Springer Problem - Laying down on "Hup"

[Montana]

I have an 8 month old male springer I've been working with who lays down when I give the "Hup" command... He's fine when he is on a leash by my side... He'll "Hup" and stay sitting for several minutes... If I move around in front of him a few feet he'll remain sitting, but as soon as I drop the leash or move more than 4 or 5 feet away he lays down... I go back and lift him up into a sitting position, praise him up, etc. but so far it hasn't solved the problem... I've been working on this for the past two weeks every day without much success. I've had many Springers over the past 25 years or so and have never encountered this problem.. I'm a patient trainer and use a very gentle approach.... Springers can be a bit soft, but this guy really isn't....very happy, well adjusted dog, but I don't want him sitting when I give the command to sit... Any suggestions?

[gonehuntin']

Well, you could take this or leave it. I'm not as soft a trainer as you are. When I have a dog that does that, I teach them to sit up. First, teach them down, then teach them sit up. I teach them sit up by gently stepping on their front toes and commanding sit up. I know it seems counter intuitive to cure a problem by teaching the command that's causing your problem, but that's the way it's done.

[Sharon]

I'm no expert on spaniels but I have read that the pup's lying down will not automatically change to hup over time, by you moving the dog up.
Hup is sit and the dog hasn't transferred "sit" to " hup". Go back to teaching sit to hup off the field , here and there. Transition the same as you would going from the cc to the e collar. You say, "hup/sit" . Over time when he hears hup he knows sit will follow and you'll only have to say hup.
He's lying down as that is a safe spot for a dog when confused.

[Trekmoor]

So far I have never had a spaniel that lay down to the sit command but I have had a few dogs of other breeds that would do this. I found that once the pup realised it could see the birds fall or the rabbits run better when sitting than when lying down they soon ceased to lie down !

Bill T.

[DonF]

I've never taught hup to any dog. Had several Springer's but it was back in my killing days. I had a guy with a nice Setter that would sit when she was whoa'ed. Fix was simple. She was on a check cord so when she went down I pulled her back up with the check cord. Soon as her butt wa off the ground I let off the check cord and gave the whoa command again. Didn't take long to get it done. Soon as she started down I got her back up. The moment she got up, I whoa'ed her again. With her it was simply confusion, probably the same with your dog.

[mnaj_springer]

I know I don't have the experience of others here, but my first Springer was anything but a soft dog. With him it was correction, correction, correction, and well placed praise (he got distracted by praise or thought the job was done). When we were all said and done he was a confident dog that was in control.

[Doc E]

When I have a dog that does that, I teach them to sit up. First, teach them down, then teach them sit up. I teach them sit up by gently stepping on their front toes and commanding sit up. I know it seems counter intuitive to cure a problem by teaching the command that's causing your problem, but that's the way it's done.

That's exactly what I would do too.
I just use the command SIT and not Sit Up though (SIT means Sit).
.

[Montana]

I'm no expert on spaniels but I have read that the pup's lying down will not automatically change to hup over time, by you moving the dog up.
Hup is sit and the dog hasn't transferred "sit" to " hup". Go back to teaching sit to hup off the field , here and there. Transition the same as you would going from the cc to the e collar. You say, "hup/sit" . Over time when he hears hup he knows sit will follow and you'll only have to say hup.
He's lying down as that is a safe spot for a dog when confused.

Clarification: "Hup" is the spaniel command for "sit"...

I've had Springers for many, many years... I was counting up the gundogs I've had over the years and since 1973 I've had 16 Springers, 4 Setters, and 6 Chessies.... I've bred Springers for the past 26 years.. I've just never encountered a dog that would lay down on the "Hup" command.. Teaching to lie down and then to sit up from that position makes sense. I'll give it a try. Thanks!

[gonehuntin']

The advantage of teaching them to hup and to lay down then the sit up or hup from the down position, is it then they understand both commands and becoming nicer house dog.

It takes patience and don't step too hard on the front paws; they are very sensitive. I generally found it took about three days for them to make the transition and understand totally what you were teaching them.

Now, once learned, you always have a correction available to you if the dog downs instead of hupping.

[polmaise]

Never knew any dog , spaniel or otherwise that was hungry enough to lie down with a piece of liver raised high enough above it's nose to create a sit! or Hup! ..or Banana command if you want ....

[Montana]

Never knew any dog , spaniel or otherwise that was hungry enough to lie down with a piece of liver raised high enough above it's nose to create a sit! or Hup! ..or Banana command if you want ....

That works to get them to sit, but not to stay sitting or to immediately sit at a distance when you give the command. Using treats to make a young pup sit certainly works quickly, but if used to much they'll come running to you when you give the "Hup" and sit when they get to you, which is not what you want a flushing dog to do.

[polmaise]

throwing that liver over the top of their head on a stop whistle sure stops them with a sit
How you go from there is your choice .

[welsh]

Never knew any dog , spaniel or otherwise that was hungry enough to lie down with a piece of liver raised high enough above it's nose to create a sit! or Hup! ..or Banana command if you want ....

That works to get them to sit, but not to stay sitting or to immediately sit at a distance when you give the command. Using treats to make a young pup sit certainly works quickly, but if used to much they'll come running to you when you give the "Hup" and sit when they get to you.

Only if you reward them for it.

Stand directly in front of the dog and give him "Down." Then give him "Hup" and reward him. After this is learned, step back a pace and repeat. Do not reward the dog unless he hups in place. Always go to the dog to reward him; don't be lazy and recall him from the hup. Gradually increase the distance. The dog will never start running to you to get the prize if he has learned close-in that he only gets rewarded if he stays.

Legions of people have trained the sit-stay using just that method.

[Montana]

Thanks all for the tips.......back to work!!!

[gundogguy]

I have an 8 month old male springer I've been working with who lays down when I give the "Hup" command... He's fine when he is on a leash by my side... He'll "Hup" and stay sitting for several minutes... If I move around in front of him a few feet he'll remain sitting, but as soon as I drop the leash or move more than 4 or 5 feet away he lays down... I go back and lift him up into a sitting position, praise him up, etc. but so far it hasn't solved the problem... I've been working on this for the past two weeks every day without much success. I've had many Springers over the past 25 years or so and have never encountered this problem.. I'm a patient trainer and use a very gentle approach.... Springers can be a bit soft, but this guy really isn't....very happy, well adjusted dog, but I don't want him sitting when I give the command to sit... Any suggestions?

Have seen this many times over the years with many Spaniel pups. The old Montgomery Ward a retailer fro the 19th and early 20th century phrase best fits this interesting growth and development issue " Eye Level Is Buy level"

Help your pup get closer look at your eyes in the beginning of this process. Have pup or dog return and sit on an elevated surface it is a great confidence builder also used during the relieving process and a way to build the "presentation delivery" and also during the steady to wing and shot process

see video Springer pup is 14 weeks old at the time of video production. However this works for dogs at all ages

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=K0CRzD9-mC4

[chrokeva]

I have been trying to teach my spaniel pup (4 1/2 month) both the hup and lie down. It is no problem at all as long as I use some sort of body cue (even bringing her to a hup from a lie down). I have been trying to get away from the body cues with her (kind of feels like I am cheating since body cues make it so easy for a puppy) but she just is not getting it yet....maybe she is a bit young to grasp the concept of listening without the help of body cues? or maybe these dogs are just use to getting help with body cues since they are so close working? Not sure how much I should insist on her listening only to my voice.....maybe someone that is more familiar with spaniels can clarify for me?

[gundogguy]

I have been trying to teach my spaniel pup (4 1/2 month) both the hup and lie down. It is no problem at all as long as I use some sort of body cue (even bringing her to a hup from a lie down). I have been trying to get away from the body cues with her (kind of feels like I am cheating since body cues make it so easy for a puppy) but she just is not getting it yet....maybe she is a bit young to grasp the concept of listening without the help of body cues? or maybe these dogs are just use to getting help with body cues since they are so close working? Not sure how much I should insist on her listening only to my voice.....maybe someone that is more familiar with spaniels can clarify for me?

It's not a Spaniel thing, it's a puppy thing! Teach one behavior before you go to the next. Remember you have to leave "something" in it for the dog.

[chrokeva]

It's not a Spaniel thing, it's a puppy thing! Teach one behavior before you go to the next. Remember you have to leave "something" in it for the dog.

Makes a lot of sense! I need to keep reminding myself she is just a puppy and pushing her too fast is kind of like trying to teach a 5 year old to build a rocket ship.

[MikeB]

Montana,
If Hup means Sit does it also mean for the dog to Stay?
In my world as an obedience instructor this isn't any different than teaching a dog to sit and stay at the end of a 6 ft. leash or on a 30 ft. check cord. One thing I noticed you said is your post is that after you correct the dog for laying down by pulling the dog up into a sit you praise the dog. I think the dog understands you get praised when you lie down. If you correct the dog don't praise it. Praise when it does it correctly with out a correction.

What type of collar are you using when training?

If it was a chain slip collar (choke collar) then the moment the dog starts to lie down make a very quick jerk of the leash upwards before the dog lies down. Teach the dog on leash up to 6 ft. to sit stay at the end of the leash and when you move around the dog before you progress to the check cord. Then only advance out 2 feet every 3 or so days. If the dog is holding the sit/stay at 8 ft try 10 ft. Always start every exercise each day with what the dog did perfect the day before. Then you can advance the distance a little at a time.