible guy, and I know you guys have lots of experience. I am not telling anyone that my dogs are better than mine. Donf has said numerous times that no ones dogs can or have pointed birds father than 30 or so yards away. I call bull crap, and I have shown video proving it twice. And if my phone had not died I would of had numerous other examples. I know that with pheasants etc and other game birds in different types of cover that game contacts can happen at closer range etc. I am totally fine with that, my issue is that he has stated numerous times that what my dogs do every single time I take them out is impossible etc. And his last post suggests that I am doing something to make it appear that my dogs are pointing from farther away that is evidently possible. I really don't have the time or talent to pull that off.

Its funny that the 2-3 avid wild bird hunters on this topic have all disagreed with him.....

[ezzy333]

Ezzy I am a sensible guy, and I know you guys have lots of experience. I am not telling anyone that my dogs are better than mine. Donf has said numerous times that no ones dogs can or have pointed birds father than 30 or so yards away. I call bull crap, and I have shown video proving it twice. And if my phone had not died I would of had numerous other examples. I know that with pheasants etc and other game birds in different types of cover that game contacts can happen at closer range etc. I am totally fine with that, my issue is that he has stated numerous times that what my dogs do every single time I take them out is impossible etc. And his last post suggests that I am doing something to make it appear that my dogs are pointing from farther away that is evidently possible. I really don't have the time or talent to pull that off.

Its funny that the 2-3 avid wild bird hunters on this topic have all disagreed with him.....

you were doing well but then where did this come from

Its funny that the 2-3 avid wild bird hunters on this topic have all disagreed with him.....

[mask]

Some of you boys would ride a good horse to death. I believe elk hunter is correct for the type of bird we hunt. As far as training goes I train mostly on wild birds. I have homers and launchers that I use mainly for backing drills but use them for other stuff as well. The chukar and huns in this country don't behave by the book or like gentlemen so you need a dog that figures them out to be successful. Dogs that come in hard and fast to 10 or 15 yards will flush the birds, plain and simple. A dog that stands birds at 30 to 70 yards will put meat on the table( not all dogs have the nose or the talent to do this because it does take an excellent nose). It looks like the packing instinct is alive and well though.

[DonF]

Ezzy I am a sensible guy, and I know you guys have lots of experience. I am not telling anyone that my dogs are better than mine. Donf has said numerous times that no ones dogs can or have pointed birds father than 30 or so yards away. I call bull crap, and I have shown video proving it twice. And if my phone had not died I would of had numerous other examples. I know that with pheasants etc and other game birds in different types of cover that game contacts can happen at closer range etc. I am totally fine with that, my issue is that he has stated numerous times that what my dogs do every single time I take them out is impossible etc. And his last post suggests that I am doing something to make it appear that my dogs are pointing from farther away that is evidently possible. I really don't have the time or talent to pull that off.

Its funny that the 2-3 avid wild bird hunters on this topic have all disagreed with him.....

I don't think you'll find any where where is said a dog can't point birds from 30 yds away. You will find where I've said that dog's cannot accurately locate birds from that far and you'll find i said that the dog can't hold a bird from that distance. yep, I did say that. I don't know where you got the info that a grizzly bear can smell food from two miles. I haven't a clue if they can or not, what's that got to do with a dog smelling birds?

Edit: Spent the day put watching a field trial near Madras. I don't go out on course any more but like to watch the call backs for retrieving. Fairly nice breeze today, not hard at all but should have been great for scenting. There were I think seven dog's in the call back and every one of them save one went through the scent cone, or where it should have been without hitting the bird the first time through. Every one of them passed through the scent cone at less than about 20 yds the first time. Every dog when it pointed had the bird located extremely well. Without a doubt the birds used in trials, game farm birds, will allow a dog more liberty, normally but not always. Now if 50+ yd point's are so common place, how come these dog's were missing the bird time and again at 20 yds or less. I also told you about a young pro years ago that did have his dog pointing way out there and the result was he had trouble locating the birds so he finally quit doing that. From 50+ yds, a dog will not hold a bird, to far off for the bird to do anything other than keep an eye on the dog. You'll also find I said that, IMO, the job of the dog is to find, hold and accurately locate the birds. And you won't find any where where I said that you couldn't train on wild birds. There is a great disadvantage to that in that you can't control what the bird will do and you cannot just go out and get your dog on a bird you know it there. I think someone else mentioned that he didn't know of any pro trainer in the country that trains on wild birds from the beginning.

[Winchey]

I pretty much only use pigeons for backing and steadiness. I can see how you could teach dogs to handle birds with launchers, but it seems like it would be very difficult to teach them how to find them, how and where to hunt etc...

I think it is way easier to train on wild birds, you keep them conditioned, they learn how to find them and handle them.

[DonF]

I pretty much only use pigeons for backing and steadiness. I can see how you could teach dogs to handle birds with launchers, but it seems like it would be very difficult to teach them how to find them, how and where to hunt etc...

I think it is way easier to train on wild birds, you keep them conditioned, they learn how to find them and handle them.

I have a small field next to the house that I groomed this year just for getting my pup going. It was a pasture at one time and now is full of grass sage brush and weeds. I mowed it leaving clumps of dead grass and there is still some sage brush. I also build a cover pile with tree trimmings this year. You go out and the grass is very very thin other than the clumps I left which are heavy cover. The idea is the pup learns pretty quick that only the cover holds birds. Later on he'lln learn even better what kind of cover to go to. Why do you use pigeons for backing and steadiness? Why not just do that on wild birds too? One thing I found out years ago about backing training, do it with a wild bird and the dog in training always goes until the wild bird get's pushed out. With pigeons I pop them out when the training dog first see's the pointing dog. Get's the training dog to understanding that once it see's the dog on point it either stops or flush's the bird. Everything in training with pigeons is pretty much artificial. I don't know anyone that hunt's pigeon's with a pointing dog. So you set up things to be as real as you can, get the dog going the right way and then work on wild birds come's around a lot faster. The hard part about training with pigeon's is you either have launcher's you control or you have a helper and a check cord. You can stuff some pen raised birds in cover and get them to sit there, do that with a pigeon and you'll find they prefer to sit in a tree or on phone or power line's. You can put the pigeon down with folded wings of you can put it to sleep but then you need to young dog on a check cord and a helper. or you can put the pigeons in a launcher and then you control when the pigeon will flush. You can use pen raised birds but you'll find they don't always fly the best. Way to much temptation for the young dog to chase. Pen raised birds seem to be best used for starting the trained dog, on pigeons, on to game birds. About the only thing I like about them is they do stay pretty much where you put them so you know where to work the dog into a bird. One of these days I'm gonna pull more sage brush to toss into cover piles. Want to attempt to settle some pen raised birds in these piles using a housing system to feed and water then inside the brush pile. pen raised birds would work great if they can be left out in the environment with a safe heaven. Lot of guy's keep Johnny House's out where they can keep and fly birds from any time they want. Some time those birds can be hard to tell from wild. Birds raised in a flight pen may fly stronger but never learn to hide well. One exception to that is a flight pen a guy I know here has. Every year before birds go into it , he tills it up and plants a cover crop! You can look in there and not see many birds but they are there. Their only real problem then is avoiding predators. I did find a good way to turn pen raised birds awfully wild, did it by accident. had a pen of quail and bunch of sage in it for cover for them. caught some wild Huns and Valley Quail and put them in with the pen birds. Every time I went into the pen, the wild birds went crazy. Wasn't long until the pen raised birds went crazy too. At that time I did have a permit to trap wild birds. Your right about something though, the only way to teach dogs to handle wild birds is hunt wild birds with them. But between an 8wk old pup and a dog starting on wild birds in earnest, there's a whole bunch you can do to give the pup an edge in learning to handle wild birds. That's where the pigeons and pen raised birds come in. Those guy;s that would rather train on wild birds, it will probably work but pretty hard to move along at any kind of pace with training birds that won't co-operate. Then to in lots of place's the wild birds can't be run on in nesting season's. Other places there just aren't enough wild birds around to pull it off. Pigeons are every where and they will co-operate with you weather you use traps or a check cord and a helper.

[twistedoak]

I think subjects like the one the OP is talking about
"pup pointing to far off" and some of the responses are the biggest flaw in the "American" style of dog training.
its too directed towards trialing and titles then having a functioning hunting partner.

in Italy I believe they teach a system of duel relocating ,
after the dog establishes point the handler comes up online with the dog several feet to one side.
on command the dog matches the handlers steps as they both move forward searching for the bird.letting the dogs nose be the guide
the handler/gunner takes a step ,,the dog takes a step.
the handler/gunner takes two quick steps ,the dog takes 2 quick steps.

I never understood this whole infatuation with having a dog lock up and never move.
your dog is your biggest weapon/advantage to getting the bird(the objective of hunting) ,why handicap yourself by restricting them from helping you

[Elkhunter]

Don my experience and the experience of all of my avid wild bird hunting friends could not be farther off than what you are preaching. If my dog is pointing a covey of chukars from say 50 yards away, I only have to get about 20 or so yards from the birds before they flush. I have seen my dogs and my buddies dogs do it countless and countless and countless times. I have posted three videos showing it happening, and I could post hundreds more. But I can't beat your experience and knowledge so I will just give up. You live in Oregon, one of the best wild bird states in the country with significantly better hunting than what I have in Utah. Take advantage of it.

[Winchey]

Don I do train backing and steadiness on wild birds as well, I just like to do it on pigeons when I start correcting. If I am going to make mistakes, I want it to be on pigeons rather than wild birds.