Whoa and sit...

[Vikingoo168]

Any words of wisdom regarding when to incorporate the sit command in your pups training. Started with whoa and he doing pretty good I just don't want to confuse him. (5 month old GSP)

Thanks!!

[birddog1968]

Why teach sit...I've never taught sit to any birddog.... Never found it necessary and plenty of them were house dogs.....

[Bluesky2012]

I taught my GSP sit right off the bat because I use him as much in a duck blind as for upland. I find it necessary. The debate of not teaching them sit because it could affect whoa doesn't seem to be much of an issue if you spend enough time making sure the dog understands each separately. The risk is the dog laying down or sitting when pressure is used to correct the dog. If you're concerned, teach both but don't use an e collar to reinforce sit, but do so for whoa (however your program teaches that). Then after enough time on upland birds the dog will know what's expected on point and won't sit even when corrected. You can then later enforce sit if you go that direction.

[Bluesky2012]

Also when pressured and confused, a dog tends to resort to their last taught and enforced command, so if your dog begins to accidentally sit on whoa, lay off sit for a bit, just whoa, and it won't happen again. I had my dog have that issue during yard work after I force fetched him following a retriever program. Never actually caused any issues quail hunting, but for a day or two he confused sit and whoa because he was still stressed from FF. Easy fix though.

[DonF]

Sit means sit, whoa means stop and stand still. I teach both and sit come's first. If your dog sit's on a situation where is shouldn't, your either pressuring the dog or confusing it. I've never had a dog that wouldn't sit on command. But the other side is if you have no use for the command, why train it? Sit is a control command.

[SubMariner]

Also when pressured and confused, a dog tends to resort to their last taught and enforced command, so if your dog begins to accidentally sit on whoa, lay off sit for a bit, just whoa, and it won't happen again. I had my dog have that issue during yard work after I force fetched him following a retriever program. Never actually caused any issues quail hunting, but for a day or two he confused sit and whoa because he was still stressed from FF. Easy fix though.

I have lost count of the number of times I have heard the mantra "don't teach your dog to sit or he will do that in the field". BOTH my dogs are in obedience & field work and NEITHER "accidentally sit[s] on whoa". Dogs that are anxious go into a submissive posture that has nothing to do with whether or not they were "taught to sit".

What about lying down? I've seen dogs do that in the field under pressure and I'm fairly certain they were never taught to do that.

Not trying to be argumentative; just tired of hearing what is essentially an urban myth put forth as fact.

[RoostersMom]

My Pointer would "sit" on birds for the first couple of weeks when working her on birds. I attribute that to my overzealous use of "sit" at home and not as much "whoa" work. When pressured, she would sit. She stopped that after a couple of weeks once she got her attitude back.

I teach "whoa" first - and some dogs I don't even bother with "sit." My Vizsla knows it all, but he doesn't have issues on birds either.

[birddog1968]

Having trained professionally you'd be surprised how many dogs sit after owners drill that into them. In the context of paying someone to start a dog , it wastes valuable training time that didnt need wasted. I can understand it for versatile dogs but it could still wait until initial training is thru. Growing up with labs always looked at sit as step 1 ....reflecting on it later its a control command I just don't need in a birddog. Just my 2 cents.

[Vonzeppelinkennels]

I know that there are more then one pro trainers that feel the same as you birddoog 1968!! even though it makes them a little extra money! I'm not a pro but I don't see a reason to teach a pointing dog to sit in the first place but just MO.

[Sharon]

I've always taught both and never found it to be a problem. I like a dog that lives in the house to know to sit when told. I know folks say that the dog will sit in the field when confused , and wanting to avoid trouble but , I've just never seen that happen.

[birddog1968]

As pups i put them on a leash inside the house in the evenings. When I am watching TV or reading or on the computer I put the leash under or around my foot. As young ones they will fuss but when they calm down and lay by my feet I give them praise and a bone or something they like and tell them "gooood". Tonight as i sit here I have 3 quiet dogs laying near'ish to my feet being good dogs.

As they get older if they are bugging me I tell them "go lay down" and they know exactly where they are supposed to lay.


That said I can understand sit for dogs to be used as waterfowl retrievers....

[AZ Brittany Guy]

I never teach sit. I never found it necessary....of course I don't duck hunt.

[Bluesky2012]

Also when pressured and confused, a dog tends to resort to their last taught and enforced command, so if your dog begins to accidentally sit on whoa, lay off sit for a bit, just whoa, and it won't happen again. I had my dog have that issue during yard work after I force fetched him following a retriever program. Never actually caused any issues quail hunting, but for a day or two he confused sit and whoa because he was still stressed from FF. Easy fix though.

I have lost count of the number of times I have heard the mantra "don't teach your dog to sit or he will do that in the field". BOTH my dogs are in obedience & field work and NEITHER "accidentally sit[s] on whoa". Dogs that are anxious go into a submissive posture that has nothing to do with whether or not they were "taught to sit".

What about lying down? I've seen dogs do that in the field under pressure and I'm fairly certain they were never taught to do that.

Not trying to be argumentative; just tired of hearing what is essentially an urban myth put forth as fact.

Not sure that you read my entire post past what you quoted but what I wrote is exactly what you just tried to argue. Like I said it's not an obedience issue but a pressure issue.
I don't see a reason not to teach sit for a versatile dog. Is it necessary for a pointer? No. Necessary for a duck dog? Absolutely. I'd hate to see my dog in the whoa position on his timber stand for hours. Sitting is easier.

[DonF]

One of the unfortunate things about a pointer is that many people thing the only thing necessary for them is to come when called and run all they can. My old shorthairs were all obedience trained. They not only sat on command or with hand signals but they would like down and come in and stop coming in. There is non reason pointing dogs can't be obedience trained without risking problem of pressure. And be sure two things cause a dog to sit on whoa, pressure and confusion. Eliminate them and the dog stops and stands still. it is also certainly fine not to teach a dog much obedience, sit. won't ruin the dog but to those that aren't sure, teach sit. Then understand if the dog sits when you don't want it to the problem is you, not the dog!

[Trekmoor]

I have never found that training dogs to sit means they will sit when on point. I don't put pressure on a dog on point .... I don't even teach dogs to "Whoa" they just do when they have had sufficient experience of pointing wild birds. I do require the dog to sit , maybe when flighting ducks, geese or pigeons or when picking-up at shoots so even my Hunt-point-retrievers are taught to sit.

In some other situations when I blow the stop whistle, the dog does stop but it remains standing. I think most retriever trainers will have seen their dogs do this many times ?

Bill T.

[birddogger]

IMO, it is not a matter of right or wrong or should or shouldn't. But rather the sequence in which the commands are taught that could prevent a potential problem down the road. Having said that, I don't teach my dogs to sit but it has nothing to do with thinking it may cause a problem. I just don't have a reason or need to. If I want to teach whoa and sit both, I will teach whoa first. In fact, I would make "sit" the last or near last obedience command taught. Just talking pointing dogs here and again, JMO.

Charlie

[DonF]

You guy's all need to get a setter. They know the difference between sitting down and standing still!