Quail vs. Pigeon for training pups

[kar6man]

Hi everyone, I'm looking for some input on which birds to get for training this season. I've got a GWP pup that will be here in mid-April and I'm planning on building a coop and hopefully getting some birds before he arrives. I am trying to decide now between raising pigeon or bobwhite/ valley quail for training or should I have some of both? This will be the first pointer that I have trained. I'd like to get him introduced to birds in the first few weeks that I have him. I'd like him to start with quail and learning to track them, yet I don't want to create a situation where he could catch a bird. Would anyone suggest using pigeon first? Do not worry, I am just planning on doing some real informal introduction to the birds and letting him have fun, nothing serious. What are some pros/cons when it comes to pigeon vs quail for training? Can they be raised together in the same pen?

[BellaSpinone]

Pigeons.. Much heartier. Quail live to die. Pigeons recall very well. They reproduce on their own. Unless you lock the wings they will fly away. I don't work quail until my dogs are steady to fall. You do not need a permit to keep pigeons.

Buy the perfect start video...

[Sharon]

Wild birds are best but ..........pigeons - You want a bird that flies off hard , not flies a little ways and lands. Quail are good for dog to get some advanced steadying training.

"I'd like him to start with quail and learning to track them." quote
Why would you do this? Pointing breeds smell the air/use the wind , with a high head to locate a bird ; they don't track like a hound.

Suggest you buy a good training programme.

[AZ Brittany Guy]

To build prey drive I would use a couple of quail (smaller size) and let pup catch them, then I would switch to strong flying pigeons once you have built a good prey drive in them. No more catching birds after the introduction to quail.

[kar6man]

Thanks for the advice. I guess I was confused after reading the Chuck Johnson and Joan Bailey books. Thought they had suggested introducing with quail. Are quail more common when it gets to the formal training stages?

[bonasa]

I used quail with <4 month old pups. I use Jonny house birds that flush nicely, alternatively you could keep the birds in mostly darkness for a day with only water then release them in the woods. If they are flight conditioned they should fly real nice. In the woods the pups can't mark them down and are forced to use their nose. After that pigeons or wild birds until you take the chase away.

[Rod W]

I have used both, and find that most trainers that I know also use both. Get yourself some homing pigeons which reproduce quite rapidly once they start. You don't have to shoot these. You can buy feral pigeons for the retrieves. Another coop for the quail if you need something to fill every last second of free time that you have!

[lugmastro]

I haven't tried pigeons, but quail have worked well for me. I will buy a few birds for training, and then go to a preserve with a young dog early in the season. After that my dogs learn through experience with wild birds. That has worked for me, but I know many people here swear by pigeons.

[RayGubernat]

Unless you have good, strong flying quail, you are far better off using pigeons for most of your training work on dogs that are six months of age or older.

Pigeons will almost never land on the ground, so it is highly improbable that a dog will catch them. In fact , letting a dog chase pigeons until its tongue hangs out down to its toes, is a very good way of taking the chase out of a dog. They learn that chasing them is useless, unrewarding and a waste of energy. The then learn that just standing there and letting the pigeon fly off gets them an attaboy and a pat on the flank and boss is happy.

Then once you get them to stand there and wait for you, you can teach them that the hunter/handler and their magic boom stick make those birds go down, so they can get to wrap their gums around it every once in a while. And pretty quick you got yourself a bird dog.

One weak flying quail that allow itself to be caught can put the idea in the dog's mind that they can catch the little stinkers...and then you got a job on your hands. Instead of having a dog convinced that chasing is fruitless and that it is better to stand and wait for the boss and his magic stick, you now have a dog that says "HEY...Maybe I can catch me another one of those!"

Most dogs that have caught birds can be convinced that it is better for them to point, hold and wait for you, but it will take pressure. Most dogs will always have that idea lurking somewhere in the back of their minds and will occasionally take one out, even though they know that is not what you want and even though they know they will be disciplined for it. Some few dogs will never stop trying to catch birds, no matter what.

RayG

[kar6man]

My next question as to using pigeons for training: can you spin them as can be done with chukar and pheasant prior to planting them for training or is a launcher required? Also any preference to breeds? I understand homers would be nice as to returning, is there a cheaper breed for just shooting during training?

[AZ Brittany Guy]

My next question as to using pigeons for training: can you spin them as can be done with chukar and pheasant prior to planting them for training or is a launcher required? Also any preference to breeds? I understand homers would be nice as to returning, is there a cheaper breed for just shooting during training?

Pigeons are tough birds. You can spin or shake them and not hurt them. Many trainers tuck their head under their wing and pump their chest a little to put them to sleep. My experience is pigeons will home to the place where they were born. If a breeding pair nest and have chicks they will return to their chicks.

[Tooling]

Be very judicious w/the use of Quail - if they came from a supplier who has them flight conditioned and they are good strong flyers all is good. If you keep them in anything other than a flight pen the clock is ticking on how quickly they will simply stop flying reliably. One time too many on birds that don't fly is all it can take to go backwards w/your dog in a hurry and this can take a lot of time to "cure" and is also an unnecessary "issue" that could have been prevented - don't ask me how I know

[Sharon]

Be very judicious w/the use of Quail - if they came from a supplier who has them flight conditioned and they are good strong flyers all is good. If you keep them in anything other than a flight pen the clock is ticking on how quickly they will simply stop flying reliably. One time too many on birds that don't fly is all it can take to go backwards w/your dog in a hurry and this can take a lot of time to "cure" and is also an unnecessary "issue" that could have been prevented - don't ask me how I know

Very good point. No flight pen here as I live in the city. When training , I buy only enough pigeons, ( kept in a dog crate in the garage), to be used up in 3-4 days. After that you can't count on them to fly hard either.

[Tooling]

A flight pen really is the way to go - I don't have one yet but I have one of those make-shift instant garage tarp covered things to keep stuff out of the rain. It's getting pretty shabby but the frame-work is pristine...figure that may be a good way to re-purpose the thing with little work and a small investment into netting material. I want Chukars!!

[Munster]

I dont like quail for young, unforce fetched dogs because quail make a cool sqeaking sound if any pressure is applied to the b the dog. Thus, making it a fun chewy thing. I use quail for older FFed/steady dogs.

[Sharon]

A flight pen really is the way to go - I don't have one yet but I have one of those make-shift instant garage tarp covered things to keep stuff out of the rain. It's getting pretty shabby but the frame-work is pristine...figure that may be a good way to re-purpose the thing with little work and a small investment into netting material. I want Chukars!!

Good idea. Where I am it's the bylaws that keep your birds in a crate in the corner of the garage. God forbid that one should escape causing you to have to play stupid with the neighbour.

[campgsp]

Pigeons are easier to keep. I only use quail as shooting birds.
If your worried thinking if you only train with pigeon that your dog won't find quail later on. Don't..
It's in their blood. They'll find any game bird your in chase of.