E-collar question?

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scsims
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E-collar question?

Post by scsims » Thu Aug 21, 2014 12:56 pm

In conjunction with my other post regarding bird training, I've been working on e collar conditioning as some of you have stated I needed to do to keep some control over him the first season.

My question is, should the e collar only be used for hunting situation obedience ie.... Here and stand? Or can I also use it for other unwanted behavior, like jumping on my kids, steeling items and so on?

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Re: E-collar question?

Post by RichK » Thu Aug 21, 2014 1:05 pm

I use it for both. For me, it was a great tool to teach the "off" command with.

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Re: E-collar question?

Post by shags » Thu Aug 21, 2014 1:39 pm

You can use it for just about anything, but don't use it for everything, at least not all at once. Get one or two behaviors or commands down, then move on to another.

I was at a preserve and some ya-hoo had his lab on a collar and zapped that poor dog every two minutes. "Heel!" Zap. "Come!" Zap "no!" Zap "kennel!" Zap "Quiet!" Zap. Really pathetic, dog was a quivering mass of jelly.

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Re: E-collar question?

Post by gonehuntin' » Thu Aug 21, 2014 1:41 pm

Until you thoroughly understand the collar and it's many facets, I would use it for HERE only. I don't know how you can use it for whoa when the dog won't whoa. Only after the dog is thoroughly conditioned should it be used for aversives like trash and snake breaking or unwanted behavior. You do NOT want the dog to associate the collar with negativity.
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Re: E-collar question?

Post by DonF » Thu Aug 21, 2014 1:43 pm

I don't like hunting a dog with an e-collar on. But then I am in an absolutely huge minority. My though is that there is no reason to condition your dog to the collar if your never gonna take it off any way. I had heard dozens of excuse's for always wearing it, I don't by many!
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E-collar question?

Post by scsims » Thu Aug 21, 2014 1:51 pm

Ok, thanks. I will work on one command at a time.

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Re: E-collar question?

Post by Boolywooger » Thu Aug 21, 2014 3:19 pm

I have a follow-up question: This happened this morning with my 5 mo old Brittany and the first dog I've ever used an e-collar on. He was off leash and running in an open field ( a lawn so no chance of game being near ). I called him to come (I use Here). He stood there and looked at me. I had the e-collar set on vibrate, so I hit the button, but didn't hold it down, just a quick hit. No reaction, so I bumped it up to the lowest electrical stimulation setting and repeated. Repeated several times saying "Here" each time I nicked him. Still no reaction, I bumped it up to the 2nd level. At this point he did start running, but it was not toward me, it was perpendicular to me. I nicked him again, still running perpendicular. Rinse, repeat on the 3rd level, still running perpendicular. I bumped it up to 4, I've never used this level before. He started yipping with each nick as I said "Here", about the 3rd nick he turned toward me and I stopped my nicking as soon as he turned. When he got to me I just loaded him for heading home without any further discipline. I had successfully reinforced "Here" with just the vibrate in the past. Is this just the "terrible teens" that dogs are supposed to go through in their 4th to 6th month and did I react properly?

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Re: E-collar question?

Post by gonehuntin' » Thu Aug 21, 2014 3:35 pm

Your darn lucky you didn't create a bolter. Never, ever, command that dog without a cc on it to reinforce the collar or you're headed for huge problems.
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Re: E-collar question?

Post by CDN_Cocker » Thu Aug 21, 2014 3:56 pm

I use mine for everything - training, hunting and just plain old manners. They are much more efficient than any other tool
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Re: E-collar question?

Post by Sharon » Thu Aug 21, 2014 4:38 pm

Boolywooger wrote:I have a follow-up question: This happened this morning with my 5 mo old Brittany and the first dog I've ever used an e-collar on. He was off leash and running in an open field ( a lawn so no chance of game being near ). I called him to come (I use Here). He stood there and looked at me. I had the e-collar set on vibrate, so I hit the button, but didn't hold it down, just a quick hit. No reaction, so I bumped it up to the lowest electrical stimulation setting and repeated. Repeated several times saying "Here" each time I nicked him. Still no reaction, I bumped it up to the 2nd level. At this point he did start running, but it was not toward me, it was perpendicular to me. I nicked him again, still running perpendicular. Rinse, repeat on the 3rd level, still running perpendicular. I bumped it up to 4, I've never used this level before. He started yipping with each nick as I said "Here", about the 3rd nick he turned toward me and I stopped my nicking as soon as he turned. When he got to me I just loaded him for heading home without any further discipline. I had successfully reinforced "Here" with just the vibrate in the past. Is this just the "terrible teens" that dogs are supposed to go through in their 4th to 6th month and did I react properly?
possibilities:

He doesn't know the come command well enough.

He's used to you starting low and getting higher so he waits enjoying every last minute of indeoendence. :)

He's hitting his teens and is testing you.

Not sure what you mean gone huntin' What good would a check cord do out there 100 yards with a dog disobeying? Maybe you mean all this was happening just on the guy's lawn?

( I'm very picky about what I use the e collar for. If I can get my hands on a disobedient dog - like in the house- I don't use it.)
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Re: E-collar question?

Post by gonehuntin' » Thu Aug 21, 2014 5:48 pm

Sharon; every dog I ever have had, ever will have, or will ever help train, has been de-bolted as part of his basic obedience. Once you put a collar on a dog and start training it, you better de-bolt that dog with a very strong HERE command. If that had been my dog, at the first refusal I'd have gone out, put a rope on him, then made him HERE. I would never try to re-inforce a here command when the dog was not collar broken and not solid on the command. That is the exact way chronic bolters are created. Used to have to break lots of them in the days of the 70, but now with variable intensity, bolting has greatly decreased. This poster was very lucky though that he didn't create one. The Big Guy In The Sky was watching over him that day.
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Re: E-collar question?

Post by Sharon » Thu Aug 21, 2014 6:04 pm

Never heard de bolting discussed before. Thanks.

I'm very big on giving a command once- with even young pups - and then moving out and enforcing the first time. Makes all the difference.

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E-collar question?

Post by Bluesky2012 » Thu Aug 21, 2014 6:06 pm

gonehuntin' wrote:Sharon; every dog I ever have had, ever will have, or will ever help train, has been de-bolted as part of his basic obedience. Once you put a collar on a dog and start training it, you better de-bolt that dog with a very strong HERE command. If that had been my dog, at the first refusal I'd have gone out, put a rope on him, then made him HERE. I would never try to re-inforce a here command when the dog was not collar broken and not solid on the command. That is the exact way chronic bolters are created. Used to have to break lots of them in the days of the 70, but now with variable intensity, bolting has greatly decreased. This poster was very lucky though that he didn't create one. The Big Guy In The Sky was watching over him that day.

Exactly. Debolting is huge. You're lucky you didn't ruin your dog because you didn't do your duty of learning how and when to use a collar.

Two things I have learned are worth every bit of effort, force fetch and debolting.
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Re: E-collar question?

Post by kninebirddog » Thu Aug 21, 2014 6:41 pm

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Re: E-collar question?

Post by Boolywooger » Thu Aug 21, 2014 9:07 pm

OK, let me see if I can try to understand the feedback that has been given:

First off, Charlie has been trained on the "Here" since I got him, just short of 2 months. At first I started with clicker and treat as in the Willow Creek videos. I've also used a check cord to gently coax him to me while giving the command and praising him when he's come. I then added the e-collar, only using the vibration setting and gave him a little buzz at the same time I gave a little tug on the check cord to start him toward me, combined with much praise. He has successfully responded to the "Here" command hundreds of times in the past 3 months mostly without the e-collar and yes, I've gone out to him grabbed him by the collar and made him come to the spot at which I issued the command with no stimulation many times when he wasn't wanting to come in and didn't have his check cord on. This morning, It wasn't that he didn't understand what I wanted, it was that he didn't want to leave. Also, I don't think he was running perpendicular to me because he was trying to run away from me, but because he wanted to go back to the pond that was in the park to do some more swimming.

Gonehuntin', I've done what you've described about going and getting him and forcing him to respond to the command. I've also used the collar many times in a much gentler manner as a cue to come because of the command. So I'm not sure what I've done wrong? I didn't just throw the collar on him this morning and start pressing the button and cranking the stimulation up. If the e-collar is not used to enforce compliance of a known command at a distance, then I guess i don't know what one is for.

Sharon, so you say you only give a command once and then go out to enforce it... So, if it is a known command and the dog does not have a check cord on, but does have an e-collar on, and stands and looks at you with a "I know what you're asking, but I don't want to" look on his face, what would you do?

Knine, thanks for that link, I think I've done what was described there to a large extent, but in this case what I had done in the past and what was described in that link weren't working.

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Re: E-collar question?

Post by Brazosvalleyvizslas » Thu Aug 21, 2014 9:59 pm

Boolywooger wrote:I have a follow-up question: This happened this morning with my 5 mo old Brittany and the first dog I've ever used an e-collar on. He was off leash and running in an open field ( a lawn so no chance of game being near ). I called him to come (I use Here). He stood there and looked at me. I had the e-collar set on vibrate, so I hit the button, but didn't hold it down, just a quick hit. No reaction, so I bumped it up to the lowest electrical stimulation setting and repeated. Repeated several times saying "Here" each time I nicked him. Still no reaction, I bumped it up to the 2nd level. At this point he did start running, but it was not toward me, it was perpendicular to me. I nicked him again, still running perpendicular. Rinse, repeat on the 3rd level, still running perpendicular. I bumped it up to 4, I've never used this level before. He started yipping with each nick as I said "Here", about the 3rd nick he turned toward me and I stopped my nicking as soon as he turned. When he got to me I just loaded him for heading home without any further discipline. I had successfully reinforced "Here" with just the vibrate in the past. Is this just the "terrible teens" that dogs are supposed to go through in their 4th to 6th month and did I react properly?
It can be argued that once he did get to you, loading him in the truck is punishment in his eyes. But, this post hurts because I personally cant see how you would keep increasing the intensity hoping to get a positive result. I agree, the dog isn't strong on the "Here" command.... You would have been better off leaving the intensity lower and hold it down until he gets to you rather than "nick" and increase... If he learns that he cant get out of he is more likely to obey rather than a short higher intensity... Try giving a command during snake breaking and see what you get? I know that's an extreme example but its the same mindset.

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Re: E-collar question?

Post by Fun dog » Thu Aug 21, 2014 10:38 pm

Not being there I'm not sure exactly what you were doing but here's what I would suggest. No matter how good you think your dog is on the here command, it's no good if he doesn't understand what the stimulation is all about. Put the check cord back on the dog. Then when you say the command use the stimulation and check cord at the same time. Use continuous stimulation until the dog turns, then let off. Once the dog realizes the stimulation works hand in hand with the check cord you can stop using the cord, but don't be in a hurry to get rid of the cord in case you need to reinforce the e collar command. Eventually the e collar should work as a long check cord.

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Re: E-collar question?

Post by gonehuntin' » Fri Aug 22, 2014 5:14 am

So here's the thing Booly, as far as i can tell, you have not been working him at higher intensities, then shot the intensity up to gain compliance. That usually doesn't work. Collar conditioning a dog consists of working him and CONDITIONING him to ALL of the intensities he will be working at. So, it you plan on occasionally using a 4 (TT Pro 100), he has to be taught heel, here, fetch, whoa, etc at that level or he may bolt or freeze up when it is used on him. Anyone can train a dog using lower intensities, all of your problems develop at higher intensities.

He is VERY YOUNG to be collar breaking now. I usually do it at 8-10 months, but they learn the whole program with me. You have just now more thoroughly explained your total training process. Don't jump on Charlie and I for trying to understand what you've done when you haven't thoroughly explained yourself.
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E-collar question?

Post by Bluesky2012 » Fri Aug 22, 2014 5:17 am

Boolywooger wrote:OK, let me see if I can try to understand the feedback that has been given:

First off, Charlie has been trained on the "Here" since I got him, just short of 2 months. At first I started with clicker and treat as in the Willow Creek videos. I've also used a check cord to gently coax him to me while giving the command and praising him when he's come. I then added the e-collar, only using the vibration setting and gave him a little buzz at the same time I gave a little tug on the check cord to start him toward me, combined with much praise. He has successfully responded to the "Here" command hundreds of times in the past 3 months mostly without the e-collar and yes, I've gone out to him grabbed him by the collar and made him come to the spot at which I issued the command with no stimulation many times when he wasn't wanting to come in and didn't have his check cord on. This morning, It wasn't that he didn't understand what I wanted, it was that he didn't want to leave. Also, I don't think he was running perpendicular to me because he was trying to run away from me, but because he wanted to go back to the pond that was in the park to do some more swimming.

Gonehuntin', I've done what you've described about going and getting him and forcing him to respond to the command. I've also used the collar many times in a much gentler manner as a cue to come because of the command. So I'm not sure what I've done wrong? I didn't just throw the collar on him this morning and start pressing the button and cranking the stimulation up. If the e-collar is not used to enforce compliance of a known command at a distance, then I guess i don't know what one is for.

Sharon, so you say you only give a command once and then go out to enforce it... So, if it is a known command and the dog does not have a check cord on, but does have an e-collar on, and stands and looks at you with a "I know what you're asking, but I don't want to" look on his face, what would you do?

Knine, thanks for that link, I think I've done what was described there to a large extent, but in this case what I had done in the past and what was described in that link weren't working.

You're wrong in believing you collar conditioned your dog, and believing you can collar condition a dog using the vibrate command.

The vibrate function is worthless and should not be used. Your dog does not generalize the vibrate as meaning the same thing as true electrical stimulation, especially at higher levels. All you've taught your dog is, I'm going to tickle your neck and that means the same thing as "here", NOT im going to command here, and if you don't comply then you're going to feel discomfort until you comply.

That's the difference, you never actually conditioned your dog to understand and turn off pressure. In turn your dog disobeyed you because you were simply nagging him with a "vibrate" for a while. When you decided actually enforce "here", you cranked it up but your dog didn't understand the pain and decided to run away from you to turn it off and escape rather than complying.

Either your dog doesn't understand pressure at all and panicked and ran away, or your dog kind of understands pressure but doesn't understand it will get him anywhere until he complies hence de-bolting.
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Re: E-collar question?

Post by Nutmeg247 » Fri Aug 22, 2014 7:49 am

The thing with the vibrate function is that, to begin with, it's more aversive to many dogs than e-stim. So, imo, similar to starting the e-collar with way too high a level of e-stim. But, dogs can get used to the vibrate, as well. So, it's clunky and unreliable. When I go to the pet store, there's a whole category of non-e-stim remote collars (tone, vibrate, ultra-sonic, etc.) that are marketed as "nicer," and are doing dogs no favors imo.

I'd go with the dog panicking due to the increasing stim on this one.

In terms of picking the dog up afterwards, to me that would have been a viable response if the failure to recall had repeated a couple times with a dog that was normally reliable on the command in that circumstance, and if the dog hadn't just received the escalating collar stims resulting in yelping. Off-leash/check cord, in a field, with water nearby represent several powerful distractions, so a dog that recalls reliably in the backyard shouldn't be expected to recall reliably the first time all those distractions are present together.

With the yelps that happened, personally whether it's from training, catching himself in a fence, what have you, I'd make a point to end the time on an "up" note for the dog.

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Re: E-collar question?

Post by Sharon » Fri Aug 22, 2014 8:30 am

Boolywooger wrote:OK, let me see if I can try to understand the feedback that has been given:

First off, Charlie has been trained on the "Here" since I got him, just short of 2 months. At first I started with clicker and treat as in the Willow Creek videos. I've also used a check cord to gently coax him to me while giving the command and praising him when he's come. I then added the e-collar, only using the vibration setting and gave him a little buzz at the same time I gave a little tug on the check cord to start him toward me, combined with much praise. He has successfully responded to the "Here" command hundreds of times in the past 3 months mostly without the e-collar and yes, I've gone out to him grabbed him by the collar and made him come to the spot at which I issued the command with no stimulation many times when he wasn't wanting to come in and didn't have his check cord on. This morning, It wasn't that he didn't understand what I wanted, it was that he didn't want to leave. Also, I don't think he was running perpendicular to me because he was trying to run away from me, but because he wanted to go back to the pond that was in the park to do some more swimming.

Gonehuntin', I've done what you've described about going and getting him and forcing him to respond to the command. I've also used the collar many times in a much gentler manner as a cue to come because of the command. So I'm not sure what I've done wrong? I didn't just throw the collar on him this morning and start pressing the button and cranking the stimulation up. If the e-collar is not used to enforce compliance of a known command at a distance, then I guess i don't know what one is for.

Sharon, so you say you only give a command once and then go out to enforce it... So, if it is a known command and the dog does not have a check cord on, but does have an e-collar on, and stands and looks at you with a "I know what you're asking, but I don't want to" look on his face, what would you do?

Knine, thanks for that link, I think I've done what was described there to a large extent, but in this case what I had done in the past and what was described in that link weren't working.
I tried to say I do that immediately starting at 8 weeks of age. If I call the dog ONCE etc. and if I'm not going to get off the couch and enforce it , then I don't call. If we're in the yard, I get him after one call - check cord on. Doesn't take long for that young dog to get the picture. By the time that pup is old enough to be getting more independent in the field - getting out there where I can't put my hands on him - he is pretty obedient on one call, and he has been conditioned to the e collar for a back up .

I also make sure no one else in the family calls the pup and doesn't follow through.
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Re: E-collar question?

Post by Boolywooger » Fri Aug 22, 2014 10:13 am

gonehuntin' wrote:Don't jump on Charlie and I for trying to understand what you've done when you haven't thoroughly explained yourself.
One of the faults of written text is that it's hard to tell what the other person's tone is. I have no intention of jumping on anyone. I'm extremely grateful to all of you more experienced trainers for taking the time to answer the questions of "clueless newbs" like me. I apologize that I didn't give a more thorough explanation of the incident. I still have one other thing to add. Charlie lives in a Petsafe Stay and Play electrical fence, so he was collar conditioned to an e-collar when that training occurred over the course of a few weeks. We started with a beep only, then gradually increased the stimulation. He is now at level 3, which I understand is the level that most dogs are at. He, on a couple of occasions, ignored the collar at level 2, which is the lowest level that includes electrical stimulation.
Brazosvalleyvizslas wrote:You would have been better off leaving the intensity lower and hold it down until he gets to you rather than "nick" and increase... If he learns that he cant get out of he is more likely to obey rather than a short higher intensity.


I'll take this advice to heart. I had read on one of these forums that a series of nicks was more effective than continuous stimulation. I do have the mindset that what I am trying to do is teach him that if he complies with a command it turns off the negative stimulation.
Sharon wrote:I tried to say I do that immediately starting at 8 weeks of age. If I call the dog ONCE etc. and if I'm not going to get off the couch and enforce it , then I don't call. If we're in the yard, I get him after one call - check cord on. Doesn't take long for that young dog to get the picture. By the time that pup is old enough to be getting more independent in the field - getting out there where I can't put my hands on him - he is pretty obedient on one call, and he has been conditioned to the e collar for a back up .

I also make sure no one else in the family calls the pup and doesn't follow through.
I'll try to take this approach going forward. Call once, if he doesn't comply go and get him, put on a check cord and do some "enforced Here's". Praise him if he comes without me having to haul him in, and quit on a positive note.

Do you think that ping ponging him between two people who give him treats when he complies to the "Here" command has any lasting value? Charlie is very treat motivated, but it doesn't seem like it transfers over very well into behavior that occurs when a treat is not involved.

Again, thanks to all of you who have provided feedback. I really do appreciate it.

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E-collar question?

Post by Bluesky2012 » Fri Aug 22, 2014 10:19 am

Treats don't do anything but teach. Enforce the commands because he obviously knows them (unless you want to always have treats in your pockets).

Remember two things

1. Punishment fits the crime. Yes you can increase intensity, or start higher or lower given the circumstance. You'll learn when and how as you go.

2. The "nicks" I think you're referring to are as Chris Aiken does it. He does a "continuous nick" meaning a nick every half second-ish until the dog fixes the issue. That's ahead of where you're at but that's what the nicks are often used as in the beginning.
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Re: E-collar question?

Post by Nutmeg247 » Fri Aug 22, 2014 12:29 pm

As far as the ping-ponging between two people for recall, even for trainers who use no punishment or corrections whatsoever, that would be an artificial setup. Doing training conditioning where you call the dog and then something good always happens (food, play, etc.) can yield lots of dividends, though. As for the treats, I'm someone who uses them for training, but in the field my dog often isn't interested in food, period. Even around the house, it works better to either 1) always carry treats, or 2) hide or cache treats, so that the dog doesn't cue "listening" to seeing or smelling the treats on you. Positive-only obedience handlers who rely on treats without being mindful of the dog becoming treat-wise often resort to faking treats by making it look like they're holding one during formal obedience, which obviously isn't good for hunting.

I'd give some thought to the physical situations you're in when you get failed recalls from the dog. I'd then ratchet down the distractions for a training session or two -- say, a football field at a quiet time, rather than an open field -- and have a couple sessions with a high, as in 95% or more, success rate, with the dog released to do other fun stuff in between recalls. Then, in a more real-life situation, start with a day of primarily shorter recalls before ratcheting the difficulty and distractions back up.

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Re: E-collar question?

Post by gonehuntin' » Fri Aug 22, 2014 4:47 pm

I personally don't like holding the button down on a dog. They have NO chance to comply with the command. I have always used the nick and always will. This gives the dog a chance to comply with the command. When he does, no nick. When he doesn't nick command, nick command, nick command, until he properly responds. You achieve more rapid results, and longer lasting results, by using the higher nick. Continuous is a nag, nick is a correction.
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E-collar question?

Post by Bluesky2012 » Fri Aug 22, 2014 5:31 pm

gonehuntin' wrote:I personally don't like holding the button down on a dog. They have NO chance to comply with the command. I have always used the nick and always will. This gives the dog a chance to comply with the command. When he does, no nick. When he doesn't nick command, nick command, nick command, until he properly responds. You achieve more rapid results, and longer lasting results, by using the higher nick. Continuous is a nag, nick is a correction.

Agreed. I like to use the "constant nicks" for initial collar conditioning, collar fetch, and that's about it. Aside from those times, I do what you're mentioning.

Is the pure continuous stimulation an old school method? I saw hickox's used it in a DVD I have but the newer retriever stuff I have never uses that.
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Re: E-collar question?

Post by gonehuntin' » Fri Aug 22, 2014 6:01 pm

Yes, it as Jim Dobbs promoted it back in the 80's. The retriever guys never liked it, but the pointer guys jumped on it. I never really understood why. I guess it's been explained to me many times, I just don't agree with them or see their point. For a dog to be happy and hard driving on the ecollar, he has to be able to beat the stimulation. The pointing guys also generally work at lower levels of stimulation than retriever guys. Try continuous on a level 4 or 5 and you won't do very well.
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Re: E-collar question?

Post by Tejas » Fri Aug 22, 2014 9:01 pm

Continuous stimulation is old school because it works. I know several top GSP field trial or hunt test trainers who use that method. First and foremost the dog absolutely needs to know and obey the command on the check cord, every time and right now. Assuming you have properly discovered the lowest continuous level that the dog feels, overlay the e-collar with the check cord. Simultaneously give the here command and apply the low level continuous stimulation. As soon as the dog starts to come to you turn off the stimulation and encourage it to continue to you. The dog quickly learns that complying with the command turns off the stimulation. If you use the momentary...you are merely confusing the dog.

Eliminate the variables and both you and your dog will be happier. You can still find the whole series of training lessons that Rick Dobbs did for Pointing Dog magazine at dobbsdogs.com....he was also a representative for tri-tronics as well. They had a vested interest in customers successfully utilizing their products.

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E-collar question?

Post by Bluesky2012 » Fri Aug 22, 2014 10:16 pm

Tejas wrote:Continuous stimulation is old school because it works. I know several top GSP field trial or hunt test trainers who use that method. First and foremost the dog absolutely needs to know and obey the command on the check cord, every time and right now. Assuming you have properly discovered the lowest continuous level that the dog feels, overlay the e-collar with the check cord. Simultaneously give the here command and apply the low level continuous stimulation. As soon as the dog starts to come to you turn off the stimulation and encourage it to continue to you. The dog quickly learns that complying with the command turns off the stimulation. If you use the momentary...you are merely confusing the dog.

Eliminate the variables and both you and your dog will be happier. You can still find the whole series of training lessons that Rick Dobbs did for Pointing Dog magazine at dobbsdogs.com....he was also a representative for tri-tronics as well. They had a vested interest in customers successfully utilizing their products.
If it works so well why don't people like lardy, farmer, etc use it? Even most pointer people left that method to my knowledge.
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Re: E-collar question?

Post by gonehuntin' » Sat Aug 23, 2014 6:36 am

I think to understand continuous, you have to understand how it started. When the 80 was developed, you could only vary the intensity by callng the dog into you, taking the plug out of the collar, and inserting a plug one level higher. Now, if you wanted to created a collar wise dog, that was the way to do it. You might call the dog in, go to a three, then a four, then a five. The dog's learned that after they were called in once or twice, they better comply or fry.

The second bad thing about it was that by using continuous, you built electrical tolerance so you actually ended up with tougher dogs than when simply training with the highest level. TT had to justify the collar so about the mid eighties, Jim and Phyllis Dobbs split from Rex Carr and opened what I believe was called, the Tritronics Training Center. May be wrong about the name, I'm going back 30 years, but I think that was it. It was at that time that Dobbs made place boards famous, another thing I find rediculous. The thing is, retrievers and pointing dogs are two distinctly different animals in what is required of them. Pointing dogs are all about ceasing motion. Retrievers are about driven motion. So, with a pointing dog, if you said whoa, hitting him with a level 6 to reinforce it, they went about 3' in the air, thereby defeating the purpose of the stimulation. A retriever on the other hand, upon being hit with six and given an over or back, blistered the ground complying.

So you had this clash of breed tolerances with both being trained at the same center, and both with a collar where you could not switch intensity without manually getting the dog and changing it. Something was needed that both types of dogs could be trained with. They were also writting a new book, the first ever, on electric collar training. Everyone realized that many people could NEVER learn to train a dog with a high intensity; for every action there was a reaction, many times adverse, and it took years to learn what they were and how to deal with them. If TT wanted to sell more collars, they had to come up with a collar that every hunter could use without runing their dog and a method that a rattled trainer could use.

Hence lower range continuous. You could get mad and freeze on the button, and it didn't hurt the dog. You got compliance but it took longer and wasn't as reliable, but it worked for the average Joe. The great breakthrough was the variable intensity collar that was variable from the transmitter. NOW we had a tool that we could use low and if no compliance, instantly jump to high. If the dog learned he always got one warning, you went to higher intensities continually until compliance was again achieved.

So, IF you used it for a pointing dog and trained WHOA, you had to run low intensity or at the stimulation, IF CONTINUOUS, the dog would jump in the air of spin a circle. It takes longer to train the dog, but with patience, it works. I still prefer the nick at higher levels. If the dog has been conditioned, it doesn't knock them off WHOA, and gives them a correction they remember. You have to be experienced to use a higher level nick, but the dog learns faster, doesn't require as much correction, and doesn't build electrical tolerance. That is why all top retriever trainers today use the nick, and why many pointing dog trainers that are versed in the ecollar do.

Nearly everyone breaks a dog out on ff and whoa on continuous, but as soon as the dog has the commands down, the nick should be switched to. I don't like EVER using continuous to teach a dog to come.

That's the difference in the two methods and how they were both developed.
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