How Often Should I Shoot a Quail or Pigeon

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How Often Should I Shoot a Quail or Pigeon

Post by scsims » Wed Aug 20, 2014 12:41 pm

My Britt is about 9 months old and is working on shotgun conditioning before this up coming season. Most of the time when the bird hits the air and the dog gives chase I shoot in the air when he's out about 20-30 yards. So far I've shot 2 quail and 1 pigeon for him.

How often should I be training him on planted quail and how often should I shoot one?

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Re: How Often Should I Shoot a Quail or Pigeon

Post by Sharon » Wed Aug 20, 2014 3:27 pm

9 months old.
Need a little more info.
How long has he been chasing? Is he pointing at all or creeping or just busting the bird? Sounds like his bird drive is firmly established and for me it would be time to stop the chase. That should mean fewer shot birds but maybe not. :)
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How Often Should I Shoot a Quail or Pigeon

Post by scsims » Wed Aug 20, 2014 4:27 pm

He points well, but will not let me get in front if him every time before he rushes in, sometimes he will.... For how long, he started out chasing early on around 4 months then went to a pro for a months at 7 months old, an he had him not chasing when I got him back. I would just launch or flush the bird a let him just run a few yards on the check cord. Now since shotgun intro he's been chasing this time for about a month.

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Re: How Often Should I Shoot a Quail or Pigeon

Post by Sharon » Wed Aug 20, 2014 5:13 pm

This is not uncommon. You need to take some steps back. He must be steady to the flush before I would be shooting as much over him right now. ... considering what you've said.

Steady to flush starts in the backyard not the field. Are you following any programme?

I'm sure others can give more specific advice.
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How Often Should I Shoot a Quail or Pigeon

Post by scsims » Wed Aug 20, 2014 5:32 pm

Yes I'm using Maurice Lindley's book. Same method as the pro I'm using. He's going back to the trainer at the beginning of October.

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Re: How Often Should I Shoot a Quail or Pigeon

Post by gonehuntin' » Wed Aug 20, 2014 7:35 pm

Once the dog is bold and birdie, and used to the gun, there is absolutely no value in letting him chase birds. What I see now is that you have a real problem developing in that the dog won't even stay steady to flush, in fact he won't let you get in front of him and walk around him. That's not serious, but he's going in reverse and not ahead.

How is his whoa work? I assume non existant since he won't let you walk around him. If this is the case, work him without birds in the yard until he'll whoa when you say whoa any place, any time, any where. Now it's time to add the birds.

I WOULD NOT shoot any birds over him until HE LETS YOU GO IN FRONT AND FLUSH. This isn't taught in the field, it's taught in the yard. Before you take him into the field again, he should stand at whoa in the yard and let you throw pigeons or clip wing quail around him. First you steady him to launchers in the yard, then the clipwings.

The more solid foundation you can install, the faster your pro will progress him and the more money it will save you.
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Re: How Often Should I Shoot a Quail or Pigeon

Post by ibbowhunting » Wed Aug 20, 2014 8:23 pm

The method that mo uses to steady a dog doesn't use the more common whoa command, its all done using cues to the dog thru a training collar and e collar nicks no commands,
I never tried his system but have studied alot of info about it, to me It seems you need to be able to read your dog very well, which is why I havnt commited to trying his system

imo
Training with Mo is a good read no matter what system your using

also Maurice is a active member of this board, and seems to like to give out info about his system( which make me respect him and I have never met him)

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How Often Should I Shoot a Quail or Pigeon

Post by scsims » Thu Aug 21, 2014 5:19 am

There is really no whoa in the book until the end and he states he teaches it if the clients wants him to. His method the bird teaches the dog to be steady. He learns if he moves off point the birds is gone and there is no chance of him getting it.

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Re: How Often Should I Shoot a Quail or Pigeon

Post by RayGubernat » Thu Aug 21, 2014 9:14 am

scsims wrote:There is really no whoa in the book until the end and he states he teaches it if the clients wants him to. His method the bird teaches the dog to be steady. He learns if he moves off point the birds is gone and there is no chance of him getting it.

The "verbal" command is one thing. A verbal....obedience type command. The act of dog stopping and standing at the scent of a bird is NOT an obedience command.

A dog can be taught the obedience command in the yard and that command can be overlaid and transferred in the field to things like the sight of a flying bird and the scent of a bird.

In other words, the sight or scent of the bird BECOMES the command "whoa". In the field there is really no reason to use the verbal command...unless and until the dog does not stop and stand. Then one can enunciate the verbal command and nick the dog, then go put it back, or ...just nick the dog and go put it back.

Or the dog can be introduced to birds as Maurice does it, with no verbal cue. If it is done correctly, the bird(sight or scent) winds up being the cue for the dog to stop stand and grow roots.

The softer a dog is, and the earlier it is in the training process, the less it needs distractions by verbalizing around birds in general and hollering in particular.

RayG

If the dog is not letting you get in front, I would not reward the dog with a shot, and certainly would not shoot the bird for the dog. You have said that the dog knows better. That means the dog is breaking training. I do not reward a dog for breaking training.
Last edited by RayGubernat on Thu Aug 21, 2014 9:25 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: How Often Should I Shoot a Quail or Pigeon

Post by aulrich » Thu Aug 21, 2014 9:22 am

While there is no whoa in mo’s method, the difference between Mo’s Stand and whoa is like the difference between a black duck hen and a mallard duck hen, it take someone with knowledge of both to really explain the differences. In the end they are both methods of getting your dog to stand still.

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Re: How Often Should I Shoot a Quail or Pigeon

Post by gonehuntin' » Thu Aug 21, 2014 10:16 am

A bird doesn't teach obedience; man does. A bird and launcher teaches a dog that he can't move around a bird or he will flush it. Some NEVER learn this.

Whoa is simply an obedience command like sit, down, here. YOUR dog needs WHOA, because he is moving when YOU do. Now, you may be able to teach him not to ever move by using launchers, but my PERSONAL opinion is that he learns obedience first or with the launchers. They are two totally different things. Teach him whoa in the yard so you can walk around him, leave him, and come back to him. Whoa has NOTHING to do with birds and every thing to do with obedience.

Everyone assumes their dog will eventually stop busting birds on their own. That is not true. Some think it great fun and if not physically stopped, will delight in doing it all of their lives.
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Re: How Often Should I Shoot a Quail or Pigeon

Post by Sharon » Thu Aug 21, 2014 10:35 am

gonehuntin' wrote:A bird doesn't teach obedience; man does. A bird and launcher teaches a dog that he can't move around a bird or he will flush it. Some NEVER learn this.

Whoa is simply an obedience command like sit, down, here. YOUR dog needs WHOA, because he is moving when YOU do. Now, you may be able to teach him not to ever move by using launchers, but my PERSONAL opinion is that he learns obedience first or with the launchers. They are two totally different things. Teach him whoa in the yard so you can walk around him, leave him, and come back to him. Whoa has NOTHING to do with birds and every thing to do with obedience.

Everyone assumes their dog will eventually stop busting birds on their own. That is not true. Some think it great fun and if not physically stopped, will delight in doing it all of their lives.

Excellent insight as usual. You always give me something to ponder on. I never had a dog that wouldn't "stop busting birds on its own." I see I was lucky. :)
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Re: How Often Should I Shoot a Quail or Pigeon

Post by MillerClemsonHD » Thu Aug 21, 2014 11:41 am

scsims wrote:My Britt is about 9 months old and is working on shotgun conditioning before this up coming season. Most of the time when the bird hits the air and the dog gives chase I shoot in the air when he's out about 20-30 yards. So far I've shot 2 quail and 1 pigeon for him.

How often should I be training him on planted quail and how often should I shoot one?

Can't see the exact situation through an internet post but if you are following Mo's method this is how I would proceed.

No need for the shotgun anymore in training sessions if dog isn't gun shy and you have the drive.

I would put the dog on a check cord and pinch collar and begin the foundation work. You can start at home but you need to do it in the training fields where he has been finding birds. This is where you start to put a handle on him, and also overlay the ecollar. Once hunting season is open you will have him collar conditioned so you have a recall and can stop chasing of deer etc. This season hunt him. Let him knock and chase or whatever. Once he points a bird and lets u flush kill it. Through the season he will let you flush more than he knocks and chases.

Come spring time start with your foundation work again and make sure everything is solid and then break the dog. Start by taking the chase away on the check cord and graduate to free running as the dog progresses.

Mo might see your post but his email is in his book and on his website. Don't be afraid to email him and ask him questions. Going to be 97 here the next few days. If he isn't on the tractor mowing he might be looking for something to do in the afternoons.

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Re: How Often Should I Shoot a Quail or Pigeon

Post by gonehuntin' » Thu Aug 21, 2014 11:51 am

Sharon wrote:
gonehuntin' wrote:A bird doesn't teach obedience; man does. A bird and launcher teaches a dog that he can't move around a bird or he will flush it. Some NEVER learn this.

Whoa is simply an obedience command like sit, down, here. YOUR dog needs WHOA, because he is moving when YOU do. Now, you may be able to teach him not to ever move by using launchers, but my PERSONAL opinion is that he learns obedience first or with the launchers. They are two totally different things. Teach him whoa in the yard so you can walk around him, leave him, and come back to him. Whoa has NOTHING to do with birds and every thing to do with obedience.

Everyone assumes their dog will eventually stop busting birds on their own. That is not true. Some think it great fun and if not physically stopped, will delight in doing it all of their lives.

Excellent insight as usual. You always give me something to ponder on. I never had a dog that wouldn't "stop busting birds on its own." I see I was lucky. :)
I wrote a story once about "The Setter That Wouldn 't". What a frustrating, horrible, animal. Bird finding maching but he was convinced he was "born to flush". I check coded him, launchered him, whipped him, threatened him and ran enough electricity through him to light up Chicago. Didn't matter, he very happily continued busting most of his birds until the day he died. Never saw another dog like him, hope I never will again.
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Re: How Often Should I Shoot a Quail or Pigeon

Post by aulrich » Thu Aug 21, 2014 12:42 pm

Actually I have Mo's book at my desk Page 20 covers where you are at, if I understand correctly.

As said in a previous post get the dog collar conditioned to here, I didn't that first season, and I paid in stress over a couple of nightmare dog out of control situations and in delay of other steps, while I back tracked and finished basic OB.

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Re: How Often Should I Shoot a Quail or Pigeon

Post by Meller » Thu Aug 21, 2014 2:11 pm

It sounds to me that the trainer done his job on getting him to stand to at least flush; so if I were you I would have the trainer show or explain how he managed this and show me. And Whoa can be taught without a verbal command as said, by using cues and these cues should be taught during training not around birds and then enforced around birds, not in a distracting manor. :)

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Re: How Often Should I Shoot a Quail or Pigeon

Post by gonehuntin' » Thu Aug 21, 2014 2:51 pm

I have always thought that whoa without a verbal command was an interesting subject. I've never been a huge fan, nor do I really object to it. Here are my thoughts, for what it's worth. I will NOT give a dog a correction with the exception of trash or snake breaking without a verbal command first being issued. Now, once the dog knows verbal whoa, then knows that a bird means whoa, I don't have a problem with simply tickling him when he takes a step on birds. I do think that a dog has to know whoa first as an obedience command. You NEED that with him simply for control in the car, house, or hunting. By teaching verbal whoa, then the correction or reinforcement, the dog knows WHAT to expect and WHY it has been executed.

How do you teach a useful whoa without verbal? You can use a check cord and then overlay the collar, but what good does that do you? Lets say you want to go into a store and need to make the dog stay. How do you tell him to stay if he doesn't know verbal whoa? Really, it doesn't make a lot of sense to me. I also think that done incorrectly it can make a very, very, tentative dog because he never knows when the "zap" is coming.

I'm kind of old and set in my ways, but someone would have to convince me that it's better to teach silent whoa than verbal whoa. I don't get it. :? :?
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How Often Should I Shoot a Quail or Pigeon

Post by scsims » Thu Aug 21, 2014 2:57 pm

I've read in the book that mo doesn't use the e collar nick if the dog has scent of a bird.

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Re: How Often Should I Shoot a Quail or Pigeon

Post by gonehuntin' » Thu Aug 21, 2014 3:37 pm

I haven't read Mo's book but I'll tell you this: follow it step by step and don't mix in other programs or advice. Mo is a great trainer and I have the greatest respect for him. I think you've missed something in the book.
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Re: How Often Should I Shoot a Quail or Pigeon

Post by aulrich » Thu Aug 21, 2014 4:51 pm

Non verbal whoa would be useful to me in this weekend's UT test. I have not done enough repetitions with my dog to be able to walk past him and flush a bird without a whoa, if I whoa him he stands his birds without he is iify. So on the first bird I will eat the deduction and whoa him (I have been working a hand signal as well), so no chance of a prize 1 unless the next two birds go clean without a whoa.

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Re: How Often Should I Shoot a Quail or Pigeon

Post by Meller » Thu Aug 21, 2014 4:53 pm

gonehuntin' wrote:I haven't read Mo's book but I'll tell you this: follow it step by step and don't mix in other programs or advice. Mo is a great trainer and I have the greatest respect for him. I think you've missed something in the book.
I agree about missing something in the book; but I believe that if the stand steady drill is done in it's entirety, where the dog understands completely and has been corrected non verbal that I have very little need for a verbal whoa, but can be added if felt necessary ; I personally don't wish to distract the dog and the concentration while pointing the bird, let it be between the bird and dog. But I feel it's no big deal either way. :)

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Re: How Often Should I Shoot a Quail or Pigeon

Post by gonehuntin' » Thu Aug 21, 2014 5:12 pm

I agree that whoa should never be used around birds; the birds ARE whoa! You may be right in that it doesn't make much difference one way or another.
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Re: How Often Should I Shoot a Quail or Pigeon

Post by gonehuntin' » Thu Aug 21, 2014 5:16 pm

aulrich wrote: I have not done enough repetitions with my dog to be able to walk past him and flush a bird without a whoa, if I whoa him he stands his birds without he is iify.
Sounds like he needs a lot more launcher work. I would never take a dog into a trial "wishin' and hopin" . If they aren't solid they get trial wise, then you've got problems.
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Re: How Often Should I Shoot a Quail or Pigeon

Post by birddogger » Thu Aug 21, 2014 6:05 pm

gonehuntin' wrote:A bird doesn't teach obedience; man does. A bird and launcher teaches a dog that he can't move around a bird or he will flush it. Some NEVER learn this.

Whoa is simply an obedience command like sit, down, here. YOUR dog needs WHOA, because he is moving when YOU do. Now, you may be able to teach him not to ever move by using launchers, but my PERSONAL opinion is that he learns obedience first or with the launchers. They are two totally different things. Teach him whoa in the yard so you can walk around him, leave him, and come back to him. Whoa has NOTHING to do with birds and every thing to do with obedience.

Everyone assumes their dog will eventually stop busting birds on their own. That is not true. Some think it great fun and if not physically stopped, will delight in doing it all of their lives.
AMEN!! AMEN !! I have seen it too often.

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Re: How Often Should I Shoot a Quail or Pigeon

Post by Sharon » Thu Aug 21, 2014 6:11 pm

So you teach whoa in that way , as an obedience command apart from birds, for every dog you get/have had? You never assume a dog may teach himself to be steady , because he knows if he moves the bird will be gone/ no shot or retrieve either?
I've always started with "assuming" and then if the dog doesn't get it , then teach whoa as a command.
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Re: How Often Should I Shoot a Quail or Pigeon

Post by gonehuntin' » Thu Aug 21, 2014 6:25 pm

Sharon, Whoa is just an obedience command and never used around birds other than maybe a time or two when they're young. I let the traps teach them whoa. When they come in on a trap on a cc, I never say a word. Once the pup points, if he even moves head or tail, I pop the bird and tip him over when he chases. If he keeps jumping in on the bird, I will get a bit rough with him. I'll tell him NO, WHOA! pick him up and give him a shake and set him back on the spot of his indiscretion.

I'm usually very quiet around a dog on birds though, RARELY saying anything and just letting the flighted bird whoa for me. It is only if I have a dog I perceive to be a potential outlaw that I shake them up a bit. Most will learn from the launcher alone.

So you see what I'm saying Sharon is that whoa is used as stay is used, for obedience when in the truck, before going through a door, at feed time, etc. It is rarely ever used in the presence of birds and in fact with most dogs, has nothing to do with birds. Is that clearer, or am I still wading in muddy water?
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Re: How Often Should I Shoot a Quail or Pigeon

Post by aulrich » Thu Aug 21, 2014 6:51 pm

In essence I do have a problem, but that is the point of testing, to see the holes when your dog is set to a standard, and I paid for my test at the beginning of summer so it's not like I will chicken out, just because I did not get the level of polish I wanted. Do I wish I had 30-40 more bird shot over him, yes I do, but such is life. He'll hold point i'll walk up and whoa him and he will stand his bird, but that is not a prize one.

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Re: How Often Should I Shoot a Quail or Pigeon

Post by birddogger » Thu Aug 21, 2014 7:03 pm

Sharon wrote:So you teach whoa in that way , as an obedience command apart from birds, for every dog you get/have had? You never assume a dog may teach himself to be steady , because he knows if he moves the bird will be gone/ no shot or retrieve either?
I've always started with "assuming" and then if the dog doesn't get it , then teach whoa as a command.
Sharon, I always teach the whoa command even if it has nothing to do with birds. I want my dogs to stop and stand still on command whether at home or in the field. I am pretty sure I saved one of my dog's life one time with that command. I have had dogs that became steady with opportunities on wild birds. Heck, I have had a couple that were naturals and were steady on their birds from day one. But I have had many more that needed quite a bit of help from me to condition manners around birds. All I can go on is my personal experience with dogs, both mine and others.

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Re: How Often Should I Shoot a Quail or Pigeon

Post by Sharon » Thu Aug 21, 2014 7:56 pm

gonehuntin' wrote:Sharon, Whoa is just an obedience command and never used around birds other than maybe a time or two when they're young. I let the traps teach them whoa. When they come in on a trap on a cc, I never say a word. Once the pup points, if he even moves head or tail, I pop the bird and tip him over when he chases. If he keeps jumping in on the bird, I will get a bit rough with him. I'll tell him NO, WHOA! pick him up and give him a shake and set him back on the spot of his indiscretion.

I'm usually very quiet around a dog on birds though, RARELY saying anything and just letting the flighted bird whoa for me. It is only if I have a dog I perceive to be a potential outlaw that I shake them up a bit. Most will learn from the launcher alone.

So you see what I'm saying Sharon is that whoa is used as stay is used, for obedience when in the truck, before going through a door, at feed time, etc. It is rarely ever used in the presence of birds and in fact with most dogs, has nothing to do with birds. Is that clearer, or am I still wading in muddy water?
I got it. :) Where were you 20 years ago when I could have used that perspective? :wink:
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Re: How Often Should I Shoot a Quail or Pigeon

Post by gonehuntin' » Thu Aug 21, 2014 8:41 pm

Keeripes, I can't remember where I was 20 minutes ago let alone 20 years ago! :lol: :lol:
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Re: How Often Should I Shoot a Quail or Pigeon

Post by tailcrackin » Thu Aug 21, 2014 9:16 pm

The dog sounds young n green. I'd try and as fair as I could. Let it hunt an enjoy it. Manners will follow in time. You can't ever make a fair correction if dog never gets to make a mistake. It's a pup. Thanks Jonesy
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Re: How Often Should I Shoot a Quail or Pigeon

Post by aulrich » Sun Aug 24, 2014 2:22 pm

Found out about a new take on non verbal whoa,over lay whoa to the closing of a gun, walk up close the gun and go for the flush

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Re: How Often Should I Shoot a Quail or Pigeon

Post by Idylwyld » Sun Aug 31, 2014 5:46 pm

aulrich wrote:Found out about a new take on non verbal whoa,over lay whoa to the closing of a gun, walk up close the gun and go for the flush
You can also make a slight hissing noise as you walk around to flush. Dog can and will hear it. No one else can.
Or, hold your hand up like a traffic cop if you wish.
The word whoa means nothing to a dog or a horse, unless you teach it to mean something. Its a human thing we have attached to the process of training dogs and horses. It started with horses and gravitated to dogs. Substitute any word or sound you choose for whoa.

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