Puppy Training

[scsims]

Hello, I'm new here and just had my first post over in the intro forum. I'm looking for on advise on how to proceed with my Brittany puppy. He is just now 16 weeks old, and I've been working with him on basic obedience and some go at his own pace bird intro work. I started out by reading a couple of books first "How to Speed Train Your Bird Dog" and then at the advice of a local trainer I've been going off "Training with Mo" as of late. I did the awakening the nose exercises that are in the first book mentioned, he caught very quick with that. Then moved on to a dead pigeon, let him pack it around for a while and then a some carded pigeons. He would point them some, before chasing them, he caught a couple and hasn't showed any fear of them thrashing around. We then made the short trip to the trainer and he let play with a dead quail, then he planted a live quail that he pointed and then chased as it flew away and repointed when he found him again. I plan on making another trip there as soon as our schedules can match up. We take long daily walks around the farm where he hunts anything and everything he can find. We hear sparse quail on our walks and we jumped one up the other day, I saw where it landed and brought him downwind. He got excited and stopped about 3 feet from it when it flushed again.

Now I'm not sure how to proceed from here, I'm planting pigeons a few times a week and he's doing good finding them and I have to hold the check cord some so he won't catch them before they flush. Should I back off the pigeon work? Or keep on keeping on.....

Any advice is greatly appreciated.

Riley pointing a carded pigeon.

[AZ Brittany Guy]

Nice looking pup, enjoy him. It sounds like you are doing a pretty good job and have given him good bird exposure. I would dial back on the bird work for a while. You have done your "imprint" work and now just socialize, exposure to running in different types of (safe) terrain and let him gain some independence. I am a believer that you should let the first year be the pups year as stated by "Delmar Smith" with no pressure around birds. You can start the "come to you, go with you and stand still" yard work in short 10 minute sessions a couple times a day. I would not let him catch any more birds. Don't be tempted to go too fast.

[KwikIrish]

Pick a method and stick with it. There are many roads leading to the goal. Chose one and go for it.
That being said, we use MrLindly's methods and its awesome for us. He is on here frequently and always quick to reply. Screen name is Maurice.
Finally, this is just a baby! Enjoy your puppy stages and let it all be fun and games! Save the formal training for later!
Good luck!

[Sharon]

I think you are off to a good start. "Training with Mo" is a good plan. Follow one plan to the end. I think it takes almost 2 year to have a steady dog. There is no hurry; pup is only 16 weeks old . Socialization and growing independence are the most important things right now. If you don't have wild birds from which the pup can learn , use pigeons.(I wouldn't use pen raised quail yet.)

(Welcome to the forum.):)

[RayGubernat]

I agree with what most have already said.

I would definitely dial back the planted or carded birdwork. If you are taking the dog on walks in areas where there is assorted wildlife and the occasional native gamebird, that is most definitely all the dog needs right now. That is actually pretty awesome. The greatest gift you can give to your youngster is the opportunity to figure out how to use its abilities to find game. That should work pretty well for you also.

Bond with the youngster. Make the dog your friend.

A dog will come with you and stay with you for two reasons...first because you trained it to stay with you and it knows it must. Second, because it likes you and respects you and wants to be with you...because you are where the fun is at.

Guess which one I prefer?

The others have cautioned you to take your time and not rush through the training. I wholeheartedly agree with that...especially the field portion. You can do obedience work, mixed with plenty of play, in the yard. A dog that learns to listen and respond in the yard is a dog that is predisposed to listen and respond in the field, when the time comes for that.

The MOST difficult task you will face is your own impatience. ALWAYS remember ...this is a PUPPY...with a puppy's attention span, a puppy's level of understanding, a puppy's almost total trust in YOUR judgement and a puppy's overwhelming desire to please.

Enjoy all of that...savor it ...treasure it...protect it...nurture it. TAKE YOUR TIME.

But most of all...have fun together.

Puppies, especially well bred bird dog puppies, want more than just about anything, to find birds. Right up next to that is their desire to please and to belong. They WANT to do what we want them to do. Pretty much anytime a puppy is not doing what we want them to do is because WE did not "explain" what we wanted in a way the pup can understand.

Sooooo, anytime training is not going well... QUIT before you get aggravated. Quit before something bad happens. There is always later on, there is always tomorrow. This is supposed to be fun.

RayG

[DonF]

I suspect your own impatience is already in the way! It's 16 weeks old, let it be a puppy. Take it on those walks all you can. If it starts finding and even pointing "bleep" birds, don't discourage it. A "bleep" bird is a bird and the pup is learning to hunt! If it points and actually hold a bird long enough for you to flush it great! Give it a good boy and go on. If it flush's the game bird and chases it, keep your mouth shut and keep going. Let it be a puppy!

Different ways to train a bird dog and I don't start much formal training until the pup is somewhere between maybe 8mos and a year old. The4 pup will tell me when it's ready. My Stormy is 6mos now and not ready, still to much puppy in him, for me! Don't take away it's puppy life to have a young bird dog. Just watch him and when he's ready, you'll know. He's going to be learning to hunt and to handle cover with these walks. He'll learn independence and to keep track of you, you just keep your mouth shut and walk! It will learn more in that first year on it';s own than anything of value you can teach it. One thing that always seems true to me is the pup started out to soon does great the first year and them comes second year madness, seems like the pup forgot everything you taught it the first year. I believe what your really seeing is a pup that wants to do everything it can to make you happy but is really a bit insecure, turn into a adult that decides to try things his way! let the pup out grow that while it's a pup and instead of training a puppy, train a teen ager and it will remember, second year madness goes away because you didn't train a pup. Rather you allowed it to learn a whole bunch on it's own and when it was ready you taught it the skills it needs.

A lot of people disagree with me on that and and end up with a bird dog anyway but, most tell of the second year madness, I don't believe you have to endure it though. oh and one more thing, there is no such thing as speed training if you want a good dog, take your time and bring the dog along as it's ready. And one more thing, very important, while your letting the monster be a monster, spend the time learning to read your pup. Most people have problems for little other reason than they have no clue what the dog is telling them with it's body language.

[Sharon]

I suspect your own impatience is already in the way! It's 16 weeks old, let it be a puppy. Take it on those walks all you can. If it starts finding and even pointing "bleep" birds, don't discourage it. A "bleep" bird is a bird and the pup is learning to hunt! If it points and actually hold a bird long enough for you to flush it great! Give it a good boy and go on. If it flush's the game bird and chases it, keep your mouth shut and keep going. Let it be a puppy!

Different ways to train a bird dog and I don't start much formal training until the pup is somewhere between maybe 8mos and a year old. The4 pup will tell me when it's ready. My Stormy is 6mos now and not ready, still to much puppy in him, for me! Don't take away it's puppy life to have a young bird dog. Just watch him and when he's ready, you'll know. He's going to be learning to hunt and to handle cover with these walks. He'll learn independence and to keep track of you, you just keep your mouth shut and walk! It will learn more in that first year on it';s own than anything of value you can teach it. One thing that always seems true to me is the pup started out to soon does great the first year and them comes second year madness, seems like the pup forgot everything you taught it the first year. I believe what your really seeing is a pup that wants to do everything it can to make you happy but is really a bit insecure, turn into a adult that decides to try things his way! let the pup out grow that while it's a pup and instead of training a puppy, train a teen ager and it will remember, second year madness goes away because you didn't train a pup. Rather you allowed it to learn a whole bunch on it's own and when it was ready you taught it the skills it needs.

A lot of people disagree with me on that and and end up with a bird dog anyway but, most tell of the second year madness, I don't believe you have to endure it though. oh and one more thing, there is no such thing as speed training if you want a good dog, take your time and bring the dog along as it's ready. And one more thing, very important, while your letting the monster be a monster, spend the time learning to read your pup. Most people have problems for little other reason than they have no clue what the dog is telling them with it's body language.

Excellent p0st! A+

[scsims]

Thanks for the great advice guys.... It really helps. Got a couple more questions that I've been pondering.

When should I begin to introduce gun fire..... I know he will need to be totally focused on birds, but when do you all begin to do this?

When and what the best way to get them to swim, he will go in the pond but will turn back when his feet start to not touch anymore?

Thanks,
Scott

[Becassier]

Along with "Training with Mo", I would also recommend - "Training Tips Your Bird Dog Will Love" ~ both books written by Martha Greenlee.
We give this book to our puppy families, Martha has a way through her words, to offer a unique opportunity to understand the process/theory of developing their puppy. I would recommend you buy 2 books keep one in your training gear and one at home..

Enjoy your puppy!

[Ricky Ticky Shorthairs]

Sounds like you have a nice pup. He likes birds and uses his nose. I would introduce the gun at this point, then back off bird work completely for a couple months. Concentrate on letting him be a puppy and just let him be your buddy. Get him to go with you and come to you when you call him.

Take him on his runs on your farm and if he finds wild birds, take the opportunity to fire a blank pistol over him after he's gun broke.

The first year needs to be about fun.

Doug

[BellaSpinone]

I leaned from perfect start & finish videos, they are now on DVD.

[Sharon]

Thanks for the great advice guys.... It really helps. Got a couple more questions that I've been pondering.

When should I begin to introduce gun fire..... I know he will need to be totally focused on birds, but when do you all begin to do this?

When and what the best way to get them to swim, he will go in the pond but will turn back when his feet start to not touch anymore?

Thanks,
Scott

Too young to worry about this. In a couple months , I throw cheesies in the water after giving him some on the bank. I also go in with him. Until then let him dabble in the water as he wants.

Gun dog conditioning time depends on the dog - not before 6-8 months at least for me.

[polmaise]

When and what the best way to get them to swim, he will go in the pond but will turn back when his feet start to not touch anymore?

Thanks,
Scott

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UpdsdOmyuA8

[RayGubernat]

Thanks for the great advice guys.... It really helps. Got a couple more questions that I've been pondering.

When should I begin to introduce gun fire..... I know he will need to be totally focused on birds, but when do you all begin to do this?

When and what the best way to get them to swim, he will go in the pond but will turn back when his feet start to not touch anymore?

Thanks,
Scott

Scott -

First -

PLEASE...get out of the "when" frame of mind. Timeframes are for humans. Timeframes do not work for dogs especially when training. The only "when" is when the dog is ready and when the situation is right. I know that is not the answer you are looking for, but, that is the correct answer. Dogs do not look at calendars.

You can introduce gunfire anytime...depending on the individual dog. If the dog is in full chase and totally absorbed by the bird, you can touch off a 12 gauge and it would probably be OK. If the dog is pottering around, unsure of itself and its surroundings...a child's cap gun might be too much.

As to your other question, there are those who are better equipped to answer, but I would suggest introducing the puppy to water when it is warm enough for YOU to get in the water with the dog. If you walk out beyond the depth where the pup can touch bottom, you give the puppy something it might just want to to swim to...YOU!

Always remember...when the pup is ready...is when it is ready. Not before. When it SHOWS you it is ready for the next step, by its body language and its actions and responses...it is ready. If you look, if you watch...you will be able to tell.

Have fun with your youngster.

RayG

Instead of "when"... you need to start thinking of "what". Training is a series of behaviors(or commands) that must be introduced, repeated and practiced by the dog. It is much more useful to think of "when" in the context of "when" the puppy has shown familiarity and is comfortable with behavior X or, if you prefer...command X, THEN is the "when" it is appropriate to begin expecting increasing responsiveness or, if you prefer, obedience to the behavior or command.

The "when" needs to become "after the dog does this" and perhaps "before I introduce the dog to that". That is the kind of timeframe a dog understands. I do not mean to preach or be pedantic, but thinking in terms of "when" is a very hard thing for a person to "unlearn".

[polmaise]

Aye, See a stick ,cut it !

[Sharon]

Thanks for the great advice guys.... It really helps. Got a couple more questions that I've been pondering.

When should I begin to introduce gun fire..... I know he will need to be totally focused on birds, but when do you all begin to do this?

When and what the best way to get them to swim, he will go in the pond but will turn back when his feet start to not touch anymore?

Thanks,
Scott

Scott -

First -

PLEASE...get out of the "when" frame of mind. Timeframes are for humans. Timeframes do not work for dogs especially when training. The only "when" is when the dog is ready and when the situation is right. I know that is not the answer you are looking for, but, that is the correct answer. Dogs do not look at calendars.

You can introduce gunfire anytime...depending on the individual dog. If the dog is in full chase and totally absorbed by the bird, you can touch off a 12 gauge and it would probably be OK. If the dog is pottering around, unsure of itself and its surroundings...a child's cap gun might be too much.

As to your other question, there are those who are better equipped to answer, but I would suggest introducing the puppy to water when it is warm enough for YOU to get in the water with the dog. If you walk out beyond the depth where the pup can touch bottom, you give the puppy something it might just want to to swim to...YOU!

Always remember...when the pup is ready...is when it is ready. Not before. When it SHOWS you it is ready for the next step, by its body language and its actions and responses...it is ready. If you look, if you watch...you will be able to tell.

Have fun with your youngster.

RayG

Instead of "when"... you need to start thinking of "what". Training is a series of behaviors(or commands) that must be introduced, repeated and practiced by the dog. It is much more useful to think of "when" in the context of "when" the puppy has shown familiarity and is comfortable with behavior X or, if you prefer...command X, THEN is the "when" it is appropriate to begin expecting increasing responsiveness or, if you prefer, obedience to the behavior or command.

The "when" needs to become "after the dog does this" and perhaps "before I introduce the dog to that". That is the kind of timeframe a dog understands. I do not mean to preach or be pedantic, but thinking in terms of "when" is a very hard thing for a person to "unlearn".

........................
.
Well said Ray, but that kind of thinking only comes with experience. I remember sitting down when I had my first gundog and making "the plan" .." this week we will, next week ........ and at the end of year one we will win our first SD stake." LOL
When your new at this you want a plan by week ! We know it is not possible, but I fully understand what the original poster is looking for. I may be wrong but harder to come up with a plan for a pointing breed than a retriever.

scsims: Pick a plan , but don't put definite timelines on it.

[polmaise]

That's nice .