First Bird Exposure - Dog didn't point

[formula13x]

short version
Dog finds planted bird, and brings it to me. Fetches a thrown dead bird, but never points at bird.




Longer version
Ginger is an 11 month old female brittany.

I bought 5 pharoah quail and brought them home to train.
I dizzied the bird and planted it in the yard.
At first she found the bird pawed at it a bit and then totally ignored it.

I picked the bird up and let her know it was OK to be around it, let her smell it. The bird got loose and flew a bit (dizzy still and hit the ground). My dog acknowledged it and went away.

I wanted to test her sound conditioning a bit, so I took a cap gun (sounds like 22) and tossed bird into the air and fired a couple times. She retrieved the bird.

I took her inside and went back out and planted the bird.
I let her out.. She finds the bird quickly, fetches it and brings it too me..
She is very light mouthed and I was able to do this for about a 1/2 an hour to an hour. I would toss and fire the bird every once in a while as well.


She can find the bird (even if buried completely under leaves) within 2 minutes in a 1/4 of an acre. She finds them quickly, then brings them to me.

I was amazed with her nose... Very sharp, and she is light mouthed and a better retriever than my Golden Retriever was, but she never once pointed.

I made the whole thing fun and didn't want to confuse her by saying "NO" when we were going through the "hide and seek" bit. As this was her first expereince and I wanted her to be comfortable with the birds.


Am I doing this OK? Is the dog doing things alright? Why wouldn't she point?

(I've seen her point flys in the house, and doves once when I let her outside)

[GsPJustin]

I will let others critique the process. However, don't worry about her not pointing the bird the first time. Just let it flop around and let her get excited about them. Then work on the point.

[kninebirddog]

When you have quail that will not fly it will not help the pup to learn to point
That is why i do not like cortunix.aka pharoh quail they are fat lazy birds

If the birds do not get away when she runs in on them she has nothing to help her learn to point
but it does sound like your getting the retrieving part down

[ohiogsp]

The reason a dog points and holds is because it knows if it takes one more step the bird will fly and then be gone. If the dog can just go get the bird why would it point it?

[formula13x]

Wow! That makes a lot of sense! Thanks!

So should I stop with the pharoah and go get some bob white? Or should I just try to get her on some wild bird? (I'm afraid of taking her out and not finding any wild bird and her not having any fun with that particular field expereince). Although I do need to get in the field and work on "come" in the field.

Or, is what I'm doing still an OK training, and I just need to get some other birds as well? I've never done this before, so please critique the process for me.. I don't want to do something I'm not supposed to and I can appreciate the critique.

[kninebirddog]

Do both...get some bobs and go hunitng if your not finding anything put a bird out and let her find it with her nose..be sure not to dizzy the bird to much ..you do want it to get a way to help her learn to point it

[Margaret]

That poor bird.

Far too artificial scenario. YOu have now taught her she can go and catch a bird.

I'd stop completely with the dizzy and planted birds and look for somewhere to run her where she might hopefully find a few live birds and begin to understand she cannot get right up to them. This is far more stimulating for a dog, and if you sound excited about the bird flushing she will get more enthusiastic and hopefully more cautious. IMO

[NE Vizsla]

I agree with knine on this one, the pup needs birds birds birds..wild is best but bobwhites would work if they are good flyers.

[Prairie Hunter]

Try using chuckar for training, if you can get them. They cost more than quail, but they are usually strong flyers. Less chance the pup will catch one.

[Casper]

Far too artificial scenario. YOu have now taught her she can go and catch a bird.

Sometimes it takes a bit of this to build a prey drive strong enough for a dog to want the birds bad enough that they will want to be searching for them.

FWIW

[formula13x]

Thanks again for the input.

I'm going to try to get some Bob White and go hunting.. Maybe we'll find some wild birds as well. I know where I can get some Chuckar (around $6 a peice though). I'll pick some of them up if the Bob's don't work out so well. With the Bob's I'm hoping the might land in the field a couple times (Maybe I'll get about I'll get about 3 points per bird) before losing them in the woodline (When they do that with me it seems like they always want to land high in a tree somewhere).

What about a bird launcher? Would that help?

[ohiogsp]

Remote launchers are the only way to go. They are great if you can get some. One of the best training birds out there is the hungarian partrige. I doubt the quail will help you much unless your dog is whoa broke.

[Wapiti]

The old wing-on-a-string tactic with a little modification should work. Take a live pigeon and tied it's legs to a string that is attached to a long stiff pole, like a broom handle, or something that will allow you to swing the bird around. Let your dog loose and then place the bird about 10 ft away from the dog on the ground where he can see it. As the dog lunges for the bird pull the bird away allowing it to flap and drop it about 10 feet from the dog. Repeat as dog tries to catch bird. Dog should, after several unsuccessful attempts at catching the bird, stop and point the bird. The dog is merely sight pointing at this time but that’s O.K. It's very important to not let the dog catch any birds. Once he is sight pointing stop for that session. Repeat for a second session if needed, then stop. For the next session move on to scent pointing.

For scent pointing start out by using the same method except hid the bird in some cover. Bring the dog into the scent cone about 10-12 feet away, an assistant holding a CC with the dog can be useful for this but allow the dog to do what he will short of catching the bird. Using an assistant will allow you to stand by the bird with pole in hand. When the dog scents the bird he may point or he may move toward the bird, though typically in a cautious fashion. If he moves toward the bird allow him to only take a couple steps and then quickly lift the bird out allowing it to flap and try to fly away, turn your back to the dog and quickly pull the bird into you and out of sight of dog and walk away. Repeating this a couple time should be all it takes and the dog should start locking-up on point. Only use the exercises until dog is scent pointing then stop. If the dog has the pointing instinct in him/her it should catch on quickly.
After that I'd recommend using a remote launcher to plant birds. Use the same method except without the pole. An assistant is not needed using a remote launcher. Important note when using the launcher is; after dog has established point if he/she lifts a leg to move toward the bird, immediately launch the bird.

[EWSIV]

Or should I just try to get her on some wild bird? (I'm afraid of taking her out and not finding any wild bird and her not having any fun with that particular field expereince).

I wouldn't worry about her not having fun. If you let her run, lay off the whistle, and just let her explore/hunt, then she won't know the difference between hunting and a walk in the park.

I took my 8mo. Britt hunting a couple of weeks ago. We didn't see a bird or even hear one whistle. He hunted hard for three hours two days in a row.

[formula13x]

Thanks again for the responses.

I haven't had the chance to go to the field (or pick up some Bob's yet).
But I did try a version of the "wing on a string" as suggested.

I created a harness for one of the pharoah, and tied some fishing line from the end of the pole to the harness..

I stood up on my kids play structure, and let the kids let Ginger out.. She went nose to the ground and found the bird.. I yanked it up into the play structure (bird flying), and repeated this several times.

She started pointing it!!! Yea!!! But only for about 5-10 seconds before she would lunge at the bird. She caught it once (I wasn't quick enough on her jump), but I got down and had her retrieve it to me.

I did notice one thing though, she gave me the bird, was a little bit more reluctant to give it to me (perhaps because she had to work more for it)?

Is it a good idea, or a bad idea to give her a part of the bird when I'm cleaning it? I've been giving her the neck and small peices of it when I clean the bird out. Is this a bad or good idea?

[Brittguy]

Another version of string and pole. Get a long pole or PVC pipe about 15-20ft. Bury a piece of larger diameter pipe in the ground. Then you can insert the long pole in the buried pipe. Attach a string to top of pole , string should be longer than height of pole. Now you have sort of a maypole that you can attach a pigeon this should be on bare ground so the dog can see bird walking around.Checkcord dog in on the bird,the bird will flush,fly around maybe a halve circle and come down. Advantage of this method is that you have control of the dog and you can encourage him to point with resistance of checkcord and it is unlikely he will catch the bird.
If you use release traps be sure to release bird before dog gets too close. The action and noise of trap will scare some puppies.

[Wapiti]

Nothing good can come from feeding a bird dog birds or bird parts. Why take a chance at creating bad behavior.
Keep going with the bird on a pole routine. The dog at this time may not sight point for a very long period of time without lunging at the bird that's O.K. Once you established that he/she will sight point move on to scent pointing. When the dog will reliably scent point then I'd highly recommend using a remote launcher. The launcher will help in getting the dog steadied up and holding point.
At some point in the future I'd go back to having the dog visually stand steady with a pigeon walking on the ground in front of him/her. I do that with my dogs and they become rock solid. I've seen a rooster pheasant walk right past my GSP front legs and he held steady.
On another occasion I watched a wild rooster that my dog was pointing, walk out of the cover it was in and out into the open. My dog held steady until the bird was about 30 yards away then he began tailing the bird but at a distance. It was funny because the rooster never ran but slowly walked away. This went on for a streach of about 80 yards and then the rooster finally flew. That occured out of season.

[DGFavor]

Or should I just try to get her on some wild bird? (I'm afraid of taking her out and not finding any wild bird and her not having any fun with that particular field expereince).

If you've got this available to you then this is absolutely the best way to go. Never be afraid of getting skunked - there's learning for the dog just being out there. Any bird dog is gonna enjoy just being out there and you will have a much better bird dog that runs a natural hunting pattern searching for birds planted by Mother Nature. I always hesitate on this forum to say "native birds, native birds, native birds" and try to be sensitive to the fact that this just isn't an option for many. That said, attempting to cure man made problems with other man made contraptions just doesn't make a lot of sense to me either.

I wouldn't worry about her not having fun. If you let her run, lay off the whistle, and just let her explore/hunt, then she won't know the difference between hunting and a walk in the park.

I took my 8mo. Britt hunting a couple of weeks ago. We didn't see a bird or even hear one whistle. He hunted hard for three hours two days in a row.

Yup, right on!

[kninebirddog]

If you have someone that can help you Tether a bird and hide it have the assistant stand away from the bird. Bring the dog across downwind about 5 10 feet of the bird. when the dog makes scent contact the dog will turn toeards the bird..when he does check the cord and stop the dogs forward advancement. Check and slack till the dog is standing there once the dog is standing there not pulling on the checkcord then have your assitant advance towards the bird. when the dog starts to advance have the assistant stop and only advance when the dog is standing there. Once the dog is standing then flush the bird having the assiant hold on to the tether flying the bird in front of the dog. and walk away. Repeat
If you have a very good run next time or the time after where the dog scent stops and hold well for the flush Quit there on a good note.
come back a day or 2 later do the same thing

I do not like the pole thing as I find many dogs get real quick about learning to look for objects they can see
with an assitant you can hide the bird and the though the dog may see the assitant and eventually know there will be a bird somewhere it becomes more of a hunt for the dog to find out where with help from the handler
Besure your bring the dog across the scent cone ..many new handlers have a tendancy to walk the dog right to the bird

[formula13x]

I took her for a hunt, and shot a bird over her.

We came up on two bob's. The first one she busted and it flew before she even got to see it. It only flew about 30 yards (I didn't shooot, because I was wanting her to have at it a couple times). The second time, she busted it again, and flew again (much farther). When we were on our way out to it again she pointed another bird, for about 4 seconds, before I could get up next to her she flushed it.. I went ahead and shot the bird and she retrieved it to hand for me..

I never could find the original bird again (Unless it was the same one).. We hunted for about 30 more minutes for that one bird until it got dark on me.


But I call this a success.. She's not gun-shy (sound conditioning worked great I suppose)..
And I got to kill a bird off of her.. I was very excited.

She's still not the best pointer yet (I'll work on that with what you mentioned), but she's an awesome retriever..

I'll stop feeding her the birds.. I feel like I should reward her somehow though..

[ezzy333]

You just did. You let her retrieve and patted her on the head and told her good girl. Thats all of the reward she needs or will even understand.

Ezzy

[NE Vizsla]

Just to let you know your not alone my 10 month old Vizlsa just pointed his very 1st bird the other day. A Rooster of all things to boot. I was very happy ! Its not uncommon for some bird dogs to take longer then others as far as developing there skills. Dont worry.